GH5 Any regrets buying gh5 in light of A7(3)

[Thomas Smet]

A7III Pros:

- better autofocus
- better low-light
- better dynamic range
- lighter body
- larger full-frame sensor(for shallower DOF)

- ok maybe but not everybody uses auto focus. I have failed students that relied on auto focus. Focus is one of those core fundamentals to learning how to shoot with a camera and while auto focus is a nice to have tool not every user puts a lot of stock into auto focus. At least in the high end spectrum of production. No TV show or movie in Hollywood uses auto focus. At least not as the norm.

- maybe but at what point is this no longer relevant. GH5 users already say the GH5s isn't worth it because they find the GH5 to already handle every situation just fine. Not everybody shoots in the dark without the use of lights. Low light is a solid point however and the reason why the GH5s exists.

- Allegedly better dynamic range. Just because Sony prints a spec doesn't mean it is better. Sony tends to have an extremely liberal use of dynamic range. Plus the way to get the most dynamic range is to shoot s-log3 which is crippled by the 8bit codec and the dynamic range eventually hits a ceiling. The dynamic range of the sensor shooting raw stills is very different than the dynamic range shooting to a 8bit video codec. Sony will never tell you if their dynamic range printed spec is for raw stills or for 8bit video. video codecs also affect how much dynamic range is captured and just like the GH5 the Sony cameras need to shoot log in order to get close to what that sensor is capable of. Shoot a baked in profile on the Sony and you are not getting that dynamic range. Like the dingo pointed out the GH5s may be 12 stops but it is also 12 stops at both of the native ISO levels whereas even for raw stills every other DSLR drops dynamic range to around 11 stops. So in theory the A7 III may be less than a stop better at lower ISO levels but a stop worse at higher ISO levels. The GH5s is really the most balanced dynamic range DSLR out there.

- I honestly don't really care about the body weight when talking about a DSLR which is already insanely light for what we get. To me it is such a non issue. Besides sometimes a heavier camera is better to reduce micro jitters caused by wind or cheap tripods. Most m43 users I know of gladly accepted the weight gain through all the GH cameras and rarely ever brought the weight increase as an issue.

- Shallower DOF in terms of what? Lots of factors here and m43 can do a lot with DOF as well. m43 can use a focal reducer which makes it more like a APS-C sensor size in terms of DOF. You are now only one stop away from the same DOF as FF. Shoot f4 comfortably on FF? Well f2.8 is pretty easy to get on m43 even with zoom lenses and can easily match the DOF of FF. This is again such a non issue unless you insist on having razor thin DOF from FF by shooting 50mm f1.2. Optically not the best solution and almost impossible to focus with for serious production work where clients pay you. It honestly only takes a sliver of extra effort to achieve similar DOF on m43. Can't replicate every situation but the importance is much less significant than you think it is. Plus very few Hollywood movies actually use that shallow of DOF. They shoot s35mm (close to APS-C size) and not FF and they tend to stop down their lenses to f4 or f5.6. Extremely easy to match that on m43 and even easier once you add a Speedbooster which essentially makes the GH5 an exact match to s35mm size sensors. On the GH5s using a Speedbooster XL gets you around a 1.2x crop which is half way between APS-C and FF so not a huge difference in terms of DOF.

Change the GH5 in your list to the GH5s and really the only advantage Sony now has is crude IBIS which honestly I wouldn't trust over better solutions.

 

[icarusfilm]

For me the GH5 will work with the EVA1 in Tandem. I owned the a7s, a7s2, and the a6300.
here is why the GH5
-10 Bit 422
-The camera is extremely well designed for use
-No rolling shutter even on a gimbal the sonys have issues.
-Shitty Autofocus: this is great because it stops you from relying on AF which will always screw you in the field
-Great in Low light and shallow DOF if you get the olympus 17mm 1.2 and the 45mm 1.2 that are also switchable to full Manual focus. You get f1.2 light gathering with a 2.4 FF equivalent DOF which is perfect.

- ok maybe but not everybody uses auto focus. I have failed students that relied on auto focus. Focus is one of those core fundamentals to learning how to shoot with a camera and while auto focus is a nice to have tool not every user puts a lot of stock into auto focus. At least in the high end spectrum of production. No TV show or movie in Hollywood uses auto focus. At least not as the norm.

- maybe but at what point is this no longer relevant. GH5 users already say the GH5s isn't worth it because they find the GH5 to already handle every situation just fine. Not everybody shoots in the dark without the use of lights. Low light is a solid point however and the reason why the GH5s exists.

