Anyone use the MC-11? I have a theory...

M. Gilden

M. Gilden

Canon DSLR Moderator
Initial reviews on Sigma's MC-11 adapter seem to imply that it fell short of our expectations (make Sigma lenses act like native ones on E-mount). Thing is, some people demonstrate it working quite well on some cameras, and not on others. Even with Canon lenses (not Sigma). Others, even with Sigma lenses on their list, seem to be having worse performance than metabones.

I have a theory, but I'd like to speak to someone who owns one and could test something for me. I'd rather not buy one myself, especially if I'm right about this.
 
Looking at your previous post on another thread, I think I know what your theory is, and yes, I wouldn't want one either if Sony is playing those nasty games.
 
I have this amazing theory, which if true will change all of our lives. It will affect the video/filmmaking industry as a whole. In fact, it may put half of us out of business. Of course, this is a video forum, a place to share such theories. But this one is just too dark. I’d be afraid to share it here. So I’ll wait for someone to plead with me to share it.
 
LOL Jim- sorry for the cryptic post. Wasn't intentional. I started this thread off as a rant, then deleted it when I realized I might be wrong about how some of this works since I don't have all the equipment in front of me to test it first. I'd rather check if what I'm saying is true before running my mouth. :)

But I think we should stop getting our hopes up that the next FE lens will ever be mechanical focus anytime soon... I think we're stuck with focus by wire as long as they are supporting contrast-detection systems, and I think the MC-11 proves why. But this is just a theory. Nothing deep or dark, nothing groundbreaking, just something that occurred to me that I haven't seen anyone talk about yet.
 
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(my guess was that you thought Sony had broken the Sigma adapter with a firmware release; I now think the theory is not that)
 
Ok, I wanted to see if I was onto something before I started running my mouth about an idea I could be totally off with, but here goes:
I think contrast-detect focus systems require focus-by-wire lenses in order to move efficiently. Whenever a new lens gets announced, all the fanboys get excited that this will finally be the lens that offers fast AF *and* manual focus gears. But that might just not be realistic anytime soon. And why we shouldn't have gotten excited about the MC-11.
The A7ii, A7Rii and A6300 can all focus Canon and other DSLR lenses quickly because they support PDAF for adapted glass. Since PDAF measures distance first, it allows the lens to make one quick movement- so even a slower lens can focus relatively quickly. The A7 original, A7R, A6000 also have PDAF points, but they are only available to native lenses. The MC-11, I think, works great for those cameras because it allows them to drive native DSLR lenses with PDAF. When you have a lens with a motor driving a mechanical focus gear, it means it is going to be doing a heavier task and consequently moving slower than a focus-by-wire lens which can be designed to do a quick precise movements so that all that hunting back-and-forth happens in a less than a second. However, driving a slow DSLR lens like that, and we're going to see the 3-5 second mess that is a metabones/commlite on an A7S right now.

In other words: Those of us with contrast-based focus E-mount cameras, and that means old NEX bodies, A7S, FS-series camcorders, etc... should not get their hopes up of ever having an AF lens with a mechanical focus gear. No adapter will make that possible, and unless some incredible feat of engineering changes how efficiently motors can move, it might just not ever be possible. More likely, the next A7S/FS camcorder/etc will have phase detection points on the sensor like the current wave of mark ii bodies, and THAT will change things for the better. Then, once all the contrast-based bodies have died off and no longer need to be supported, THEN Sony can make mechanical gear driven lenses that will work on all their bodies.

I could be wrong, so please, if anyone has any experiences or information that conflicts with my theory, I'd love to have a discussion about this!
 
Mordy, I thought it was because of the aliens. The interplanetary type. This is, frankly, a letdown.
 
DLD said:
Mordy, I thought it was because of the aliens. The interplanetary type. This is, frankly, a letdown.
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Ha, that's the second part. I don't discuss that one until we're in international waters on the cruise ship Freewinds.
 
That makes a lot of sense to me.

