Anyone defected to a C100 or C300?

Thank Mcgee and others.

We all seek that camera that will give us the image. FOr many they might read that post as a total bash on the BMC. It isn't. If you take it that way you're what is called a fanboy.
When I shot my first tests with the BMC and opened the files my jaw dropped. It wasn't until I put it to work that reality started to hit. Weight, moire, ergonomics, RAW archive space, etc etc.. I was just forced to look for a camera with "balance". THe capability of doing many things right and little things wrong, even if there are wrongs. Which is why I will still recommend the AF100 to guys that are trying to get into a true video system coming from Dslr or just starting. For me it was about condensing and being compatible so I went to the C100.

There is this thought out there that "if" one just has a certain camera that they will become a better shooter overnight. It's nice to have proper tools. But the proper tools are only as good as you are. There is not a single camera that makes one a better photographer. You either have it or you don't. I see things on vimeo every day were the headline is more about what they shot it on than what the piece is about or why. I think to myself, "That could have been shot on a T2i and I would feel the same about it". Then sometimes when there is discussion about this and that camera, people will get VERY passionate about defending a certain camera (probably why Barry avoids a certain website). THe first thing one should consider is NOT everyone shoots the same thing nor cares too. Stuff like "you're stupid avchd 8 bit camera is a wedding camera, not a professional cinema camera". Honestly, I laugh at those people. They expose to me that they see the image on paper written down as camera specs. Plus, I don't get why people bash wedding shooting. It's just about the hardest thing to do properly. ANd when done right and shot wonderfully, there is just as much talent in that wedding video as there is shot in some indie feature. Stop pecker checking and appreciate that filming things comes in many forms and at the same time, there are many cameras out there that do something better than the next.

So people considering selling a camera for another camera (and we will use the AF100 here). Do you NEED that other camera or do you WANT that other camera? Will that camera make you any better for what YOU shoot, and will it lead to greater income? If you come at me with "My clients demand the best and will settle for no less". Well, to me that says you possibly have the budget to rent anyway and you shouldn't have a problem. If your thinking is I get hired with the camera I shoot on, then you are just as good as a technician. I'd be more concerned about being hired for the time and sweat I put in to my craft. Why do the BIG boys use BIG cameras? Because they can afford too. So the hipster producers see that BIG camera and think that is the only way. OR it's the other way around. I shot for the promo of the show Dexter. THey wanted me to shoot on the Canon 5dMk2 against green screen. (My avatar). Why? Because it was hip. I told them there was better technology and they insisted, 5dmk2! In the end I won but still I found it baffling that they wanted the HIP camera instead of a more proper tool.

People call the BMC some sort of revolutionary game changer. In some ways yes. Too me, the single biggest game changers of large chip HD shooting are the 5dmk2 and the AF100. It was the AF100 that lead to the FS100/700, F3, F5, C300/100. I think Panny can do it again and I think they will. Someday there is going to be the AF200 that will be packed with a great codec and shoot to micro p2. And we will all be in the marketplace dumping our cameras that we are shooting on now. Have you seen the F3's for sale used?

Cameras will always get better. No company is going to take large steps backwards. But man, we are at a point that all of these cameras are capable. Just pick the one that is compatible with you and your shooting needs. I still remember the first shots I loaded up from the AF100. Just like the BMC, my jaw dropped!

And if you think the AF100 can't take great pictures? May I suggest you take a look at one of our very own users work here by the name "shooter". He is proof that it's the craft and skill level, not the camera.
 
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I switched over from the AF100, having it for a few years and I really like the image quality, low light capabilities, ergonomics and many other things of the C100. I don't regret the purchase at all.
 
There should perhaps be a law (analogous to Godwin's Law) that states that as a camera related discussion thread progresses, the probability of the topic at hand switching to the BMC quickly approaches 1. :grin:


That said, I couldn't help but comment here:

People will say, "Have fun doing your VFX in Canon's 8 bit". I don't do VFX. The biggest VFX I need is green sceen and the C100 handles it just fine.

The implication is that the BMC would be more VFX friendly than a C100 or an AF100, but I would contend that is not necessarily true. The BMC's sensor exhibits quite a lot of rolling-shutter skew, about on par with a DSLR, but not as good as say, an AF100. That skew can make tracking difficult. Yes, there are ways to deal with it, but I'm lazy and would rather not have to correct for it. For that reason, I'd personally rather use an AF100 or C100 over the BMC, even if the former are only 8-bit. A global-shutter camera would be better still. That's just IMHO, of course.
 
