Arri AMIRA

Liam Hall said:
That said, I couldn't agree less with your comment here. I'd say, this is the first large sensor camera designed with both the operator and professional workflows in mind. It ticks a lot of boxes for me.
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Yep it is a fantastic cam no doubt. It ticks many boxes, heaps of boxes. But to para phrase Henry Ford it is a carriage with more horses, (what the public thought they wanted), but not a car, which is what Mr Ford alone new that public actually wanted.

We could have all specced it out on an envelope; nice codec, high FPS, better ergonomics, less annoying wires, better sound, cheaper.

The job of a designer is to deliver more than the envelope specs of users. Garret Brown did not invent a smoother dolly, he invented a Steadicam..

S
 
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morgan_moore said:
Yep it is a fantastic cam no doubt. It ticks many boxes, heaps of boxes. But to para phrase Henry Ford it is a carriage with more horses, (what the public thought they wanted), but not a car, which is what Mr Ford alone new that public actually wanted.

We could have all specced it out on an envelope; nice codec, high FPS, better ergonomics, less annoying wires, better sound, cheaper.

The job of a designer is to deliver more than the envelope specs of users. Garret Brown did not invent a smoother dolly, he invented a Steadicam..

S
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It is more than the envelope specs for me.

It mainly comes down to one magical thing: the image.

That - combined with the tank like, single-user intuitive design that makes Arri distinctly professional oriented.

Have no doubt, no one has managed that dual gain architecture + olpf filter + color science integration that has put Alexa above all else.
 
morgan_moore said:
But to para phrase Henry Ford it is a carriage with more horses, (what the public thought they wanted), but not a car, which is what Mr Ford alone new that public actually wanted
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I'm not after a game changing camera. There are plenty of players in the market for that type of thing. I want something I can put to work. Something I can rely on. Something that works the way I need it to rather than the other way round.

BTW you know Henry Ford was an antisemite who funded Adopph Hitler's rise to power. O/T but not a lot of people know that.
 
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I appologise if the ford reference is upsetting to some.

My dock shoot yesterday the footage is Shakey. My shoulder is beat. I was trying to ramp the sound gain blind behind my ear with buttons I could not find. I did not have quality focus tools. My lenses did not have the reach I wanted.

.. And I hope I'm a good shooter and my cam is very well configured

The cabrio would help, the arri a little bit. But I would still have been better with my ex1!

I just don't get how you don't desire a lot more from a camera!

im talking doc shooting here - fast moving actuality which is what arri say the cam is for..
 
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Lets stay on topic,

It's nice to see ARRI test out new markets for the ALEXA sensor. The lens mount reminds me of the epics being 4 bolts and a quick swap. The only downside I see is the alexa menu system is in the LCD, where everything is knobs with I II III. But knowing ARRI it's prob better for run and gun. This is gonna make a lot of doc and broadcast guys happy, and some cinema guys too. Great job to ARRI.
 
- Lighter than Alexa
- you can use rocker zoom with cabrio- sure canon will have similar PL with servo at NAB 2014
- Menus can be operated from buttons on viewfinder
- Has peaking for focus in addition false color is fantastic for exposure
- same sensor as Alexa does indeed model itself after a film camera-- great latitude, great color rendition, smooth roll off.
 
morgan_moore said:
I appologise if the ford reference is upsetting to some.
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It wasn't. I did say my comment was off topic.

morgan_moore said:
I just don't get how you don't desire a lot more from a camera!

im talking doc shooting here - fast moving actuality which is what arri say the cam is for..
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Doc shooting encompasses many different styles; 2/3rd inch chip cameras, 1/2 inch and 1/3rd inch cameras all have their place and are the best tool in certain situations, as are DSLRs, GoPros and everything else. I see this camera as a workhorse for interviews and quality B-Roll, but it will also find it's way onto sets shooting commercials, drama and music videos. Pretty much everything. It has proven image quality, proven build quality and now the ergonomics (and hopefully price-point) to make it a very attractive offering.
 
