Are we close? - S-LOG3 to S-Cinetone LUT

cyvideo

cyvideo

Veteran
Had two jobs recently where I had to try to match non S-Cinetone cameras shooting S-LOG3 to cameras shooting S-Cinetone. Had a hunt around for a decent LUT for S-LOG3 Cine to S-Cinetone and found very little. So had a quick go at knocking one out. Have used it on FS7 and FS5 shots and with a bit of node tweaking prior to the LUT node have got close enough to keep the client happy. Thoughts?

Chris Young

Click image for larger version Name: SLOG3 - S-Cinetone LUT comp [small].jpg Views: 0 Size: 63.5 KB ID: 5704324

FS7 S-LOG3 with S-Cinetone LUT

FS7 SLOG3 + S-Cinetone LUT txt [small].jpg
 
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I prefer making judgements based on actual split-screen video (rather than freeze frames) but it looks like a pretty close match to my eyes. Certainly good enough for mixing two cameras that are not on the exact same framing. How does it hold up when you mix two different models of camera, such as an FS7 and an A7?
 
How does it hold up under different exposure scenarios? I find that S-Cinetone can look quite different depending on how it's exposed.

From the screen grabs I'd say this looks pretty close. Although a video with side-by-side would be great.
 
Doug Jensen said:
I prefer making judgements based on actual split-screen video (rather than freeze frames) but it looks like a pretty close match to my eyes. Certainly good enough for mixing two cameras that are not on the exact same framing. How does it hold up when you mix two different models of camera, such as an FS7 and an A7?
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This LUT was created for post jobs, Doug. Though, you are right. I guess the acid test would be to check this out by shooting an FS7 while burning the LUT in at the same time as shooting the same thing on an A7 running S-Cinetone. I'll see if I can find the time to do that in the near future. While I'm at it, I might also have a go at dialing in an FS7 Custom file to match S-Cinetone. For a lot of basic production jobs, that would make life easier for me in post if the cammos could use that.

Chris Young
 
drboffa said:
How does it hold up under different exposure scenarios? I find that S-Cinetone can look quite different depending on how it's exposed.

From the screen grabs I'd say this looks pretty close. Although a video with side-by-side would be great.
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As I mentioned in my response to Doug, I'll try to get around to doing a comparison video. I take on board what you say about exposure with S-Cinetone as I feel the same. For starters, I tend to overexpose on S-Cinetone by anywhere from 1/2 to a stop over depending on scene and subject.

Chris Young
 
cyvideo said:
This LUT was created for post jobs, Doug. Though, you are right. I guess the acid test would be to check this out by shooting an FS7 while burning the LUT in at the same time as shooting the same thing on an A7 running S-Cinetone. I'll see if I can find the time to do that in the near future. While I'm at it, I might also have a go at dialing in an FS7 Custom file to match S-Cinetone. For a lot of basic production jobs, that would make life easier for me in post if the cammos could use that.

Chris Young
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Sorry Chris, I think you misunderstood. I wasn't suggesting to bake-in the LUT onboard the camera. I am alway against that. I was talking about applying the LUT in post to the FS7 footage that was shot with S-LOG3 to see how well it matches up to the A7 footage that was shot with S-Cinetone. In your frames above it appears everything was shot with the the A7, right?

But what really what matters is how you can get the two different cameras to match in post, right? You're goal, if I undersandd correctly, is to mix A7+S-Cinetone with a FS7+S-LOG3+S-Cinetone style LUT. If that is the case, a better test would be to see how your cinetone LUT works on the FS7 footage, not the A7. How does it match then? I hope that makes sense.
 
Doug Jensen said:
But what really what matters is how you can get the two different cameras to match in post, right? You're goal, if I undersandd correctly, is to mix A7+S-Cinetone with a FS7+S-LOG3+S-Cinetone style LUT. If that is the case, a better test would be to see how your cinetone LUT works on the FS7 footage, not the A7. How does it match then? I hope that makes sense.
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Yes, same subject matter with two cameras. A7 in S-Cinetone and FS7 in SLOG3 and see how they match in post. That's what I need to do. The last still frame I added of the tradesman with a van is from FS7 SLOG3 footage. I think it looks okay with the S-Cinetone LUT, but I don't have that shot on an A7, so will have to set up a scenario where I can use those two cameras in S-Cine and SLOG to do a true comparison. Not that I'm a big lover of S-Cintone at the best of times.

