Are you making money?

PaPa

PaPa

Major Contributor
I am curious to know how you videographers and filmmakers out there are finding gigs which eventually pay for your equipment.

There was a comment in the HMC150 section where a camera was basically paid for after 2 short gigs.

Has anyone else gone through similar experiences, and if so i would love for you to share what kind of jobs they were, how you managed to gain access to these jobs, and what would be the best way of going about it.

Up to date, i have done only a few corporate gigs and they have been few and far between, with not very high pay.

It's time to broaden my work and income with all i have invested in time and equipment.

Thanks!

-J
 
I don't do much direct client videography anymore, but when I was doing it, corporate films paid on average $12,000 to $20,000 each; my typical costs might be $3,000 to $5,000 on those. For local commercials I'd get anywhere from $1500 for a one-day shoot/edit/turn it in, to $10,000 for little commercials; I did a package of regional commercials a few times and those were in the $20k range; bigger commercials for bigger clients could be $50k to $100k. I did the video playback/shooting/coordination for a pharmaceuticals company convention once, I think I charged $25k for that for three days' work and spent maybe $7k on support staff and equipment rentals. A day rate for shooting convention coverage with a DVX, one-man-band, was $800; with an audio guy & equipment it was $1200. That's been several years though; I haven't done any of this type of work since moving out of Vegas so hopefully others will weigh in with their experiences.
 
I don't do much direct client videography anymore, but when I was doing it, corporate films paid on average $12,000 to $20,000 each; my typical costs might be $3,000 to $5,000 on those. For local commercials I'd get anywhere from $1500 for a one-day shoot/edit/turn it in, to $10,000 for little commercials; I did a package of regional commercials a few times and those were in the $20k range; bigger commercials for bigger clients could be $50k to $100k. I did the video playback/shooting/coordination for a pharmaceuticals company convention once, I think I charged $25k for that for three days' work and spent maybe $7k on support staff and equipment rentals. A day rate for shooting convention coverage with a DVX, one-man-band, was $800; with an audio guy & equipment it was $1200. That's been several years though; I haven't done any of this type of work since moving out of Vegas so hopefully others will weigh in with their experiences.
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Barry's Figures are still relevant. I have seen similar pricing structures this past year, but I am in a very small market.

I get 1200.00 for a :30 second local commercial
Corporates range 6-15K for web videos or DVD production. I am doing a lot of straight to web work.
I book primarily through ad agencies.


Up to date, i have done only a few corporate gigs and they have been few and far between, with not very high pay.
Click to expand...

Corporate gigs traditionally pay a bit better then live shoots or local ad work.

I will say this. No one will value your work for you. I believe you need to set your price based an a very honest assessment of your skill set and the market rate. A very conservative rate for corporate gigs is $1,000 per finished minute. SO if you are producing a company PR DVD with BRoll and Talking heads that is 5 minutes long you should at least be getting 5K for the project. That is as a one mane band shooting/editing/delivering. Multiple shoot days and additional crew/grip package can add to that number quickly.

Evaluate your market rate and then factor in your proficiency. Set your rate and stick to it. DISCOUNTS ARE PERMANANT IN THIS BUSINESS. Anytime someone tells you to just do this first job at a reduced rate and then we will get the next "bigger Project" a full rate. It will never happen.

I have turned jobs where the money was not right. I once told a clinet to save his money and call me when he was serious. As much as clients don't like to here that word got around that if you want my expertise you will pay a very fair rate for it. I have also dropped clients when I did not like the working relationship. I did their first project and when they called again I said I was not interested. Clients hate that, but if you dont value what you do know one else will. Set your terms and respect them and you should have your gear payed for in no time.
 
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Connections are always key. Could be trough your relatives or friends etc. Ask around if some of your friends dads work in a potential company that might need a corporate video for example.

Another type of connection:
I work together with a website designer/programmer. When his clients want a film, he asks me. If I have a client that wants a website, I recommend him.

My upcoming gig is for a plastic surgeon, which needs a video tour for his clinic. Pays half of my HVX :) Got the job through the web designer.

What to keep in mind:
Look for clients with enough money, so they don't nickel and dime on you. Plastic surgeons should have enough money. Golf clubs came also to my mind for example. What about a video for their website showing the golf course etc. and you could get new connections to rich people over there.
 
I think there is a little misconception in the idea that "equipment pays for it self" within a view gigs.

Does your gear send you a check after a gig or does your HVX print notes out of the P2 slot?

Somehow mine doesn´t - think I have to send it in for service.

"Hey Mr. Panasonic, my buddys over at DVXuser told me that this here camera pays for itself within a view months. I have it now for over a year and never received a dime, I´m damed sure there is something broken in there, you better have a look at it, will you?"