Policar - what you are writing feels like I am writing it - I share completely the same thoughts on everything you said. A big +1
 
Pellucid said:
- Lighter than Alexa
- you can use rocker zoom with cabrio- sure canon will have similar PL with servo at NAB 2014
- Menus can be operated from buttons on viewfinder
- Has peaking for focus in addition false color is fantastic for exposure
- same sensor as Alexa does indeed model itself after a film camera-- great latitude, great color rendition, smooth roll off.
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Liam Hall said:
Doc shooting encompasses many different styles; 2/3rd inch chip cameras, 1/2 inch and 1/3rd inch cameras all have their place and are the best tool in certain situations, as are DSLRs, GoPros and everything else. I see this camera as a workhorse for interviews and quality B-Roll, but it will also find it's way onto sets shooting commercials, drama and music videos. Pretty much everything. It has proven image quality, proven build quality and now the ergonomics (and hopefully price-point) to make it a very attractive offering.
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Hey guys I totally get this camera, I love the whole physical feel of the Alexa - which is a professional tool not a toy - I assume this will be the same; so many other cameras don't even hit the base point of being tools that could in any way be called tools before you consider their image, I also get the alexa image - im not a peeper and know that vision has only one test - the joy of viewing - a joy that no numbers reveal

To have that Alexa wonderment in a smaller lighter cheaper higher FPS package is awesome.

But I also have a vision for 'solo cinema', 'cinematic ENG' or whatever you might call it - it is a vision that I have been pursuing since the launch week of the nikon D90 !

And that pursuit has been a very very bumpy ride - any honest operator will admit that taking S35 into the world is a scary challenge and on occasions will think 'where is my EX1 when I need it'

Now IMO the camera 'facs are still only beginning to scratch the surface of building 'solo cinema' cameras, doubtless the new Arri is one of the furthest down that road.

Liam 'doc shooting has different styles': absolutely I can see a gopro or whatever is different - but my shoot yesterday was a simple 6hour coverage of an event with some interviews - I would say it sits right in the normal middle, not a mountain or a warzone or a covert op but simple event coverage in a 'cinematic style' and Im saying that shake, lack of range, mass, and audio pots behind my head did not make my day easy.

Pell

- you can use rocker zoom with cabrio- sure canon will have similar PL with servo at NAB 2014

Im not intersted in a zoom rocker - I use zooms, but not when im rolling - I have no argument

- Menus can be operated from buttons on viewfinder

Better than most but I defy you to change something handheld without disturbing your shot - they need to be on a handgrip

- Has peaking for focus in addition false color is fantastic for exposure

Peaking is good for 2/3 and smaller but IMO S35 stresses your focus skill to the max - to me a handle activated, non centred, 1:1 viewing mode is required to properly confirm focus

- same sensor as Alexa does indeed model itself after a film camera-- great latitude, great color rendition, smooth roll off.

I agree the image will be awesome - I have no argument.

--

Now Im in the business of changing camera right now, probably the Arri will exceed my budget, an F5/55/Scarlet wont however, but I have some feeling that a FS700 and recorder (2k 10bit prores) may be better than a 5/55/Scarlet for 'cinematic doco'- Why on earth? Simply it is lighter and has IS and AF and the Speedbooster available - sure 90% I dont use/want them, but 10% I do. And the lightness - I want that every day. The gear whore in me wants the full metal camera, but another rational voice rings in my head too

I think the Arris is maybe missing - to marry the 1990s solidity but also to cherry pick some stuff from the iphone era, be that intelligent focus check, less button GUI, accelerometer data for post stabilisation, digital level in viewfinder, whatever..

Imagine that, face rec software and focus check button 'knows' where to zoom in
 
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Lee Saxon said:
Why the assumption that the former can't also be the latter?
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I see that desire too - just a camera that does not have basic flaws - like the F5/55 HF socket being placed by a drunken darts player not an industrial designer

We all want a base minimum that is so often missing from non Arri stuff.
 
It may spread the data over 8000px in the image file, that is very different from resolving 8k lines.

IMO the '2k' arri is not so far behind '4k' sony

s
 
This may have been echoed earlier in this thread, but I think that just because Arri is calling this a doc/run and gun camera doesn't necessarily mean that it is going to be predominantly used that way. It's hard to see how this won't become popular as an everyday acquisition camera for many episodic series (and indie to low-budget features) that have no need to shoot beyond ProRes 4444 and 1080/2K, either as a B or C body or even as the primary body. For shows that shoot a lot of handheld and Steadicam, this represents a win-win especially as the rental rate will be cheaper than the Alexa. We used to have a similar paradigm in the film days, with a studio A camera and lightweight B camera (Arricam ST and LT, Panavision Platinum and XL etc); the real key here is that the cameras can provide identical images. I for one am jazzed to check out this camera and am quite sure I will be using it down the road.

