Apple shares new ‘Vertical Cinema’ Shot on iPhone short film

You’re kinda illustrating my point with this reply :)

Because, yes, yes indeed, it can be a creative choice. Just because it originated in amateur or even “incompetent” users doesn’t negate that... what do you think shaky cam originated in, not in productions that could afford dolly tracks and dollies and good tripods and good stedicams and so on. Shaky footage was seen as a FLAW and mark of incompetence... until it became an artistic choice. Grain... it originated in cheap stock, poor or excessive blow up of 8/16mm, poor development and insufficient lighting, it was seen as a BAD thing, and then it became a creative choice where people actually add it in. How do you think cinema verite started? Your focus on what’s “technically correct” vs “legitimate” creative choice, illustrates what I said - you’re looking at things too narrowly - and in fact ahistorically and not accurately. You’re a techie.

Now, can vertical be done badly and all kinds of people complain - well OF COURSE. So can unstable footage and grainy footage and a million other flaws - because that’s what happens when they’re used *without* creative intent. But when used with intent, they become tools, sometimes even whole genres and movements like Cinema Verite, and “found footage”. It’s like in music, where amateur and unpolished and limited were all terrible amateur flaws... until it became a whole genre like punk and a whole ethos and a whole way of making music and producing albums. In the early days of punk, you’d be the guy complaining about lack of clean sound and missed notes and poor musicianship. You’d miss the point. And you’re missing the point here. Because, demonstrably, it was a creative choice in the case of the very film that started this thread - intentionally using vertical.

And no, 2.35:1 is not in any way how “humans see” - yes, we have eyes next to each other, but not on the sides of our heads like cows. Sorry, it’s just a convention, exactly like vertical is a convention. Now, I think that vertical is a very limited tool, I doubt it’ll give rise to a whole movement (though I could be wrong!), but it’s no more or less of a convention than is anamorphic.

Look, it’s all a creative choice - 2.35:1 included. Art is bigger than a technical specification.

One can ***** and moan about vertical video all they want. But there is a market for it, it has it's uses for social media and if someone wants to pay me to shoot a project vertically, as long as the check clears, let's do it!
I've almost been hired to shoot a few higher end vertical projects but they have fallen through for reasons having nothing to do with the vertical video aspect. One of our clients is a trade show exihibit company and in trade
shows exhibits, vertical video is a thing, but primarely when used graphically with a little live action.

But if you are shooting a huge raster, very little logical reason to shoot vertically, you just reframe it, in a pan and scan way that gives you some freedom to decide what is seen in that narrow vertical strip.
 
To an extent, I agree OC. I just think Vertical Video is being forced upon us because of a (bad) technical reason: lazy people that can't be bothered to rotate their phones(both in shooting it and viewing it). It's neither here nor there, now, but I would be willing to bet that if phone cameras had kept working like they used to, especially BlackBerry's(holding the phones "vertically" still resulted in horizontal video/pictures, because they oriented the cameras "correctly", because they knew that the phones would be held "vertically"), we would not be having these discussions.

I do think how we as humans naturally see(our "aspect ratio") is a good argument against vertical video, or at least helps explain why so many of us have an aversion to it. I also think why vertical can work for still images and portraits and not video, is because stills and portraits are not moving, whereas video is and we, through our vision, are observing a constantly moving, live, world, as well. Just my thoughts on that.

And as a member of the "audience", vertical video turns me off.
 
Of course intention doesn't mean squat. Neither does origin ("Vertical video is a spec designed around viewing format" - uhm, so what?), what matters is the ultimate effect on the audience as Run&Gun says.

You're missing my point, amigo. Like for 4:3 small TVs - TV was shot with a preponderance of close-ups and ECUs. This was a limitation and while it led to some cool shots, it also precluded many.

Contrast that with Avatar in 3D - Cameron chose to shoot 3D and developed the technology he needed. I thought it was crap - unnecessary, unwieldy, ineffective and unenjoyable. But it was a choice, not a necessity based on viewing limitations.

And most importantly - I've never seen a vertical format film I've enjoyed. Show me one!

We're social animals and most socializing happens laterally. You can't do a proper 2-shot or 3-shot in vertical without a very wide framing. But the audience is watching on a tiny screen, so then they won't see facial detail. Tricky
 
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Like for 4:3 small TVs - TV was shot with a preponderance of close-ups and ECUs. This was a limitation and while it led to some cool shots, it also precluded many.