It's not a conspiracy of any kind, it's just different motors being best at doing different things. For decades lenses were designed with PDAF in mind, and motors were developed that would move very fast and accurately to a predetermined target.

Now we have found that they have a limitation: they are incredibly well optimized for the "go there --> done" process but they can only take so many "go there" commands per second, which is a problem for contrast detect AF.

As a result, new motors were introduced: Canon brought STM lenses, while m43, Fuji and Sony E all use linear electromagnetic focusing. All of those are designed so that they work great both in the "go here --> done" mode of PDAF and in the "switch often" mode of CDAF. And the good thing is that once development has started on this path, they are finding things they can do now that were not possible with previous designs, so we should end up with some additional progress.
 
[h=3]I want to get the adapter but only have the 18-35 and for stills the AF is pretty good with the Metabones adapter on the a6300. Below is the official list of Sigma lenses that are compatible with the MC-11. I've been tempted to get the 24-105 to replace the Canon version due to the light loss at the long end.

Sigma’s list of Sigma EF and SA lenses supported on MC-11:[/h]FULLFRAME:
Sigma 24-35mm F2 DG HSM Art Lens
Sigma 24-105mm F4 DG OS HSM Art Lens
Sigma 120-300mm F2.8 DG OS HSM Sports Lens
Sigma 150-600mm F5-6.3 DG OS HSM Sports Lens
Sigma 150-600mm F5-6.3 DG OS HSM Contemporary Lens
Sigma 20mm F1.4 DG HSM Art Lens
Sigma 24mm F1.4 DG HSM Art Lens
Sigma 35mm F1.4 DG HSM Art Lens
Sigma 50mm F1.4 DG HSM Art Lens
APS-C
Sigma 17-70mm F2.8-4 DC MACRO OS HSM Contemporary Lens
Sigma 18-35mm F1.8 DC HSM Art Lens
Sigma 18-200mm F3.5-6.3 DC MACRO OS HSM Contemporary Lens
Sigma 18-300mm F3.5-6.3 DC MACRO OS HSM Contemporary Lens
Sigma 50-100mm F1.8 DC HSM Art Lens
Sigma 30mm F1.4 DC HSM Art Lens


Notes: MC-11 is not compatible with teleconverters. The MC-11 mount converter has a USB port that allows adapter firmware to updated for compatibility with future Sigma lenses.
 
Erik, you have quite a few cameras if I recall- Ever try the MC-11 on the A7S or A6000 (or preferably both)?
Erik Naso said:
I want to get the adapter but only have the 18-35 and for stills the AF is pretty good with the Metabones adapter on the a6300. Below is the official list of Sigma lenses that are compatible with the MC-11. I've been tempted to get the 24-105 to replace the Canon version due to the light loss at the long end.

Sigma’s list of Sigma EF and SA lenses supported on MC-11:

FULLFRAME:
Sigma 24-35mm F2 DG HSM Art Lens
Sigma 24-105mm F4 DG OS HSM Art Lens
Sigma 120-300mm F2.8 DG OS HSM Sports Lens
Sigma 150-600mm F5-6.3 DG OS HSM Sports Lens
Sigma 150-600mm F5-6.3 DG OS HSM Contemporary Lens
Sigma 20mm F1.4 DG HSM Art Lens
Sigma 24mm F1.4 DG HSM Art Lens
Sigma 35mm F1.4 DG HSM Art Lens
Sigma 50mm F1.4 DG HSM Art Lens
APS-C
Sigma 17-70mm F2.8-4 DC MACRO OS HSM Contemporary Lens
Sigma 18-35mm F1.8 DC HSM Art Lens
Sigma 18-200mm F3.5-6.3 DC MACRO OS HSM Contemporary Lens
Sigma 18-300mm F3.5-6.3 DC MACRO OS HSM Contemporary Lens
Sigma 50-100mm F1.8 DC HSM Art Lens
Sigma 30mm F1.4 DC HSM Art Lens


Notes: MC-11 is not compatible with teleconverters. The MC-11 mount converter has a USB port that allows adapter firmware to updated for compatibility with future Sigma lenses.
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egproductions said:
Mr. Gilden, i own an mc-11 and live just west of NYC (jersey)
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Well hello there potential neighbor! I'm just north of the city, right by the NY/NJ border (Rockland County). Out of curiosity, what Sony cameras do you have that you've tried it with?
 