I agree with Sam that a truly progressive run-and-gun S35 camera would incorporate more state of the art focusing aids as that situation is a big pickle, but I wouldn't look to Arri to pioneer that--it feels more like a RED concept.
 
morgan_moore said:
It may spread the data over 8000px in the image file, that is very different from resolving 8k lines.
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F65 has around 6K sensor, same as Dragon. It can do 8K video by upsampling 6K to 8K. ALEXA has 3.5K sensor but shoots downsampled 2K. F55 is 4K

8K sensor would need to be 33 megapixels (same as FF Nikon D800) on APSC/super 35mm size sensor. No such sensor exists yet, but upcoming Sony still cameras next month (late october) (Nex and next year Alpha) would be around 32 MP APSC that can shoot 14 frames per second full resolution (at least the sensor can read that fast). If they can add 10 more fps to that number, that would get close to 8K 24 fps
 
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I'd also like to point out that unlike all the competitors, this camera can easily fall down a flight of stairs and be picked right back up. That can be the difference between being daring for an extreme docu shot or having something break and having to pack up and go home.

And anyone who says a system running to an external recorder with a cable is an acceptable docu camera has never been in a tight and have a cable loop around an edge of something.
 
TomLenham said:
Bloody 4k? Who cares? Really? Broadcasters don't care about 4k - remember most of them still transmit in SD, so it's really pointless to try to add 4k for this camera; it's clearly designed for TV acquisition. if you need 4k, rent an Alexa and make a movie for the big screen. Or buy an F5 and shoot your friend's friends skateboarding on it. Stop banging on about bloody 4K! We're ten years away from 4K for consumers! {/rant}
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Not for movies or television shows. Not for in-store videos (where 4K is coming in fast - you may laugh but budgets for these are climbing for national brands to above 200K in some cases). Here in North America there are basically no SD networks watched by anyone under 50, and youtueb is a common destination for music videos, and the client expects 1080p. I cannot remember the last time I saw a household with an SD TV in it except maybe in the kitchen. 4K allows you to recrop, to stabilize better, to make complex color grades and composites better (including green screen, but not only) to auto-track objects better.... even when you are mastering to 1080p.
 
Policar said:
Why would anyone settle for a Dragon when they could have an Alexa?

I agree this form factor is ideal. Most serious ops and ACs I work with consider the current Alexa to be the strongest camera ergonomically (and generally hate dSLRs/the C300), but the Alexa is a pain to operate handheld and the size, fully outfitted, makes me uncomfortable. I dislike the Alexa's poor battery life, too. So I'm a dSLR fan. :)

That said, my C100 (essentially a dSLR in terms of form factor) feels awful handheld with a long lens, though I like it with a short zoom... Arri's form factor and weight here seem ideal for most lenses, and I think everyone is going to love it, people moving up from dSLRs and people moving down from F65s alike...

The lack of RAW is not a big deal. Posting with it is a nightmare and the file sizes are too big. LOG C is perfect in Prores. The quality of the sensor and gain path make Arri's prores way more flexible than REDCODE (which can't handle foliage or fine skin detail all that well, anyway) for posting any competently shot footage. The latitude is insane... I know it's the DP not the camera, but when Alexa footage so consistently outstrips footage from any other system, you know something is up. The Alexa is so well-designed it elevates the DP's game and makes post easy, too. If camera doesn't matter why is anything shot competently on the Alexa immediately identifiable, as is footage originating on film (which I still prefer best tbh)? Saying it's all the DP doesn't give Arri's brilliant engineers enough credit. It's all the DP up to the level of competence, past that lenses and cameras matter quite a lot!

I love Arri's FFs, the M18, etc. and I'm sure I'd love their lenses if I had the money to try them. Their gear is so operator-friendly. This is going to be great, except every rich kid will own an Alexa now!
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Dragon is:

In a lighter, more Steadicam and Movi/small jib/octocopter friendly box.

Has much more resolution

Can, with an external recorder for $400 record prores, just like this guy, while simulataneously recording RedRAW

RedCode RAW 5K, at GOOD compessions that work (not too much) is about the same size as ProRes 2K.

Dragon has more dynamic range than an Alexa, and far more sensitivity in low light.

Shooting RAW opens up myriad post-prod opportunities, shooting 6K RAW opens up even more.
 
Slaters said:
I'd also like to point out that unlike all the competitors, this camera can easily fall down a flight of stairs and be picked right back up. That can be the difference between being daring for an extreme docu shot or having something break and having to pack up and go home.

And anyone who says a system running to an external recorder with a cable is an acceptable docu camera has never been in a tight and have a cable loop around an edge of something.
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Mate - I hate cables - it to me is A big reason to get the f5 not the 700 and baggage.

to be fair on the little Sony cams they seem quite hardy even thought they feel like they are made from recycled sweet wrappers

I said the AF and IS and low mass of the Fs700 could actually be better for docs that is all.

As for chucking a camera down the stairs - well - I've got most of those tee shirts and can safely report that having a spare is always "strongest", and at the Arri price points/mass most are not going to carry a spare.
 
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