Arri's New Camera

[NorBro]

If the BM Pocket camera is on your shoulder with the touch screen behind your head how can you quickly and accurately access the touch screen if is it next to or behind your head (probably way behind if balancing a 17-120 cine zoom)? I can access all the primary cameras controls with buttons on my Amira without taking it off my shoulder. Due to the shape and size of the Amira it also means the buttons a camera don’t have to be way behind my head.

Obviously that kind of camera is not made to be on your shoulder.

There are 12 years worth of debates on here about why cameras built for shoulder use are built for shoulder use, and how small boxes will never be the same.

 

[Guest]

Obviously that kind of camera is not made to be...

now you are on our side.

 

[NorBro]

Yes, teaching Eric the difference between shapes teaches you about touchscreens.

 

[ahalpert]

Hopefully Elon Musk will finish developing his Neuralink soon and we can finally control cameras by telepathy as God intended

 

[NorBro]

Those comments about the communication were interesting because no one else has really said anything like that in a very long time (at least not in that context, I don't think). Like you could have predicted something similar in 1980-ish and off the cuff say humans will be telepathic one day, but I think it's super strange the way he talked about it.

He's skipping AI and going straight to aliens, lol.

 

[ahalpert]

Right well supposedly the camera operator version will come out later. First they're working on helping out stroke victims etc.

"The chip could potentially be used to restore eyesight, hearing, and limb movement in addition to addressing diseases that affect the brain, Musk claims. The device would be implanted directly into the skull to enable electrode threads to interface with certain areas of the brain, according to Musk."

https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-neuralink-brain-chip-put-in-human-within-year-2020-5

 

[NorBro]

I didn't know you were serious about the camera part.

 

[ahalpert]

Yeah I'm just joking about the camera part, that's not being planned the conversation was getting too heated for my tastes.

Still, wouldn't that be cool if you could change all your settings by thinking about it?

 

[Eric Coughlin]

So we all agree. Touch screens are crap for shoulder mount use. Aside from ENG, I do shoulder mount for perhaps 40% of shots for narrative. So, a “cinema” camera that relies too heavily on touch screen and out of reach buttons is crap for 40% of shots for my narrative work. Which means they’re crappy cameras for how I often shoot narrative.

If someone else does not need good shoulder mount ergonomics, a non-shoulder mount friendly camera may work for them.

 

[NorBro]

So we all agree. Touch screens are crap for shoulder mount use. Aside from ENG, I do shoulder mount for perhaps 40% of shots for narrative. So, a “cinema” camera that relies too heavily on touch screen and out of reach buttons is crap for 40% of shots for my narrative work. Which means they’re crappy cameras for how I often shoot narrative.

If someone else does not need good shoulder mount ergonomics, a non-shoulder mount friendly camera may work for them.

That's a nice way to put it.

Just out of curiosity, would you be interested in some buttons (A-B-C-D and a control wheel for your thumb in the back of the lens grip like on the 17-120mm if they could control things like shutter, WB, etc?

RED's DSMC2 side handle is my favorite handle of all time, something similar to that. (I see some controls on the Canon grip in the picture below, but I never used the lens so have no idea what they do.)

 

[John Brawley]

I'm pretty sure I mentioned they were intuitive. My posts are still on this same page. And I have also said that touch screens are fast. just not as fast as dedicated hot keys. This is not a source of contention in video games or editing. Why are camera people supposed to be different?

I am unclear why you disagree? I am not disagreeing with touch screen users, I am just saying that is isn't the bench mark for pro camera operators in ENG, Doc, or Verite settings where split second operator decisions matter.

There are keys and dials for the kinds of functions you want to change while shooting on the pocket ?

I think of the screen as a menu for changing parameters that are less often used. Setup parameters. Functions you set once for the show and never touch again till the next one.

Rarely should you need to interact with a pocket touch screen while you’re shopping, but even if you did, it’s very fast compared to any other text based menu screen on any other camera I can think of. Si2k menu was similar I guess.

I don’t get this constant banter.

JB

 

[Guest]

There are keys and dials for the kinds of functions you want to change while shooting on the pocket ?

I think of the screen as a menu for changing parameters that are less often used. Setup parameters. Functions you set once for the show and never touch again till the next one.

Rarely should you need to interact with a pocket touch screen while you’re shopping, but even if you did, it’s very fast compared to any other text based menu screen on any other camera I can think of. Si2k menu was similar I guess.

I don’t get this constant banter.

JB

I agree with you 100%

It was Norbro that made it sound like I was anti Black Magic.

The BM pockets having buttons is a great attribute that is often not talked about in discussions because everyone is talking about the touch screen menus. All of the controls are a big plus. I already said that Red's touch screen is also not always the best for Verite style shooters. I wasn't singling out BM. It has been popular to stress the advantages of the touch screen lately, I was just remarking that touch screen isn't for everything. And we can't forget good physical controls. At least until Tesla makes a mind meld controller.

 

[NorBro]

It was Norbro that made it sound like I was anti Black Magic.

No, bro.

You're a peculiar fellow and always twisting everything in every direction with conflicting thoughts by the time any "discussion" is over.

I was minding my own business and you decided to quote me with this:

I find touch screens intuitive, but ultimately slower in real world use. As a pro shooter, I find touch screens annoying. this goes for Red and BM. Short learning curve is good for amateurs, but eventually we want performance. like using hot keys in Davinci. The whole BM touch screen thing is over blown and only applies to users who are new to cameras. Because in all honesty, hot keys have always been faster, in programs and a cameras for decades.

 

[yoclay]

lol.

There is absolutely no way on God's green earth you're switching your camera settings faster than I am with the Pocket 6K.