:)

I mean yeah, for a view good paid gigs you can get enough dough to pay for the camera, but meanwhile you work for free. Who is paying you? :huh:

The only thing how that will work is, if you only count the money that you would spend for renting.

HVX200 was new around 5000 Euros. Renting it for a day is between 35 and 120 Euros - let´s say in the neighborhood of 75.
That is, you need 66 gigs (days) to make it "pay by itself" .

So how long does it take till you are even?

Frank
 
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Obviously cameras don't just pay for themselves simply because you own them, but i do have some level of skill and know how to work this thing.

I would like to start taking gigs more seriously and find the best way of either advertising myself, and or, finding work in general. I have done plenty of free stuff, many short films, one feature length, one 40 minute, concerts, documentary, corporate, and through all of them i have probably made a total of 2000. So i would basically like to pick up the pace, find the best way to find work based on your opinions of the best places to look and knock it up a notch.

Thanks for the feedback so far guys. Any other ideas?
 
We've been going for 17 years, but the real breakthrough seemed to happen in synch with P2.

The clients liked the laptop instant playback and mobile editing we could offer using a laptop.

They loved the images; we loved the reliabilty and editing ease of Edius.

We charge rates for productions based on hours, and an average project is about £5000.

It all takes time, but sell yourself on quality not cheapness and you will find your niche.
 
Am I making money? That's funny. Yes but not directly. From book sales and such yes, but not directly from the film. People watch "Wages of Sin" then buy "Action Filmmaking" from Amazon, so that works out. I haven't sold many DVDs in a while, but I've been selling books every month since "Wages" went public on Vimeo.

-Nate
 
I've supported a famly of five with it for many years.
Your love for it, a great reel and a positive tude are what will keep you employed.
Days not booked are not days off. Know that and you'll be fine all the time.
 
I've been shooting as a "hobby" for 30 years, mainly doing commercials for other businesses I owned, plus a few local commercials. Last year was the first year I ever went all out trying to find business and supplement my income. I did some pro bono work for a non profit that resulted in some paid work, shot footage for a behind the scenes DVD for a music project, did about 4 shoots a month for
a company that produces internet yellow page ads, did a political spot and sold probably 20-30 stock footage clips per month on microstock sites. Total income from video - not enough to buy an HPX500 and lens. I'm glad I have other income.
 
grinner said:
I've supported a famly of five with it for many years.
Your love for it, a great reel and a positive tude are what will keep you employed.
Days not booked are not days off. Know that and you'll be fine all the time.
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Thats fantastic man!

I'm glad to hear some of you are able to find some sort of stable income with this, but my main question and what I had wanted to hear from you guys is the process. If you could expand more on how you went about gaining these jobs that would be of great help.

Thanks!

-J
 
jason.adams said:
Barry's Figures are still relevant. I have seen similar pricing structures this past year, but I am in a very small market.

I get 1200.00 for a :30 second local commercial
Corporates range 6-15K for web videos or DVD production. I am doing a lot of straight to web work.
I book primarily through ad agencies.

Corporate gigs traditionally pay a bit better then live shoots or local ad work.

I will say this. No one will value your work for you. I believe you need to set your price based an a very honest assessment of your skill set and the market rate. A very conservative rate for corporate gigs is $1,000 per finished minute. SO if you are producing a company PR DVD with BRoll and Talking heads that is 5 minutes long you should at least be getting 5K for the project. That is as a one mane band shooting/editing/delivering. Multiple shoot days and additional crew/grip package can add to that number quickly.

Evaluate your market rate and then factor in your proficiency. Set your rate and stick to it. DISCOUNTS ARE PERMANANT IN THIS BUSINESS. Anytime someone tells you to just do this first job at a reduced rate and then we will get the next "bigger Project" a full rate. It will never happen.

I have turned jobs where the money was not right. I once told a clinet to save his money and call me when he was serious. As much as clients don't like to here that word got around that if you want my expertise you will pay a very fair rate for it. I have also dropped clients when I did not like the working relationship. I did their first project and when they called again I said I was not interested. Clients hate that, but if you dont value what you do know one else will. Set your terms and respect them and you should have your gear payed for in no time.
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All really good advice. Well it doesn't sound like my asking rate is out of line, then. I have charged, and plan to charge my future clients, in the range of $4,000 to $5,000 per Web video, usually around 3 to 4 minutes long. Depending on number of projects at once (5, 6, 7 videos wanted, I can discount because I can pay a DP less, etc.), and depending on travel expenses to the location.
 