- Allegedly better dynamic range. Just because Sony prints a spec doesn't mean it is better. Sony tends to have an extremely liberal use of dynamic range. Plus the way to get the most dynamic range is to shoot s-log3 which is crippled by the 8bit codec and the dynamic range eventually hits a ceiling. The dynamic range of the sensor shooting raw stills is very different than the dynamic range shooting to a 8bit video codec. Sony will never tell you if their dynamic range printed spec is for raw stills or for 8bit video. video codecs also affect how much dynamic range is captured and just like the GH5 the Sony cameras need to shoot log in order to get close to what that sensor is capable of. Shoot a baked in profile on the Sony and you are not getting that dynamic range. Like the dingo pointed out the GH5s may be 12 stops but it is also 12 stops at both of the native ISO levels whereas even for raw stills every other DSLR drops dynamic range to around 11 stops. So in theory the A7 III may be less than a stop better at lower ISO levels but a stop worse at higher ISO levels. The GH5s is really the most balanced dynamic range DSLR out there.

- I honestly don't really care about the body weight when talking about a DSLR which is already insanely light for what we get. To me it is such a non issue. Besides sometimes a heavier camera is better to reduce micro jitters caused by wind or cheap tripods. Most m43 users I know of gladly accepted the weight gain through all the GH cameras and rarely ever brought the weight increase as an issue.

- Shallower DOF in terms of what? Lots of factors here and m43 can do a lot with DOF as well. m43 can use a focal reducer which makes it more like a APS-C sensor size in terms of DOF. You are now only one stop away from the same DOF as FF. Shoot f4 comfortably on FF? Well f2.8 is pretty easy to get on m43 even with zoom lenses and can easily match the DOF of FF. This is again such a non issue unless you insist on having razor thin DOF from FF by shooting 50mm f1.2. Optically not the best solution and almost impossible to focus with for serious production work where clients pay you. It honestly only takes a sliver of extra effort to achieve similar DOF on m43. Can't replicate every situation but the importance is much less significant than you think it is. Plus very few Hollywood movies actually use that shallow of DOF. They shoot s35mm (close to APS-C size) and not FF and they tend to stop down their lenses to f4 or f5.6. Extremely easy to match that on m43 and even easier once you add a Speedbooster which essentially makes the GH5 an exact match to s35mm size sensors. On the GH5s using a Speedbooster XL gets you around a 1.2x crop which is half way between APS-C and FF so not a huge difference in terms of DOF.

Change the GH5 in your list to the GH5s and really the only advantage Sony now has is crude IBIS which honestly I wouldn't trust over better solutions.

 

[Melvin Harris]

A7III Pros:

- better autofocus
- better low-light
- better dynamic range
- lighter body
- larger full-frame sensor(for shallower DOF)


GH5 Pros:

- 10bit 4:2:2 codecs
- ALL-I codecs
- 4k DCI
- anamorphic modes (open gate 5k)
- anamorphic de-squeeze
- load 4 custom luts for v-log l preview
- better IBIS
- lighter lenses
- 4k 60fps
- 1080 180fps
- variable frame rates
- waveform & vectorscope
- smaller m4/3 sensor (deeper DOF for same aperture)
- full-size HDMI port
- syncro scan
- less rolling shutter
- fully articulating touchscreen

I haven't posted on this site in a great many years, but this has pulled me out of retirement!

+100

To answer the OP's question. For this GH5 user, Open Gate Anamorphic+desqueeze FTW and 10 bit, All-I codecs are just gravy. When Sony does that, I'm thinking of switching. Right now, I'm staying right where I am.

 

[leteeci]

If you so satisfied with GH, why is important if Sony have 8bit or 10bit?

 

[cyvideo]

I think you are confusing delivery with acquisition, as your post revolved around 10-bit display panels, UHD tvs, broadcast delivery, etc.

I know only a handful of people who are interested in the GHx line for 10-bit delivery. It's the 10-bit acquisition that is the magic, and after you've gone to working with footage acquired in 10-bit, you realize how truly lacking Sony's 8-bit acquisition formats are.

That's why I pointed out that for the last few years ALL our acquisition is 422 10-bit in both HD and UHD and all is shot at 50p unless it's a 60p job. Generally I-Frame but some Long GOP mostly 709 and S-LOG3 depending on the job in hand. In LOG from either of these formats we can meet most deliverable requirements right up to HDR if required.

