Are laptops already P2 ready?

[Barry_Green]

Yes you can plug a drive right into the camera. Not for direct recording, but for copying the contents of a P2 card onto. So whatever the camera names a clip on the card, that's what it gets named when you copy it over to the hard disk.

And yes, each take is a different file.

Keep in mind, a P2 card basically functions the same as a solid-state hard disk. So the camera is just copying contents from one "hard disk" (the P2 card) to another (a hard disk attached through the USB2 port and using SBP2 protocol).

 

[xray]

Xray, I use a laptop in the field on every shoot I do. I always have a laptop there running DV Rack (now with HDV Rack for when I get the JVC). They have this really cool invention called an "AC Power Supply" which lets you power it for hours and hours and hours and hours. And you don't even need AC, you can plug it into an inverter and power it out of the van or car. Or totally unplug and run for a couple of hours on its internal battery. What, exactly, is the problem?


I mean, seriously -- if we were to take your comment seriously, we could also say "oh, look at your roll of film, you can't do any work with that because the capacity is so low, you only get 11 minutes per roll!" Yet people manage to shoot $200 million movies on those 11-minute rolls of film. A single P2 card gives you more capacity, and it's reusable, whereas those rolls of film cost $500 to buy, and $200 to process, and $200 to transfer to video, and they're not reusable.

The system works as-is, and it's only going to get better and better. Capacities will increase, prices will come down, computers will get faster, batteries will last longer.

Barry, I'm sorry to inform you that for me, I don´t feel a DVX or HVX = film.
So P2 is not film. So your idea to match P2 with film is not right.

If we shoot film (S16) we do that for the quality of image, the workflow, and the expectation of film distribution. Working with film gives us the opportunity to get lost of all the videoattachments like monitors and portable computers. Working potable we try not to connect the video assist.

If we shoot video we do that for the cheap, real long recording times, the direct control, the budget, and sometimes the postediting. P2 and fixed lenses can´t deliver the film statement and can't deliver the video ( long rec) statement.

For me, shooting always with a portable computer attached seems like a crime.
I asked around and I'm not alone. We have the Nagra connected and that is enough. If it is studio, or a steady set I don't mind, but all the work exterior, we want the quality of film OR video with freedom to shoot without the time limit or batterie change. If you do video you want the benefits of video.

For -need of- time shoots, journalists, news; P2 and portable editing seems fine. For a documentary in Patagonia with no ac-outlet and all batteries charged with sunenergie it is no option. We shoot on video, we shoot on tape. I like the idea of having a cheap archive too. If we can buy a hard drive or memory card like P2 (or another not proprietor ownership card) with the same capacity, price and archive possibilities, we buy that.

'Computers, batteries etc. will be faster in the future'. :huh:
I know. It always is like that. If it is faster you can do new things, for now P2 is to small and too expensive.

 

[ddh]

Somebody turn off the stove! It does no good to argue about whether the HVX, DVX or any other video is film, it is not and most here know that! But video capabilities are getting there! Using a computer on your video shoot with something like DV Rack and a high resolution 1900 X 1200 17" LCD on a laptop is an advantage anytime, anyway and anywhere you can do it. I might, like anyone else, have to think hard about equipment on a shoot in Patagonia or anywhere in the great wide beyond. Such extreme shoots are not a real senerio 99% of the time.
Just for reference, Every 35 mil. film I've worked on for at least the last 7 to 8 years has used a video assist via the 35 mil. cam. Seems like video has it's uses even on a film set.

 

[kprince]

Barry, I'm sorry to inform you that for me, I don´t feel a DVX or HVX = film.

He didn't say the DVX/HVX was film goonsbury. Read his post again, SLOWLY.
I feel I just wasted 30 seconds of my life with this post. Love always.

 

[xray]

He is comparing the ± 11 minutes from a reel film with P2. Both deliver short recording times compared with tape video. Slow.
Peace tyall.