Nope, it is you who is missing the point. Limitation is what drives a LOT of art. Indeed, some artists revel in limitations to such a degree that they impose those on themselves - see Dogma 95. In fact that's the history of cinema - done around limitations; lighting schemes famously so, because of film stock speed, set vs exteriors and so on. Even financially speaking. How do you think Film Noir developed? It developed from budgetary limitations, sets and exteriors and led to the development of lighting schemes. It's like in physics, every action has a reaction. Every limitation has inherent in it great possibilities. Like in the example I gave - in horror I can see how vertical would be a fantastic "limitation" that leads to greatness. You have not seen a great vertical movie? Well, maybe it's just not for you - the way whole genres are not for me and other people hate musicals or 3D films. Besides, it's still early times - you can't judge where vertical will go, give it time, maybe you'll find something you'll love one day :) Remember, every technique has limitations - just in different places - and vertical is no different in that respect.

You can't do a proper 2-shot or 3-shot in vertical without a very wide framing. But the audience is watching on a tiny screen, so then they won't see facial detail. Tricky.

Where some see limitations, others see possibilities, half a glass full/empty. You are only limited by your imagination. An artist understands that, but perhaps not every techie :) :) :)
 
Like for 4:3 small TVs - TV was shot with a preponderance of close-ups and ECUs. This was a limitation and while it led to some cool shots, it also precluded many.

Nope, it is you who is missing the point. Limitation is what drives a LOT of art. Indeed, some artists revel in limitations to such a degree that they impose those on themselves - see Dogma 95.

Of course limitations drive art. But when I watch ECU-ridden TV from before the Breaking Bad era, I feel a lack. Actually, I was rewatching some Breaking Bad recently and the CUs felt a bit tight.

When folks on this forum talk about 4K, 8K, 12K, one of the things they say is how great the resolution looks on their massive 4K TVs.

We can put in the effort to make a better screening situation so as to enjoy higher-quality video.

Or we can put in the effort to make video that can be enjoyed lazily on a measly screen.

It is what it is. You have to give the audience what it wants.

I would prefer a "rotate your phone" PSA campaign...

When I shoot vertically, I try to kick ass and use the format advantageously. I don't often shoot 2.35:1

Sometimes people ask you to shoot without the necessary lighting, or in half the time you'd like. Yay! Limitations!
 
PSA. Ha! The audience is a mass of dullards. Back in the 4:3 days of TV, the audience didn't understand why those black bars were blocking the image on the TV. Remember this PSA?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m1-pP1-5K8

Yes. I had this discussion/debate/argument/what-have-you with this customer at my family's store one day(one of the things they sold were TV's). I had already been in this business for years and I had stopped in for some reason and while I was there, started talking to this older lady who was complaining about the letterboxed movie playing on the big screen(and letterboxed movies on TV, in-general). In her mind, part of the image was being covered up and she was not "seeing everything". I patiently tried to explain to her what was going on, even drawing diagrams, blah, blah, blah and she kept saying that part of the image was missing/being covered up. No matter how I explained it or examples I gave, she would just laugh and say that part of the picture was being covered up. Kind of like the people that believe the Earth is flat. Everything you give as proof somehow "supports" their belief, instead. This went on for probably longer than it should have, before I just walked off.
 
Well, I sympathize, but I've long since reached the conclusion "if you can't beat them, join them" - i.e., you gotta accept the audience for who they are. It's not a school/university, it's a theater/entertainment. Arguing with the audience is worse than arguing with critics - there are more of them than there is time in the universe to "educate" all of 'em. So, you make the film FOR the audience, you don't try to stand in front of the screen and try to explain to them why they should enjoy what they clearly don't. Look, there are plenty of movies which I think audiences have overlooked unfairly (sometimes they come around way too late - see "Blade Runner" among so many others), and conversely there is a mass of films that have unearned popularity (IMHO), but at the end of the day, the audience are the final judges. Like it or not. Plus, there are many trends that wear out their welcome - extreme shaky cam is gone, thank Lord, and shaky cam is used more sparingly. No need to panic, vertical might be a passing fad. Or not. Either way, your job is to entertain the audience you have, not the audience you wish you had (thank you, Rumsfeld :)).

I don't think PSAs will do it. Instead, you work with what you have, and make the best of it. No use complaing about "the kids today" from your front lawn, adapt or die. You don't have to do what you don't like to do, you find your own niche, if you don't like vertical, don't use it... but don't waste time arguing against it, fighting popular trends is like whipping the sea.
 
Well, I sympathize, but I've long since reached the conclusion "if you can't beat them, join them" - i.e., you gotta accept the audience for who they are

... but don't waste time arguing against it, fighting popular trends is like whipping the sea.

I'll gladly shoot 9:16 if I'm paid to. As long as the check clears, I'll shoot whatever aspect ratio you want

Dont waste time arguing? What is dvxuser for if not pissing and moaning? I also complain in this forum about the direction of the next Star Wars movie even though, surprisingly, no one has asked me to shoot it yet. Cameramen are fans first.