Chris Young
 
cyvideo said:
Not that I'm a big lover of S-Cintone at the best of times.
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It's interesting you'd say that right now because I just finished creating two LUTs that I call S-CINETONE BOOSTERS. They take the ugly, dull, S-CINETONE I get straight out the camera and spruce it up for prime time. Just drop it on the clip and walk away (almost).
 
FS7 and FX9 don't use Cinegammas but rather similar Hypergammas. Hypergamma 7 is the closest to Cinegamma 4. For what its worth, as I recall the FS7 's colorimetry tends to slant a little more magenta at least than the FX9.
 
Imamacuser said:
People have built in-camera S-Cinetone-like profiles around Cine 4, can't remember if the FS7 has Cine 4 or not.
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No. FS7s run a full SMPTE Matrix which is totally "UNRELATED" to the much simpler and far less versatile for fine-tuning color management PPs that the A7 series run. No relationship whatsoever. No individual color phase, luminance and saturation adjustments. The A7's Cine 4 can be dialed in very accurately to match S-Cinetone in the A7 series. I did that for A7s before they introduced S-Cinetone in one of the updates. Paul from Extra Shot in the UK did a lot of work on that originally to match the A7Siii to an FX9 before the A7Siii got its S-Cinetone upgrade. Cine 4 is purely an A7 feature. Not to be confused with Hypergamma 4 or Cinegamma 4 found in Sony's video cameras.

Chris Young
 
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cyvideo said:
No. FS7s run a full SMPTE Matrix which is totally untreated to the much simpler and far less versatile for fine-tuning color management PPs that the A7 series run. No relationship whatsoever. No individual color phase, luminance and saturation adjustments. The A7's Cine 4 can be dialed in very accurately to match S-Cinetone in the A7 series.. Cine 4 is purely an A7 feature. Not to be confused with Hypergamma 4 or Cinegamma 4 found in Sony's video cameras.

Chris Young
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Are you sure about all that? My recollection of the FS7 and in fact all the cameras that had Hypergammas and cinegammas is that you have some control in matrix settings. As I recall phase, saturation and black level are all adjustable as is color if you can master the incredibly complicated matrix #s. It also has a multimatrix which can affect individual colors though I've only barely experimented with it . But the individual color settings on the A7 are far from being especially useful in my experience. Also where did you read that Cine 4 is unrelated to Cinegamma 4? I'm not saying you're wrong , just would like to know myself. I assumed ( perhaps incorrecty) that since the A7's only allow Cine 1-4 that they must be similar at least to Cinegammas 1-4.

The most distinctive thing about s-Cinetone is said to be the nice flesh tones and to some extent that can be accomplished with a good matrix setting . I created one myself that pretty much always looked flattering though I've never checked to see if it matched s-Cinetone.
 
LennyLevy said:
Are you sure about all that? My recollection of the FS7 and in fact all the cameras that had Hypergammas and cinegammas is that you have some control in matrix settings.
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Chris can correct me if I am wrong, but I think he just wrote his reply in a confusing way. He's saying the FS7 has superior matrix controls (which it does) and lots of paint options compared to the A7. I read it wrong the first time too because it is hard to know which camera he's talking about.
 
LennyLevy said:
Are you sure about all that? My recollection of the FS7 and in fact all the cameras that had Hypergammas and cinegammas is that you have some control in matrix settings. As I recall phase, saturation and black level are all adjustable as is color if you can master the incredibly complicated matrix #s. It also has a multimatrix which can affect individual colors though I've only barely experimented with it
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Sorry about this LL. I made a major spelling error where I said UNTREATED rather than UNRELATED. What I am saying is that cameras in the Sony cine/broadcast line do run a full SMPTE matrix along with a full Multi-matrix. Which gives you an almost unlimited range of adjustments. The A7 series don't have anywhere near that degree of adjustment. There again, the A7 series were never designed to be mixed in a multi-cam switch. Whereas in a broadcast situation you may have to mix Panasonic, Ikegami, Grass Valley and or Sony or other brand cameras together. Without those cameras having full paint matrixes and CCU/RCU access to those paint matrixes, you would never be able to match cameras in a meaningful time. That's the job of the TD. That's why the SMPTE matrix system was developed. For painting and matching cameras. Doug is right when I say that the FS7 has a far more capable for paint matching in a multicam setup with other SMPTE based cameras than any A7. The FX6 whilst being technically internally very closely related to an A7Siii is totally different in color management as it does run a standard SMPTE Paint/Look >Matrix and a Paint/Look >Multi Matrix along with a user Matrix.