Chris Young

 

[brudney]

Another point for GH5 is it doesn't stripe faces

https://2.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS4000x6000~sample_galleries/6769434587/5655951041.jpg

 

[ita149]

A7III Pros:

- better autofocus
- better low-light
- better dynamic range
- lighter body
- larger full-frame sensor(for shallower DOF)


GH5 Pros:

- 10bit 4:2:2 codecs
- ALL-I codecs
- 4k DCI
- anamorphic modes (open gate 5k)
- anamorphic de-squeeze
- load 4 custom luts for v-log l preview
- better IBIS
- lighter lenses
- 4k 60fps
- 1080 180fps
- variable frame rates
- waveform & vectorscope
- smaller m4/3 sensor (deeper DOF for same aperture)
- full-size HDMI port
- syncro scan
- less rolling shutter
- fully articulating touchscreen

You can add this for the A7 III :

- Sharper 4k than GH5 with 6k downsampled to 4k (yes a lot of people like very detailed footage)
- S35 mode for more reach/less rolling shutter without noise (the GH5 become noisy in the EX Teleconvert mode) and Clear Image Zoom to zoom during recording.
- Better image quality in photography for hybrid shooters
- Better battery life

The GH5 is obviously the better choice if you are a pro/semi pro filmaker but even if I like my GH5, i never use some features like the ALL-I codecs (i can't really see a difference with LONG GOP), anamorphic mode (never had an anamorphic lense) and 180 fps (barely usable, very soft and a lot of aliasing).
I own the Samsung NX1 and this camera still blow me away : cleaner 4k video than GH5 at low iso, better resolution and better colours. Not to mention the better photo performance. I expect the A7 III to be the best hybrid camera like the NX1 was on 2014.

 

[Joost]

The exelent IBIS, strong codec, robust build quality, great film maker ergonomics, 40k 60p and full size HDMI makes it feel like a more profesional camera then the whole a7 serie.
I owned both but choose to keep the GH5 and sell the A7s. Also used the A7s MII allot.
I sometimes miss the full frame aspect, but not to much. I don't miss any DR since I think the Slog3 and Slog2 is unusable in the A7 serie for the weak codec.
So I actually feel the GH5 has more DR since the robust codec let's you play around with the levels better.

 

[icarusfilm]

a camera is also not all specks its a tool that is either sits well in your hand, shoulder etc and either gets in the way or is intuitive to work with. I have owned all the video based sony mirrorless cams at one point or other and while they have been useful over the years none of them has the ergonomic operation feel that the GH5 has.
Also the image out of camera is much more pleasing weather you shoot Rec709 or Log it needs very little tweaking. In fact the GH5 has made me sell my FS7 and get a EVA1.

The exelent IBIS, strong codec, robust build quality, great film maker ergonomics, 40k 60p and full size HDMI makes it feel like a more profesional camera then the whole a7 serie.
I owned both but choose to keep the GH5 and sell the A7s. Also used the A7s MII allot.
I sometimes miss the full frame aspect, but not to much. I don't miss any DR since I think the Slog3 and Slog2 is unusable in the A7 serie for the weak codec.
So I actually feel the GH5 has more DR since the robust codec let's you play around with the levels better.

 

[Joost]

In fact the GH5 has made me sell my FS7 and get a EVA1.

It is strange but I am not drawn to the eva1 while I do have the budget on hand to buy it. The 2500 iso is noisy for a dubble iso sensor.
Ergonomical it seems perfect to me exept for the plasticness. But you remind me I have to look in to that camera again and see some reviews and footage on youtube.
Maybe some reviewer can change my mind because the price is good for what it does.

 

[icarusfilm]

For a lot of jobs I need a shoulder based camera with an EVF follow focus that sits perfectly balanced
On my shoulder so I have a Zacuto shoulder mount with an evf and v- mounts I only use the camera body itself no handles no monitors so when it’s time to switch nothing really changes.

QUOTE=Joost;1986744672]It is strange but I am not drawn to the eva1 while I do have the budget on hand to buy it. The 2500 iso is noisy for a dubble iso sensor.
Ergonomical it seems perfect to me exept for the plasticness. But you remind me I have to look in to that camera again and see some reviews and footage on youtube.
Maybe some reviewer can change my mind because the price is good for what it does.[/QUOTE]

 

[filmguy123]

It is strange but I am not drawn to the eva1 while I do have the budget on hand to buy it. The 2500 iso is noisy for a dubble iso sensor.
Ergonomical it seems perfect to me exept for the plasticness. But you remind me I have to look in to that camera again and see some reviews and footage on youtube.
Maybe some reviewer can change my mind because the price is good for what it does.

GH5, GH5s, and EVA1 owner here.

The GH5s lowlight is better than the EVA1. It's really great.