There should perhaps be a law (analogous to Godwin's Law) that states that as a camera related discussion thread progresses, the probability of the topic at hand switching to the BMC quickly approaches 1. :grin:


That said, I couldn't help but comment here:



The implication is that the BMC would be more VFX friendly than a C100 or an AF100, but I would contend that is not necessarily true. The BMC's sensor exhibits quite a lot of rolling-shutter skew, about on par with a DSLR, but not as good as say, an AF100. That skew can make tracking difficult. Yes, there are ways to deal with it, but I'm lazy and would rather not have to correct for it. For that reason, I'd personally rather use an AF100 or C100 over the BMC, even if the former are only 8-bit. A global-shutter camera would be better still. That's just IMHO, of course.
Recently sold my AF100. I plan to purchase the C100 during NAB! Went to the Canon Hollywood Event last night. The C100 ergonomics are perfect! The images out of this camera work for me.
 
The implication is that the BMC would be more VFX friendly than a C100 or an AF100, but I would contend that is not necessarily true. The BMC's sensor exhibits quite a lot of rolling-shutter skew, about on par with a DSLR, but not as good as say, an AF100. That skew can make tracking difficult. Yes, there are ways to deal with it, but I'm lazy and would rather not have to correct for it. For that reason, I'd personally rather use an AF100 or C100 over the BMC, even if the former are only 8-bit. A global-shutter camera would be better still. That's just IMHO, of course.

It probably depends on the shot and the effect. If it's a slow to medium speed dolly or crane shot, then the more detailed, higher resolution picture produced by the BMCC will probably be better for tracking (2D/3D). I also think it's better to shoot 12bit raw for chroma key and 3D integration effects... especially when working in a linear workflow from 3D to composite. Otherwise, I do agree... an AF100 is better when you want to reduce rolling shutter, and a global shutter camera is even better when you want to use faster camera movements in VFX shots.

Personally, I still plan to pick up a BMCC in MFT mostly for VFX and beauty shots. The AF100 continues to be my goto camera for most everything else... even chromakey shots where the the subjects don't have frizzy or fine hairs that are difficult to key. :-)

Shawn
 
I'm an AF 100 owner and have recently shot with the c100 and the c300 and frankly just don't like the form factor of the cameras, bad tiny non movable viewfinder, lcd thats on the back top of the camera with no flexibility, and a removable handle with audio inputs running to the camera. I like the specs on the c300 but not the price. I'm hopping Panasonic comes out with a higher bit rate better codec camera than the af 100 soon, micro p2 would be cool.
 
I posted this some time ago. The Af100 keys just fine:

Yeah, the tools are advanced to the point where you can pull a good key. Of course, the example in question wasn't really taxing. He's the kind of talent you breathe easier because you know your job is easy.

Curly-long hair? Nightmare.
 
It probably depends on the shot and the effect. If it's a slow to medium speed dolly or crane shot, then the more detailed, higher resolution picture produced by the BMCC will probably be better for tracking (2D/3D). I also think it's better to shoot 12bit raw for chroma key and 3D integration effects... especially when working in a linear workflow from 3D to composite. Otherwise, I do agree... an AF100 is better when you want to reduce rolling shutter, and a global shutter camera is even better when you want to use faster camera movements in VFX shots.

I must agree. It depends on the shot. Personally, I'm hoping that the Digital Bolex materializes as a real, working product sometime soon, as they are promising 12-bit raw AND a global shutter for about the same price as an AF100. Yeah, the sensor is "only" S16 sized, and yeah, it bares a striking resemblance to a toaster, but it'd be great for VFX...at least on paper.
 
I posted this some time ago. The Af100 keys just fine:

https://vimeo.com/20035191

I do agree that you can get some useful keyes out the AF100. I'm able to use it for most of my chromakey shots. But for the difficult shots, sometimes you really do need the extra chroma information that a camera like the BMCC can provide. To be honest though, the higher dynamic range, detail and resolution are more important to me than the 4:2:2 color space.

Thanks,

Shawn
 
...Personally, I'm hoping that the Digital Bolex materializes as a real, working product sometime soon, as they are promising 12-bit raw AND a global shutter for about the same price as an AF100..

I'm also hopeful about the Digital Bolex... the more good tools on the market the better.

...Yeah, the sensor is "only" S16 sized, and yeah, it bares a striking resemblance to a toaster, but it'd be great for VFX...at least on paper.