M. Gilden said:
Erik, you have quite a few cameras if I recall- Ever try the MC-11 on the A7S or A6000 (or preferably both)?
Click to expand...

I haven't tried the adapter and I sold off my A7 cameras. I still have the a6000 and the a6300 but decided to stay away from adapters since most of my experience with them as been pretty disappointing. I mainly use native Sony lenses. My headaches instantly went away :-D

I don't use a follow focus hardly ever so the focus by wire thing isn't an issue and the continuous AF with the a6300 is so crazy good I'm embracing it.
 
M. Gilden said:
Well hello there potential neighbor! I'm just north of the city, right by the NY/NJ border (Rockland County). Out of curiosity, what Sony cameras do you have that you've tried it with?
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Monsey/Spring Valley is 35 min away on 287.

I have a Sony FS7 that I use it with (so really don't utilize the AF functionality of the MC-11).

Here is my original thread when I first got it:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?346588-Sigma-MC-11-not-looking-so-good&highlight=
 
The theory is right AFAIK.

Sony do a range of LA-EA adapters for the A mount lenses. Some of them are a straight through electronic adapter but one of them has a translucent mirror and PDAF sensor built into the adaptor itself, so cameras that are only contrast detect can AF using PDAF - which is the distance measuring sensor, so one motor move.

The other thing to take into account is that some of these focus by wires aren't that accurate in that you can tell them to move to X, because they work on the principal that they will overshoot, come back, and find focus then there's no concept of focusing at a set distance, no calibration etc,.

IMHO there's an untapped potential with wireless FF and these focus by wire lenses. I find it amazing that Sony or anyone hasn't opened up an API for driving the lens motors.

The canon mount has a few of these, and there are some nice modules for the Red camera that appear to do this. Of course then you need to know about the lenses because some motors only focus to a certain degree of granularity - some canon lenses were quiet course and you couldn't hit an exact focus. Anyone remember the original Barger mount which AFAIK was the first to try this?

cheers
Paul
 
Thanks Paul-
I actually own one of their translucent-mirror adapters (LA-EA4), and I remember being pleasantly surprised that for stills it not only works great, but actually seems to lock on faster than native E-mount lenses due to the PDAF system in the adapter. I'm very happy with it for photos, even though there is a minuscule drop of light loss with the translucent mirror (fraction of a stop, not concerned on the A7S). However, in video mode we're locked to F/3.5 (or as close as the lens allows) if we want autofocus, and the good A-mount lenses are less plentiful than their Canon counterparts. Also, the adapter makes mounting the camera to a rig sort of difficult, as it sticks out below the bottom of the camera with its own mounting point. I'd much rather invest in Canon lenses also for their future proofing and resell value than A-mount.

The MC-11 seemed like a holy grail for a lot of us- even if it only worked with Sigma lenses, the ones in Canon mount are easy to find/rent, as well as sell to the next person or keep for the next camera body. Others in our camp would just be happy with a lens that acts like a native while still offering mechanical focus when we want it. Sadly, I think that is exactly the problem- our contrast focus cameras will never be able to drive a traditional DSLR lens motor properly. I know there is one FE lens with a manual gear, a macro I think. I wonder how they manage that, and if that lens is a bit slower to AF than other FE lenses?

Meanwhile, I'm curious how well the MC-11 works on cameras that have PDAF points but don't support the third party AF thing directly. In other words, does it work as well on the A6000 as it does on the A6300? It seems that people were cautiously impressed with it on the A6000, saying it was definitely faster than using a metabones or commlite. Eric, what's your take on that?
 
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