Are we getting 24p on the 5DII ?

But having said that Chip, Canon DID in the past spend R&D money on adding manual controls to the 5D. Why did they do that? Because they assumed that the money spent on R&D would enable them to increase sales and make a profit from the relativly small R&D outlay.

They were also competing with Panasonic and their crafty little GH1.

Now the issue is more complicated, because the 5D has been out nearly a year and the new Canon models are here or close, so they don't want to hurt the sales of the new models whilst they are spending a fortune marketing and launching them.

But when the dust settles once more, after Christmas, do you think it matters to Canon if you buy a 5D, 7D or 1D? They're all Canons, and it's all money in the pocket of Canon. It's in Canon's interest therefore to make each product as good as it possibly can be.

So I think if what ChipG says is right, then the reason we're not getting 24p is because it sucks, not because Canon want us to buy the 7D instead.

Regarding the Panasonic GH1's bitrate. They couldn't update this in firmware because it was a CPU power limited thing. Sometimes I buy the 'evil capitalist Canon' line, sometimes I don't. But in this case I honestly think that they specced out the first generation VDSLRs the best they could, delivered them on time and then moved on. Nothing wrong with that I suppose.
 
I'm sure it's a little of both, it sucks and they want you to buy the new model. The next 5diii will have 24p.
 
commanderspike said:
But having said that Chip, Canon DID in the past spend R&D money on adding manual controls to the 5D. Why did they do that? Because they assumed that the money spent on R&D would enable them to increase sales and make a profit from the relativly small R&D outlay.

They were also competing with Panasonic and their crafty little GH1.
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No, you can actually find out exactly why they did it -- because they were responding to a crushing demand from filmmakers, and even acknowledging that the 5D isn't the camera a filmmaker would want, they still went ahead and added manual controls to tide people over until a properly-designed appropriate-for-video cam could come out.

And the product manager for Canon flat-out said that he was shocked and stunned that Canon did that (adding new features in a firmware update). He said he'd been with the company for 20 years and had never ever seen them do something like that. And he pretty much told people that no, 24p will not be coming to the 5D Mark II.

He said "new features are reserved for new products, not for firmware updates."

So -- if it happens, thank your lucky stars and count your blessings. But the odds are probably a thousand to one against them adding any new features to the 5D.

It's in Canon's interest therefore to make each product as good as it possibly can be.
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THANK YOU. Can you please repeat that to everyone who ever, ever, ever says "they won't do <this> or <that> because they're protecting their higher models"? They make each as good as it can be, given the price point they have to work with.

Regarding the Panasonic GH1's bitrate. They couldn't update this in firmware because it was a CPU power limited thing.
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We don't know that. We know they won't update it unless they think it's a bug. If someone could convince them it's a bug, then maybe they'd update it (if it were possible). But they won't update it just to be nice.

There's starting to be more reasons why the theory of the kit lens contributing to the mud issue, might actually have some weight to it. My cam's probably a week away from getting back here, but I'm def. interested in trying it out with a manual lens to see if it helps.

But in this case I honestly think that they specced out the first generation VDSLRs the best they could, delivered them on time and then moved on.
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EXACTLY. That's what these manufacturers do. THey are not going to spend their time and money improving the product you already bought -- they've moved on. They're done with that. You already bought it, they already got your money, so why go back in and improve it? Instead they pour their energy and resources into the next model, making it that much better so that you'll upgrade.

And that is why you will rarely ever, if not actually never, see a firmware update that adds new features.
 
Barry_Green said:
We don't know that. We know they won't update it unless they think it's a bug. If someone could convince them it's a bug, then maybe they'd update it (if it were possible). But they won't update it just to be nice.
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The only bug I think we really could convince them on is the color shifting thing...which from the footy I've seen kinda of looks like an aperture adjustment but I haven't seen much...maybe they'd fix that...
 
Barry_Green said:
There's starting to be more reasons why the theory of the kit lens contributing to the mud issue, might actually have some weight to it. My cam's probably a week away from getting back here, but I'm def. interested in trying it out with a manual lens to see if it helps.
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It does indeed help removing the kit lens. It doesn't solve the issue, far from it. But it does help the issue. I presume that's because the CPU is freed from doing the lens distortion correction and chromatic aberration removal routines.

Convincing Panasonic that mud is a 'bug' rather than an area of IQ that needs improving is actually a very good idea.

The problem is, Panasonic never give any signs that they're listening to us, even if they are. We simply don't know what they think. If Panasonic were a poker player, they'd be truly be Lady Gaga.
 