 

[Edalgo_Alvarez]

Film is film, P2 will increase in capacity whereas film will not. Pay for film if you want film, but if you're low on a budget, then going with P2 is your best bet. Sure, its not film, but hey, its definitley not cheap video .

-Edalgo

 

[xray]

Film is film, P2 will increase in capacity whereas film will not. Pay for film if you want film, but if you're low on a budget, then going with P2 is your best bet. Sure, its not film, but hey, its definitley not cheap video .

-Edalgo

You are right, it is just an expensive memorycard that holds video. That is what it is, nothing more or it is hype. It will have some ground, if other ventors are building systems with it (the same raid-cards), if it gets cheaper, and if it will hold more data. My 30 seconds for free (no charge). If you only want oooh and aaaaah please rename the site to www.panagroupies.com

 

[Jarred Land]

You are right, it is just an expensive memorycard that holds video. That is what it is, nothing more or it is hype.aaaaah please rename the site to

listen dickhead... no reason to start calling names.


The P2 isn't just an expensive memorycard.. The P2 system contains more metadata than you would ever get on and film, and stores information unlike any other method to date. You can loop record and push back so you never miss a moment. There are tons of advantages to the P2 System, and yes a few disadvantages.

If you don't like the P2 then fine.. but as soon as you start calling my guys names I'm gonna kick you to the curb.

 

[mmm]

I'll be happier when I can by a 128GB P2 for a few hundred £s...

...about 2008/9 maybe...?

At the end of the day P2 is a new option that will only get better and cheaper! That has to be a good thing in the long run.

 

[PanasonicNZ]

Xray, how much money do you spend over one year on 16mm and/or tape stock? How much money do you have locked in your archive sitting on the shelf doing nothing but keeping your footage safe? P2 is expensive, it requires a different workflow, but it saves lots of money over a reasonable period of time. If you don't understand or will not accept a new workflow, that's fine, you don't need to buy into P2, no one will put a gun at your head to force you to get one. On the same line, there's no need to express your disapproval with such ardour, we understand, you don't understand. I'm looking after a very small market, but I think HVX200 will be a major hit here, as well as everywhere else. Not everybody likes it, but you know, some of us are vegetarians,other are catholics and some other are gay. You don't need to agree with everyone's views or opinions, but at the same time is blatantly rude to scream your disapproval at the top of your lungs. All the best...

 

[xray]

Hi,
Film is expensive. I keep my negative material in a climate room in Amsterdam, I pay for it. I have Digibeta copys here, made while scanning the negative. I do shoot video, most of it Betacam, SP before now Digi. I know that I have beautiful images, and perhaps I can sell them again, I own the rights, and the original S16mm will be good for 80 years or so.

My tapes are degrading fast, but I also can't read my original 5 1/4 " floppys in the computer anymore. There are some images and text on them. If you go the digital way you know it is a way of change very fast, and the live span of the investment is short, say 3 years. Buying CD to remove the LP than buying the Ipod to receive the mp3.

So attrandom digital shoots -be it on harddisk or memorycard (P2)- give some
advantages, like clearing the wrong take. But for me, video itself gives that kind of advantage too, you clear it in the editroom and write the wrong take down...Video costs nothing to shoot. I gues that if the memorycards (P2) share the same price/Gb as harddisks it is an alternative, it is small that is nice. For archive or editing you need /have to copy the data to another hard disk or cheap disk. You do not leave the expensive cards... You do so with tape. That gives freedom!

I do not talk about P2 or HVX versus film. It is not in the same class. You shoot concentrated your roll with a 1:4 ratio. The images are breathtaking. You can not compare that until the quality is the same, and you at least can change the lenses with the camera. You are waiting for the PAL version? There is a market, even so I think for the JVCHD100. The only thing I really like about the new DVX is DVCPRO 50.

I will express my opinion even if some people think that you only may pray hallelujah Panasonic P2. It is far from perfect, it is small and expensive, you can't send it by mail, just like you can't with film, but film it isn't.
Not the advantages from film and not the advantages from video.