Hi all:

In regards to the paying for itself post Frank, I think a mistake that many make is to charge package deals for them and all of their gear. I don't.

I did a shoot a few weeks ago, five day shoot. I charge my day rate for myself, $250.00 per day for grip and lighting package, $150.00 per day for audio package, appropriate rates for my sound mixer and second camera op and most importantly, I charge $375.00 per day for the HPX package. $375 x 5 days = $1875.00. Three jobs like them and the HPX is basically paid off, although I actually paid it off months ago when I first bought it. I would never buy any professional video gear that you can't pay off in a few projects, it outdates too quickly. For those people who only shoot a few projects a year, they would probably be better served by renting better gear once or twice a year that buying low end gear like the 170.

I do know a few people who only do 1-2 projects a year, but they are usually pretty healthy budgets between $50k and $250k. If I was doing more projects in those ranges, I would rent a RED One and forget owning prosumer cameras ;-)

Dan
 
filthrich said:
Nope. But I'm shooting narrative and have a full time job. I'm not ready yet.
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Same boat here. I have a cousin moving down here that is into advertising and whatnot. I plan on getting a little business going with him and start shooting commercials, weddings, anything really... I live in a small city without any high production videos around here. I could probably get away with being a little bit "green". I've had one client so far that I made two videos for. Now I just have to find more.
 
ROne said:
We charge rates for productions based on hours, and an average project is about £5000.

It all takes time, but sell yourself on quality not cheapness and you will find your niche.
Click to expand...

Wow, your website is very out of date, it's a wonder you get any gigs at all! lol
 
In ROne's defense, my website is extremely out of date. I am in the process of revamping it, but in the professional video realm, if you are counting on your website as a primary source of leads and projects, you are going to starve. The reason my website is so out of date is because I have been too busy over the past four years to update and haven't needed to. I don't think I have ever booked more than one low end shoot directly from my website. It's all reputation, word of mouth and referrals.

I think most of the people who actually land their work from their website tend to be weddings and events but if you do a little higher end work, all the website is is an electronic brochure that they might look at once you have had an initial meeting. So for many people, a website is incidental to their real business. Me included. I am only updating it because it is embarassing that it is so out of date but the website has rarely ever resulted in paying clients.

If I owned a rental company, editing company, etc. I think the website would be much more important but for freelancers, the website is nothing but an incidental for many of us. Kind of like demo reels. I hate watching demo reels and I hate editing my own. I hire them out like any other job now. At the three different production companies I have worked at plus at my own company, unsolicited reels are promptly dumped into the recycling bin, we never look at them. The only time we will even look at a reel is if we need something really specific like a CGI artist, but for editors, DPs, ADs, sound mixers, etc. I have never looked at or hired from a reel. Once again, reputation and word of mouth referrals are IT! Kind of cracks me up that so many in our industry put so much stock into having a "killer reel". Who cares if it's killer if nobody will even look at it?

Dan
 
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puredrifting said:
In ROne's defense, my website is extremely out of date. I am in the process of revamping it, but in the professional video realm, if you are counting on your website as a primary source of leads and projects, you are going to starve. The reason my website is so out of date is because I have been too busy over the past four years to update and haven't needed to. I don't think I have ever booked more than one low end shoot directly from my website. It's all reputation, word of mouth and referrals.

I think most of the people who actually land their work from their website tend to be weddings and events but if you do a little higher end work, all the website is is an electronic brochure that they might look at once you have had an initial meeting. So for many people, a website is incidental to their real business. Me included. I am only updating it because it is embarassing that it is so out of date but the website has rarely ever resulted in paying clients.

If I owned a rental company, editing company, etc. I think the website would be much more important but for freelancers, the website is nothing but an incidental for many of us. Kind of like demo reels. I hate watching demo reels and I hate editing my own. I hire them out like any other job now. At the three different production companies I have worked at plus at my own company, unsolicited reels are promptly dumped into the recycling bin, we never look at them. The only time we will even look at a reel is if we need something really specific like a CGI artist, but for editors, DPs, ADs, sound mixers, etc. I have never looked at or hired from a reel. Once again, reputation and word of mouth referrals are IT! Kind of cracks me up that so many in our industry put so much stock into having a "killer reel". Who cares if it's killer if nobody will even look at it?