Yeah, nothing like having a touchscreen being blocked by the battery, a loupe or behind your head when it's on your shoulder. Just love it.
Why push a few buttons which you know by feel and by heart on the side of the camera, when you can have a wire poking into your ear and be obliged to put the rig down in order to change a setting ? Super.

 

[NorBro]

Yeah, nothing like having a touchscreen being blocked by the battery or behind your head when it's on your shoulder. Just love it.
Why push a few buttons on the side of the camera when you can have a wire poking into your ear or put the rig down in order to change a setting. Super.

Keep reading. Two more pages.

 

[Guest]

No, bro.

You're a peculiar fellow and always twisting everything in every direction with conflicting thoughts by the time any "discussion" is over.

I was minding my own business and you decided to quote me with this:

you go from calling my opinions "simple minded" to being offended that I say you make me out to be anti black magic. different scales. Now you call me a "peculiar fellow". Am I twisting your words? I believe the touch screen system is overblown. not saying it sucks or is useless, just getting too much attention, and I see people glossing over the advantages of hot keys.

The one advantage the touch screen has over physical keys and knobs is deeper menu items. But since these menu items are seldom used, there is less a penalty for having a slower menu system with buttons, than there is with having to control basic cameras settings with a GUI.

I am not twisting your words, or changing my opinion. No matter how much you want to make it seem that way.

I quoted you because you are one of the most out spoken about the BM touch screen here on dvx, and you have many good points about it, I was just counter-pointing with my opinion.

 

[John Brawley]

It was Norbro that made it sound like I was anti Black Magic.

The BM pockets having buttons is a great attribute that is often not talked about in discussions because everyone is talking about the touch screen menus. All of the controls are a big plus. I already said that Red's touch screen is also not always the best for Verite style shooters. I wasn't singling out BM. It has been popular to stress the advantages of the touch screen lately, I was just remarking that touch screen isn't for everything.

Actually your words are much stronger than that.

You posit an opinion as fact. I've underlined to help the visibility of what I mean

Just that a lot of people go around praising the intuitiveness of the touch screen, but that is only for new users and those that have the extra milliseconds.

I am just saying that is isn't the bench mark for pro camera operators in ENG, Doc,

Over blown for pro or power users? yes, 10000%.

touch screen is great for beginners and more casual shooting.

James that's strong language. It's emphatic. It tells anyone reading that they are not a PRO, they are not a POWER USER, they are NEW USERS, they are not using the BENCHMARK and that have a lot of time on set if they like using touch screens. Is it true ?

You're saying I am not a pro, not a power user, a new user and am not using a industry benchmark and have a lot of time on set because i happen to think differently to you about a touch screen. You see where this is going ?

These are personal opinions, but many have a contrary opinion to those views. But you post them as fact. That's why you'e hearing boisterously from "PROS" (your words), people that are not "BEGINNERS" (your words) that don't agree with your "BENCHMARK" (your words) who think otherwise from YOUR opinion with opinions of their own.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Just don't be surprised to get pushback when you make general statements like this based on your own views and experience as if they applied to all.

JB

 

[NorBro]

you go from calling my opinions "simple minded" to being offended that I say you make me out to be anti black magic. different scales. Now you call me a "peculiar fellow". Am I twisting your words? I believe the touch screen system is overblown. not saying it sucks or is useless, just getting too much attention, and I see people glossing over the advantages of hot keys.

The one advantage the touch screen has over physical keys and knobs is deeper menu items. But since these menu items are seldom used, there is less a penalty for having a slower menu system with buttons, than there is with having to control basic cameras settings with a GUI.

I am not twisting your words, or changing my opinion. No matter how much you want to make it seem that way.

I quoted you because you are one of the most out spoken about the BM touch screen here on dvx, and you have many good points about it, I was just counter-pointing with my opinion.

It's just the way you write.

You always take these little shots when you quote me and then when I "show my teeth", you back down and play, "What, what, what did I do???".

I'm not going to be engaging with you anymore because it's never productive.

 

[Guest]

Actually your words are much stronger than that.

You posit an opinion as fact. I've underlined to help the visibility of what I mean










James that's strong language. It's emphatic. It tells anyone reading that they are not a PRO, they are not a POWER USER, they are NEW USERS, they are not using the BENCHMARK and that have a lot of time on set.

You're saying I am not a pro, not a power user, a new user and am not using a industry benchmark and have a lot of time on set because i happen to think differently to you about a touch screen. You see where this is going ?

These are personal opinions, but many have a contrary opinion to those views. But you post them as fact. That's why you'e hearing boisterously from "PROS" (your words), people that are not "BEGINNERS" (your words) that don't agree with your "BENCHMARK" (your words) who think otherwise from YOUR opinion with opinions of their own.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Just don't be surprised to get pushback when you make general statements like this based on your own views and experience.

JB

You are omitting my other comments.

Speed of shooting is better served by hot keys. I don't feel that is opinion. There are exceptions, of course. As I mentioned, Studio or VFX work may not need the instant changes. Big Hollywood VFX is not "just beginners". I also agreed that changing lesser used feature benefit from a GUI. You can go back and read all of my comments and not ommit my other statements.

 

[Guest]

It's just the way you write.

You always take these little shots when you quote me and then when I "show my teeth", you back down and play, "What, what, what did I do???".

I'm not going to be engaging with you anymore because it's never productive.

Just based on the last few posts/pages, how are you the victim? That is what I meant about your teeth all those months ago. you aren't just being completely passive. You say things like my opinion is "simple minded" but then act offended that I say you are making it seem like I am anti black magic. I am anti touch screen. I dislike the way Red over relies on touch screen. And I dislike the way people act like the GUI is better than the hotkeys. In editing and video games, and even in cars, physical controls are typically preferred when the operator wants control.