Again, sorry when I say there is no relationship between Cine4 and Cinegamma 4. I should clarify some of my statements a bit better. Sony Cinegammas 1 - 4 have no knee or slope adjustment capability in the Sony cameras that have Cinegamma selections. At least, in any of the ones I have set up for multicam work, which have been many over the years. Knee and slope are totally locked out. But they do have Cinegamma level adjustments. Normally in the order of -99 to + 99. Whereas Cine4, an A7 menu item, has total knee control, auto or manual and adjustments for both for knee point and slope. The Cinegamma level adjustments are a sub menu item of the Cinegamma selection menus. On Cinegamma cameras, this adjustment is global in as much as the gamma curve does not alter its shape, but the curve can be lifted or lowered.

On Sony Hypergamma cameras, such as the F5/55 and FS7, which have both 100% and 109% gammas choices once you select a Hypergamma you are totally locked out of Black Gamma, Step Gamma, Master Gamma and the RGB Gammas. So again quite different to the Cinegamma and Cine1, 2, 3, 4 type A7 gamma setups.

On the A7 series with any of the Cine1, 2, 3, 4 settings you have access to Color Mode and Color Depth plus you have a separate menu that is called Black Gamma with sub menu settings of Wide>Middle>Narrow with another sub menu called Level that has a +/- range of 7. The adjustments under the A7 Black Gamma menu are totally different to Cinegamma Level adjustments. By adjusting any of the Wide>Middle>Narrow settings of an A7, you are in fact altering the shape of the gamma curve. The fact that you can do that on an A7 means the Cinegammas are quite different to the Cine1, 2, 3, 4 settings in an A7. You only have to put an A7 and a PMW or PXW camera on a Tektronics or Leader scope and superimpose their waveforms over one another while shooting a chip chart, and you can see the Cinegamma 4 and Cine4 curves are sufficiently different to say they are not the same. Both can go to 109%. If you wanted to go to air with them, you would have to dial them in to match. In the case of an A7 usually via a Proc Amp.

The tricky thing with the S-Cinegamma curve is that whist its basic shape is a 709 curve, its curves are different in different parts across the range. Trying to manipulate that in Resolve is a good exercise in "Why am I doing this".

Chris Young
 
Very close! Nice match.

I totally understand why it would be desirable to have a LUT or scene file that could be used to create a S-CINETONE look for cameras that don't actually have an S-CINETONE option, but that's a little like taking a steak and trying to turn it into a hot dog.
 
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LOL, hot dog. Yes, that about sums it up. The only reason I have bothered to make a hot dog as you put it, Doug is that I have been asked to match steak footage to cameras that have been on the same job but are shooting hot dog. It's just that I now have an S-Cinetone LUT for S-LOG3 in the toolkit, which is pretty quick to massage to match most camera's S-Cinetone footage. Though they are all a bit different, I find. Plus, everyone seems to have their "own way" of exposing SLOG.

Chris Young
 
Got it Chris. Thanks for that explanation and that all makes sense. . I am aware of all the additional gamma and knee curves in the A7 series that could be applied to any of the gammas though I have never checked to see if they were available for Slog as well (not that you would want them.) I actually have always wondered whether it was advisable to mess with those settings in Cine 1-4 or if they were actually designed for the 709 gammas and just left in because it would have been too expensive for Sony to lock them out of the other gammas settings.

But still wondering if I understand you to say that the basic Cine -4 curve is still different from Cinegamma-4.? The Sony manual says that Cine 1 & 2 are equivilant to Hypergammas but for Cine 3 & 4 its just got that totally confusing gobblygook about contrast in the shadows and highlights that I've never been able to make any sense of. Maybe it made better sense in the original Japanese?

​​​​​​​BTW is there a good LUT for Slog3 to from the FX9 to match s-cinetone?
 
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