Well, I keep it cool anyway, going to the Alps for two months.
Cheers.

 

[KnockOutFilms]

I love the idea of P2 and the HVX. I plan to use it on feature projects, so even the idea of having a laptop on set for off-loading is fine by me. The currently short storage capacity of the cards is not such a big deal. There is always time between shots and set-ups to off-load the P2 card.

However, I am very concerned about archiving footage. On a feature film I will require many drives to store the footage, plus a complete set of redundant drives. You may think this is over kill but I have had lots of drive failure. There is no feeling in the word like the "click / clunk of drive death". Even with the ability to go back to the source tapes, you have invaribly done some self-contained FX output stuff that was created and not sitting on a tape. Having double back-up is the minimum.

I will not spend thousands of dollars and expended great effort to get great shots only to loose them to the vapour. Imagine a great shot from your feature sitting on a drive that won't mount.

This is the only thing nawing at the back of my mind. I could output to DLT, but that gear ramp up is several thousand dollars. I could lay out to another tape, what?, maybe the DVCProHD. Will require rental, etc. I know drives are getting cheaper everyday, but this will still require some real money for a feature. I know there is always risk, even with tape or negative, and in the end maybe I will be content with Hard Drive archival.

This is less a coment on the HVX and more on just the idea of the tapeless future, which I am excited about.

How are others rationalizing this in their minds and workflow plans?

Cheers,
Chris

 

[mmm]

Sorry for another future forecast, but I also can't wait for the time when all storage is solid state. Goodbye RAID arrays and redundancy!! Yippee! Super fast, super reliable.

How long do you guys reckon, 10 years or so?

..ummmm...100TB solid state drives...

 

[xray]

The P2 isn't just an expensive memorycard.. The P2 system contains more metadata than you would ever get on and film, and stores information unlike any other method to date. You can loop record and push back so you never miss a moment. There are tons of advantages to the P2 System, and yes a few disadvantages.

Well, here here...
Metadata can be registred inside the image (JPG)... and very good with the MPEG 7 structure in combination with the imageprocessing. You can store metadata on hard disk and on any memorycard. If you raid up memorycards you have P2. It is an expensive memorycard, with limited storage capacity for video use.

The biggest disadvantage is that you have to unload the camera very soon, and have to spend a lot of money to archive and edit the raw material specialy if working on long format documentary(film).

 

[mmm]

I agree with xray, in that, at the moment, P2 is expensive and carries many disadvantages. It isn't just a memory card, it is four memory cards.

However, it does have a lot of advantages too and in the future these will prevail as the capacity goes up and price comes down.

I think a lot of people are thinking the same way, and think that ProHD/HDV may be a good solution until P2 is more affordable. Hard drives and laptops are fine, but don't suit my shooting style; I would rather compromise my compression than my style...haha that sounds soooo gay.

 

[PanasonicNZ]

and have to spend a lot of money to archive and edit the raw material specialy if working on long format documentary(film).

Archiving P2 is the cheapest from all formats. One hour of 1080 on shelf costs about $6. And that is for full 422 DVCPROHD, audio and metadata. This is your only expense when it comes to media, othed than the delivery of the final product. As I said, you HAVE to change your workflow in order to get the full advantage of the format. Stop thinking about P2 cards as media. It's like saying you need more RAM in your PC because you have installed more applications. With 3 cards you can shoot continuously. You need some other hardware alongside to acheive that, but in one year time you will save heaps by not buying tapes or whatever media that you use only once and than you shelf. That's of course, IF you use that camera and it's not just an expensive hobby.

 

[KnockOutFilms]

Archiving P2 is the cheapest from all formats. One hour of 1080 on shelf costs about $6.

Could you expand this? Do you mean when you buy a Hard Drive for archiving divided by the price per hour of footage?

I know it's been listed before but how much space is required for 1 hour of 1080 or 1 hour of 720? (p vs i)?