I completely agree. Not sure why so many people are down on the S16 sensor size though, I would be thrilled to shoot in the digital equivalent of 16mm film. :-)

Shawn
 
Great write up Dusty. You are worth your weight in "gold dust". :)

I own a C300 and had planned to get a BMC for use in one shoot towards the last part of the year. I thought the BMC would have resolved their issues in another 6-7 months. However, you killed it. A Big Thank You to you. I can't deal with moire. At times you may rip apart a talent's clothes :) but I can't ask an elephant to shed its skin. Nor can I ask a croc or a leopard. I guess BMC version 2.0 will be another two years. Gear lust takes us no where. Using the current camera and extracting the maximum juice out of it should be the aim.


Well, I have an xf105. It mimics the EVF in the C100. The XF300's evf mimics the C300. THe evf for me is just for framing. I don't rely on it for exposure. I see the peaking in the EVF so I'm having little issues focusing. Most times my shot is on sticks or slider and I set focus off the LCD. If I need an EVF and critical focus, I attach and external EVF, like I would on any camera such as a DSLR, AF100, F3, RED. So the EVF is functional as a framing device for me on the C100. Could it have been better. For sure! But it has not made me think twice of the C100's purchase. Again, if it's an issue I just attach the external EVF anyway and problem is solved.

Ahhhhh, the BMC. Where to start? First, the image is great. Or shall I say can be great. 8 out of 10 times it's great. For me (FOR ME), I have the need for wide shots and not just close ups of faces like you see in narrative work. I shot a couple projects with it and ran into many shots where the dreaded moire popped up. Just plain ruined the shots. And here I bought an AF100 2 years ago to overcome the 5dMk2's issue of moire. So with the BMC "I" felt even with it's beautiful color science, I took a step backwards with its issue with moire. I'd got use to not having to ask an interviewee if it were possible to change their shirt because my camera can't record it properly. I have point n shoots that handle moire. THe moire for the things I shoot on the BMC was just unacceptable for "ME".

Then it boiled down to workflow. If you have RAW, you're gonna want to shoot RAW. I mean why not? You don't buy a Corvette to drive 35 mph all the time right. "But there's Prores" scream the fanboys. Fine, there's Prores, that still moires. For "ME" and what I shoot, uncompressed RAW and its workflow didn't jive. Or let's say the trade off "if" the image hit wasn't worth it. People will say, "Have fun doing your VFX in Canon's 8 bit". I don't do VFX. The biggest VFX I need is green sceen and the C100 handles it just fine.

13 stops!!!!! OK. I come from slide film. Slide film had at best 8 stops. Usually 7 of useable detailed DR. 12 stops for 99% of what I shoot is a luxury, which I usually end up grading to a high contrast punchy color anyway. So it wasn't a real trade off letting go of the BMC on that end either. If I need 15 stops DR, I'll rent the camera that delivers it. It's just a new marketing ploy these days anyway. "THis camera has 12.4 stops DR and that one has 12.8". Come on....

Ergonomics! C100 wins there over the BMC and nearly every camera I've ever filmed with.

Just the continuing issues with the BMC. EF mount? Whoever was remotely involved in the development and conception of the EF mount on a M4/3 sized sensor is a complete and utter moron. Lots of users here have shot with the AF100 and GH2. Has there been a single lens that can cover the M/43 sensor that you have failed to mount? That is the brilliance of the M4/3. As long as the image circle is big enough you can shoot with it in the format. Then back that up that most EOS glass doesn't even talk to the BMC! Then back back that up with the fact that BMC made the darn flange wrong! "Well, I planned to mount my Zeiss with adapters and stuff". Great, mount that crap on the M4/3 mount! Finding a wide angle solution on the EF version of the BMC is just wayyyyyyy too limited. Total failure designing that camera in EF mount.

THe BMC is a version 1.0 camera. It's cheap. So if anything it WILL be improved upon either by BMD themselves or another company. If not, then make the M4/3 and make it available over the counter, slap a Mosaic Engineering VAF in it and maybe I'll buy it again. Or just wait for the improved product (by the time a M4/3 BMC is over the counter available, there might be that other solution?????).

So the camera in it's current state didn't fit "ME". Others will find total joy with it. It can and does produce great images. Just watch what your subject is wearing.