Dan
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I think some of what you're saying just doesn't strike true to me, I'm not saying the basics of what you are arguing isn't accurate just that you're acting as though a Website and a great reel make no difference. This is patently untrue. What is true is that if you don't have anyone to see them, they are useless. But the first step to success IS having a great reel and a good Website, then the second and I'd argue much harder step is actually getting people to look at either. It has taken me some time to build up at least a solid reel, and my Website is nearly up, but I have the potential client contacts waiting from referrals. They are mostly people who know what I've done for other companies / people, and are interested based on that, but I want to be able to put my best foot forward so I want to have a great Website before I approach them. I also am a new media company in general, selling Web-related services like complete site redesigns (I don't do any of that), hosting for media, and virtual tours or corporate work for their sites, primarily. So if a client wants a virtual tour for their site, I don't hand them a DVD and say "here you go." My company completely finishes the project from concept to Website redesign so that the client doesn't have to hire a series of contractors to do it all. And I also aim to take over maintenance for any company that I work with, as far as Websites go, because a lot of them are vastly overpaying for that and any changes they want to make. So for me, having a great Website is really important, because it's part of what I'm selling too.

If I don't have a good reel, showing what I've done in the past and that I have the experience to do it well, then I can't get those types of clients when I do have them on the line. Sure, if I can't find them at all, the reel is totally 100% worthless, so if that's what you're saying that's right, but if you have the people to look at your reel and who are "potentially interested" in your services, you badly need to be able to show them something. I had situations like this earlier where I met someone pretty big in music video production previously, she's out of the business but has great contacts, and she asked about a reel. I had just one video, and didn't want to show her that or tell her that, so I told her I was working on my reel. But the point is now I would be able to give her a great reel and credentials, and who knows, that may have led somewhere.
 
Hi Jonathan:

I am not sure what city you live in or at what level you are in the business. Most of the people that I work with could care less about reels. A good friend of mine was the editor who started The Girls Next Door with a producer, it went on to success on E. He then moved through the ranks of editing more cable shows, then made the jump to network on The Great Race. He is now editing two new series on ABC as senior editor. Has never had a website, has never had a reel. Has never needed one.

Another friend who is a preditor. He actually got me my first entertainment job, I used to hire him to cut all of my corporate stuff when I was pretty deep in corporate. He is now editing a series for TCM and is booked solid through 2009 and well into 2010. His last reel was 1998, it had a lot of my work on it that he had cut. Since then, he has been booked solid and worked steadily with no reel and no website.

Two DP friends, I did a shoot with one of them yesterday. Both work on lots of telelvision shows, one has been regularly shooting Bizarre Foods for Travel Channel, the other has been shooting a ton of HGTV shows, I think he said he is on six different shows on HGTV. Neither has a website or reel, neither needs it.

I could go on, but I think you get the point. Not saying that nobody should have a reel or website, just saying in my little world, in LA, with my time split this year between entertainment and the corporate world, my website is so old (I have not touched it since 2004) that it has cobwebs and the last reel that I did for myself was about 2002. I have worked steadily since then, nobody who hires me cares about either. And I work for production companies as a producer and DP, a writer for some other producers, and I produce a lot of my own projects as well and hire other producers and DPs.

I think a lot of people don't want to hear that most people in entertainment in hiring positions or positions of authority often don't look at reels. I know, blasphemy, but if you have worked at large production companies, most people there are either too busy or just don't care to look at reels. They will hire someone who is recommended by someone that they trust. I should know, that was how I was hired for my last three long term jobs in entertainment. Boss did not care to see a reel, boss did not ask if I had a website. Bosses have had a face to face interview with me, given me a chance to sell myself and then hired me. The biggest concern was always, "how much are you going to cost me?" not I want to see your reel.

It works the same way in the corporate world. I have six different corporate clients right now (companies). None of them have ever seen a reel and I don't think too many of them have visited my website. If they did, they would have ribbed me about how out of date it is. I am hired because I have either worked for them for many years and we have a relationship, or one of my other clients told the newer client to try me. Not to say I have never shown them other work I have done, I have. But it wasn't a reel, I just played them a clip from another show that I had produced that was a similar style. Or I can tell them to look through their DVD collection, chances are they already have a lot of my work at their home since I have produced about 500 DVD docs, bonus features and other types of titles. Once in a while, when the timing is right, I can just tell them to tune in to TCM or A&E on Saturday night at 9:00 and they can see a show that I produced.

I hired a new sound guy for a shoot this week. Have never met him, have never seen or heard his work. A camera operator I hire had worked with one sound guy, who I called and sound guy number one was already booked. He was nice though and recommended sound guy number two. I called him, hired him sight unseen after our phone conversation and the guy turned out to be one of the best sound mixers I have ever worked with. Reel? No. Website? I could have cared less.

So I will further qualify my statement. This is how it works for me, in the corporate and entertainment world, in LA, as a freelancer and production company owner. YMMV. Websites are fluff and reels are rarely needed. Sorry. It's more about who you know and building trust and having people trust you than reels and websites.

Dan
 
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