Cheers,
Chris

 

[Ernest_Acosta]

I read this entire thread and both sides have points. I recently went to a Kodak Make Work Flow workshop and they (of course) are pushing the point of films' ability to store for many years as opposed to the electronic storage industry which changes every 3 to 5 years. So Xray does have a point when it comes to storage. I think his refusal to understand the P2 workflow comes from not wanting to change work habits. Film is high def but very costly. P2 work flow is an adjustment to the usual way we work. It definitely has its advantages. Having your hard drive crash with all your beautiful images does keep me thinking about how many drive/backups I will need. If you like film and its workflow, stay with film. If you like HD and its workflow, stay with HD. I myself think P2 is expensive but at least the camera give you options. So whether its mini-dv tape, P2, Firestore, IPod, Laptop or even a Desktop computer, this camera gives you that option. If you like 16mm, instead of the HVX, go and get yourself an A-minima. Great camera, small size but you are going to pay for the body, lens, film, development, color correction, etc. Film and HD are just tools to capture your images. Both have their uses. Both have their pros and cons. Use whats best for you and your project.

 

[PanasonicNZ]

Information on P2 cards (or transferred to HDDs for that matter) is already divided in folders and files, in other words is IT ready from the camera. Compare this with tape formats where what comes from the camera is a long data stream eithe via firewire either via other capturing interfaces. Archiving P2 is as easy as burning a data DVD with the selected files (shots that you want to keep). It is not direct archiving, like other formats, because you have to transfer to a permanent media, but the cost savings and reliability of optical discs are second to none. One hour of 1080 i or p or 720/60p when compressed in DVCPRO HD takes about 60GB, or about 12-13 4.7GB DVD discs. 720/24p takes only about 25GB, or less than 6 discs 4.7GB. Given the price of DVDs these days, you tell me which is cheapest. I must emphasize,when I say DVD I mean DATA as on P2 cards, not DVDs that will play on your DVD player. There other options that will become available shortly - bluray, holografic media and any other large capacity/cheap support. I used DVD discs as an example because they are readily avaialble, burners and media are cheap as chips and the final result (providing you use a good brand of discs) will outlast any digital tape. Think about what a dropout does to long GOP (I'm tempted to call it long DROP) HDV. Shelved tapes WILL show dropouts after a period of time, it's in their nature.
You HAVE to change your workflow and you must includetime for archiving at the end of each job, but it is an easy and straightforward process which will become increasingly shorter. Hope this helps.

 

[KnockOutFilms]

Archiving P2 is as easy as burning a data DVD with the selected files (shots that you want to keep). It is not direct archiving, like other formats, because you have to transfer to a permanent media, but the cost savings and reliability of optical discs are second to none. One hour of 1080 i or p or 720/60p when compressed in DVCPRO HD takes about 60GB, or about 12-13 4.7GB DVD discs. 720/24p takes only about 25GB, or less than 6 discs 4.7GB. Given the price of DVDs these days, you tell me which is cheapest. I must emphasize,when I say DVD I mean DATA as on P2 cards, not DVDs that will play on your DVD player.

No offence but I don't think (current) DVDs are an archive option. Right off the start you will probably be forced to split long clips as they may be too big for 1 DVD. This option seems really like a pain in the butt work around. Maybe for the very short term I would do it.

I do 100% agree with you that once BlueRay or HDDVD truly arrives, that will be an excellent archive format. Going from 4.7 to 50 or 60 gigs is a major step. I must admit that I didn't really think about the emerging DVD technology as an archive, but that really takes a bit of the edge off the worry.

I was at NAB, and as I understand it, HD DVD is here now? sort of? but can it currently do just Data? or just the Apple HD desktop codec for QT. I've read about it, but my brain hurts with all the contradiction. Toshiba has a player, sortof.

Biggest issue is as you say, as a Data DVD, or next woul dbe a Data HD DVD.

Are you aware of the current news on this?

Cheers,
Chris