I was just joking about a PSA. But right now it feels like we're all going to one big family movie night. And the station wagon is full of whiny brats who want to watch Vertical Vlogger: The Movie while we want to watch anything else. But there are more of them than of us, as you say, so the choice is theirs.
 
i think this new format is great! I can watch three films at once on my laptop (six on my PC)...

About 5 years ago I helped out a photographer friend doing an amateur fashion shoot with some video. When the models looked at the video during a break they could not understand why for a catwalk video I had the video "on it's side" and could I get the camera to shoot "properly" ie vertical.....

The problem is a lot of the youngsters only watch video on their mobile phone. Many only have internet access via their phones and no land line internet at home.
I don't think the majority will want vertical but a huge minority will think it is "normal".
 
i think this new format is great! I can watch three films at once on my laptop (six on my PC)...

About 5 years ago I helped out a photographer friend doing an amateur fashion shoot with some video. When the models looked at the video during a break they could not understand why for a catwalk video I had the video "on it's side" and could I get the camera to shoot "properly" ie vertical.....

The problem is a lot of the youngsters only watch video on their mobile phone. Many only have internet access via their phones and no land line internet at home.
I don't think the majority will want vertical but a huge minority will think it is "normal".

And herein lies part of the problem. That it is becoming “normal”, at least to a lot of people.
 
And herein lies part of the problem. That it is becoming “normal”, at least to a lot of people.

Much the same in still photography a decade ago. Point and shoot digital cameras, consumer DSLR's and then phones that produced "good enough" photography for web sites, family portraits, weddings, and journalism etc coupled with the over supply of new people wanting to be photographers because they had a "reasonable" digital camera and a laptop (no darkroom required) took the guts out of the still photography market.

Now all you need for being a videographer is a mirror less camera that does video and a short shotgun perched on top.
Well it was until this Apple video and really all you need is your phone.
It's good enough for a lot of people.....
 
Here's a pretty nice ad for Samsung phones and TVs - "shoot in 8K" (my god!) and "watch in 8K" (my god!)

But their video, though shot on a cell phone, is shot landscape-orientation. What were they thinking?! Maybe it's so it can be showed on a TV? But people only watch things on their phones these days, right? (I'm half-surprised the TV isn't mounted portrait-orientation)

 
Here's a pretty nice ad for Samsung phones and TVs - "shoot in 8K" (my god!) and "watch in 8K" (my god!)

But their video, though shot on a cell phone, is shot landscape-orientation. What were they thinking?! Maybe it's so it can be showed on a TV? But people only watch things on their phones these days, right? (I'm half-surprised the TV isn't mounted portrait-orientation)


Just wait until TV's come with vertical mounting stands (some time next week in the Apple & Samsung stores)
 
To be fair as soon as we got wide screen LCD monitors there were many that could turn vertical for typists working on A4/US letter or graphics artists working on posters. However resolutions and screen sizes increased to render these obsolete in all but a few specialist areas.

The mounts as shown above are normaly used in landscape mode. They are used in classrooms and conferences. However as the VESA screw holes are usually(?) in a square pattern you can mount the screen vertically.

How about a challenge to the first photo of a genuine Vertical screen in the wild showing vertically shot video?
No cash prize you will just be immortalised for ever in this thread
 
Just wait until TV's come with vertical mounting stands (some time next week in the Apple & Samsung stores)

To be fair as soon as we got wide screen LCD monitors there were many that could turn vertical for typists working on A4/US letter or graphics artists working on posters. However resolutions and screen sizes increased to render these obsolete in all but a few specialist areas.

The mounts as shown above are normaly used in landscape mode. They are used in classrooms and conferences. However as the VESA screw holes are usually(?) in a square pattern you can mount the screen vertically.

How about a challenge to the first photo of a genuine Vertical screen in the wild showing vertically shot video?
No cash prize you will just be immortalised for ever in this thread

Samsung has already been marketing a “vertical” TV, or at least a TV that rotates 90 to be vertical.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/29/18522287/samsung-sero-vertical-tv-price-release-date-millennials

Even News Shooter or Red Shark did an article on it.

The word processing use actually made a lot of sense, at least at the time. It was like looking at a life sized(or larger) representation of the actual document being typed up, so there wasn’t any scrolling or zooming needed on an individual page.
 
Yeah I think there are lots of things that benefit from portrait-orientation display

My issue is when stuff is shot and shown portrait-orientation just because it's easier to do one-handed

And one unintended consequence may be an even increasing focus on narcissistic single-person medium and close up shots because they naturally fill the frame. Which could only intensify the self-centered anti-communal sentiment that has come to dominate our society
 
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