The C100 had what I needed. I shoot stills and video. For stills I have lots of EOS glass. My lenses go from my MK3 to my C100 and can pack in a single carry on. THe C100 has built in ND. ANy Af100 user understands the luxury of that. Waveform, peaking, microphone built in, XLR, headphone out, and connectivity to external recorder. All in check. It's super ergonomic. Does not moire (at least I haven't seen it). Produces a crisp sharp detailed image. It's S35. If I need Cine optics I have zero problems renting the Canon Cinema lenses. They're awesome. No slo mo but if I really really need it I can either convert the 1080/60i or use my MK3 (or rent a C300 or FS700 or EPIC or F5 or F3 or even the AF100). I'm getting tired of overcrank anyway. Two small batteries and a couple SD cards and I can shoot all day. Plus, I really like working in the Wide DR profile on the C100. Plus, I don't need to rig it beyond what it has. Maybe a external monitor here and there or recorder. No cages, no top handles, not even a shoulder mount. I've got a ton of 15mil rails I'm using to destroy dandelions out in my front yard. I just need two now if I need to mount a follow focus.

But thats just me. Apples and oranges and maybe a bit bananas. Pick the fruit that works for you. I don't nor plan to shoot the next Avengers. And if I do, I'll rent what I need because if you are shooting something like that you have the budget to do so. I worked for 2 years with the AF100 and loved it. Price per pound there might not be a better camera. I just wanted a single ecosystem and I picked with what my largest investment is in image wise and that is my EOS glass. And I'm super pleased with the C100 fitting that bill. I might be done chasing cameras for the next 2 years or more. Plus, both the BMC and the C100 paid themselves off so that is good. My Af100 paid itself off 40 times over. All on stupid little corporate jobs. It fits me.
 
Thanks for the insight, Dustylense. I was having dinner with a mate of mine the other night - he's a very competent Davinci colourist and represents BM at trade shows and we were wondering why the BMCC is taking on such a love it/hate it reputation - sounds like you may have found some of it's weaknesses. He also mentioned that BM were having issues sourcing sensors - and that was causing delays in shipping.

Useful feedback on the C100. We're getting nice pics out of the AF100 and the stuff going into the system from the 2 day shoot this week is looking nice, but continues to lack a "wow' factor with clients that we're able to get from the 5DII. I'm sure you didn't get the C100 just because of your Canon lens collection!

Roll on NAB, but we may have to make a decision before then, as I got a call from a client last night who's ready to green light a project for BT here in the UK and they're particularly excited by the look of the promo we made for Cathay Pacific last year on 5DIIs (air to air was 35mm - everything else on a 5DII. Please ignore the shot of the CEO - that was shot separately by the client, who struggled with focus):


Ben.
 
On my working budgets?

Would I otherwise? Yes.

would have to agree, it's an awfully pricey AVCHD camera. But Dusty has some great points. Wait to see what NAB brings. Having a lcd that allows the camera to be used at a variety of angles would be a huge plus in my work. The relatively fixed c100 lcd seems limiting, given what I've done.
 
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I've owned and operated an AF100 for over 2 years and a few months ago, started shooting on C300 and C100s. Before I shot with the C100, I was complaining about the lack of features (no SDI, no overcrank, no intervalometer) but after being out on multiple shoots with both cameras and taking the image into post, I consider the C100 a STEAL for the money. The image blows the AF100 away. Not even close.

The C100 wins the ergonomics game and it destroys the AF100 in image quality. I was cutting together a C100/Mk2 piece last week and was continually amazed at how much better and cleaner the images from the C100 were than their equivalents on the Mk2. For the individual who said the high ISO stuff was noisy, I'd love to see the footage. Using the Wide DR profile, I can shoot at 3200 ISO on the C100 and it comes out looking great. Bring it into neat video and it looks stunning.

I don't care for the viewfinder, the LCD isn't as moveable as I'd like (prefer the AF100's) and the audio buttons and controls are a bit of a pain to set without looking, but other than that, the camera is spot on. I still use my AF100 for jobs every now and then but don't see myself owning one after this summer.

My .02.
 
I've owned and operated an AF100 for over 2 years and a few months ago, started shooting on C300 and C100s., I consider the C100 a STEAL for the money. The image blows the AF100 away. Not even close.
The C100 wins the ergonomics game and it destroys the AF100 in image quality.
My .02.
Hi Traviswears, I am a 160A owner and am considering an AF102 as a 2nd camera. Have you any examples you can post showing this surprisingly large difference in quality? I have been delighted with my 160 images and assumed that the 102 would be even better. But if there is a quantum leap to be made here, now could be the time. (although I do really like the pannys handling and the fact that the 102 and the 160A are almost identical in their controls.)

Cheers!
Rod
 
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