The 30p looks terrible when burned to Blu-ray...thats why I was wondering if we would ever get 24p on the 5D2.

I dont care either way really - these camera bodies are practically disposable. 1 or 2 shoots and it's covered. I've been with canon for 6 years now, so I have a good amount of glass, all L series.. I was shocked when they upgraded the 5D2 with manual controls - so as filmmakers why not ask for 24p. I'd even pay for it.

The bottom line, the 30p is not satisfactory for films going to Blu-ray. But this camera is alot of fun anyway.
 
24p is available. All you have to do is a two-stage process:
1) sell 5D on ebay
2) buy 7D.

Seriously, now with the 7D out, and with the new 1D supposed to be coming next week on the 20th, the 5D is old news, as far as them adding features to it. I can't imagine a world in which they'll expend any engineering resources on adding a firmware update to the 5D to make it do 24p. Canon already said it wasn't gonna happen.
 
On Reduser, Jim has some interesting views on sensor design.

jannard.jpg


http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=36337&page=3

They say that the way the Canon sensors work is to skip lines on the sensor in order to achieve 24p from what is actually a 6fps sensor.

That is, you can read every line from top to bottom 6 times a second, but in order to achieve this 24 times a second you have to miss out lines.

On the 5D, if you reach the speed of 30 times a second this has a two-fold advantage. You read out the sensor faster thus reducing jello, and you skip out more lines - so there is less work for the image processor to do.

Without a redesign, my guess is that to achieve 24p they'd simply read more lines from the 6fps sensor, slowing the output to 24fps. But this would make jello an issue. However moire would be less of an issue. Just my theory.
 
Well, Jim (as a sensor designer) is probably well aware that the 7D sensor is probably not able to read 30 full frames per second.

Canon has denied skipping lines. They say they bin the pixels in groups of six instead. Whichever way they're doing it, it's leading to nasty artifacts and low resolution.

But the sensor itself, when used in still camera mode, is capable of much much more than the video-hardware they're using, which has to overcome the notion that the sensor is very likely nowhere near fast enough to be read out at 60fps.
 
There is another guy at RED, Graeme, who suggests that the best way to skip lines is not to do it on the scaling hardware but on the sensor itself.

The advantages of a faster sensor read out are well documented, but in order to achieve this they must have a few tricks - either skipping lines, or as you say - binning pixels in groups of six.

To bin those pixels only AFTER the full sensor has been scanned is a waste of energy and time, points out Graeme. Which is pretty logical.

The sensor itself uses a mechanical shutter in stills mode, so it doesn't need to help the electronic shutter (scan) along by binning pixels or skipping lines. Hense the 1:1 quality of photos is a lot greater than the 1:1 quality of video. Add to video more compression, and you have the results you do.

So it could be a long time before the sensor is fast enough or clever enough to do what we're asking of it, even if the image processing hardware is improved dramatically and has a lot more horse power.

There is a reason I guess why RED brains have such major cooling systems, to do a full sensor read out as quickly as they do. This is not something Canon want to put in a consumer stills camera!
 
Barry_Green said:
24p is available. All you have to do is a two-stage process:
1) sell 5D on ebay
2) buy 7D.

Seriously, now with the 7D out, and with the new 1D supposed to be coming next week on the 20th, the 5D is old news, as far as them adding features to it. I can't imagine a world in which they'll expend any engineering resources on adding a firmware update to the 5D to make it do 24p. Canon already said it wasn't gonna happen.
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I heard we are getting a 5D update. But besides that, the sensor on the 7D @ 1.6x...not interested in that. I will get a 1D MKIV, but may like 5D better because of full frame, if we get 24p.
 
Aren't their two versions of the 1D mk4? I think one has a 1.3 crop and the other one is full frame? One is called the 's' version?
 
Not to start this again. But the 5d was absolutely used on Iron Man 2.

Whether they had 24p or not has not been confirmed to me, however, I have been told by multiple sources on the set that they used it for Iron Man's POV and as a crash cam. Literally running the cameras into walls, etc - since they were so cheap in terms of Iron Man's budget.

Those who don't believe will just have to wait until next summer, I guess. Nothing has been released by the production because using the 5d was not acceptable underneath the studios insurance. AKA - they had to use it without telling the people fronting the money. And for anyone that doesn't believe that fact - it's a very common practice, that most recently was used on Public Enemies when they didn't want the studio to know they shot most of the action with an EX-1.
 
Well that makes pretty good sense, using it as a crash cam. There are lot of creative uses for DSLRs in even the biggest budget movies. I believe the Iron Man 2 story, but it also could have been a prototype 7D badged as a 5D.
 
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