The EVA1, though, is actually very clean even pushing past 2500 ISO, for most use cases. Many of the demos online focus on "no light" shooting to showcase "low light" and then shadow noise is revealed because there was no data to amplify to begin with. In actual use of say medium to low light indoor dynamics, it looks SUPER clean even at 3200 ISO+. Like, really great. The GH5s in the bag takes it next level if needed.

To me where the EVA1 shines: it looks. so. clean. On the initial demos I was concerned it looks digitized, plasticky, or fake. In practice, it just looks hyper clean and it's pretty easy to dial back from there. I wouldn't write off the EVA1 that easily. The roll off of highlights, the DR, detail, and RAW output for very clean high FPS makes the EVA1 and a pretty compelling tool.

However the fact that in many ways, it can also be practically so close to the GH5s... is spectacular...

Back to Sony VS Panasonic.

I think the A7x series is really fantastic. I'd be more drawn to it if I didn't feel like I'd have to give up some key metrics and advantages that are really important to me.

I also was much more drawn to the A7x series in fall 16 months ago. GH4 vs A7S2 was a lot tougher on the GH4.

But the last year has really changed a lot in the m43 landscape. The GH5 looks really great, but the GH5s just has a way of rendering the image now that has a "mojo" to it that I'm extremely pleased with. The lens selections have exploded in the past years, and the speedbooster has opened up a ton. GH5s vs A7III... same price, had to do it all over again from scratch... GH5s wins, for me.

With the current m43 line up, I just don't see "smaller sensor" as a talking point of the GH5/5s line up anymore. It's almost irrelevant.

I really hope the organic sensor tech makes it into the GH6. An 8K GH6 w/IBIS w/better lowlight and DR than the 5s would be INSANE. That's probably shooting too high, but the point is, the ceiling is being blown off m43 and it's a very exciting format going forward.

Now that the tech is catching up and things are beginning to level up, I wouldn't be surprised to see talk shift to the ADVANTAGES of a smaller sensor.

In a couple years, I'd expect FF to make a leap as well. But discussing a camera with 14 vs 16 stops of DR is different than a camera with 10 stops vs 12 stops. 10v12 can be a deal breaker. 14v16 is a speciality use case. Clean ISO 12k vs clean ISO 25k is also a specialty use case. Point is, when the sensors hit diminishing returns on the top end of specs, conversations usually start to shift back to other metrics and M43 may see a very large advantage here, both in ways we can easily conceive of today, and in ways which will be revealed down the road.

Bottom line: main problem with the Sony A7x series is often feeling like I'd be working AGAINST the camera solving all sorts of issues (codecs, UI, battery, overheating, record limits, so small its borderline awkward, etc.). GH5/5s I feel like I'm working WITH the camera - this is really just a ready to shoot solution with so many decisions that make losing 0.5-1 stop of lowlight or .05-1 stop of DR (both of which are debatable in practice comparing to the 5s!) seem trivial.

 

[icarusfilm]

What really makes the GH5 specifically useful to me are two lenses that after trying different things are now keepers:
Olympus pro 17mm f1.2 and the 45mm f1.2 combined with Ibis and the full manual focus on the lenses make it a everyday tool on every production. I keep a 35mm 1.4 Glied to the eva1 and have a wide and portrait equivalent of 35mm f2.4 and a 90mm 2.4 in FF terms but with 1.2 light gathering. All together a very good package.

 

[Atobit]

Bottom line: main problem with the Sony A7x series is often feeling like I'd be working AGAINST the camera solving all sorts of issues (codecs, UI, battery, overheating, record limits, so small its borderline awkward, etc.). GH5/5s I feel like I'm working WITH the camera - this is really just a ready to shoot solution with so many decisions that make losing 0.5-1 stop of lowlight or .05-1 stop of DR (both of which are debatable in practice comparing to the 5s!) seem trivial.

I share the same feeling.
I had the A7x and A7Sx cameras, then I got the FS5 2 years agoo, since never touched the A7 cameras again, except for underwater shoot.
Finally got the GH5 a year ago, such a joy to use it and the image quality is excellent. Now I'm using both FS5 and GH5 depend of the project and situation.
The GH5 give me the feeling I work with a video camera not like the A7x series.

As it was already mentionned, today M43 sensors can deliver beautiful images. To me, sensor size war doesn't make sense anymore.

 

[IronFilm]

Specs never tell the full story and user experience to me matters more than any specs out there. The GH5 could be a HD only camera and I would likely still use it over Sony because of how well Panasonic designed their cameras from the very start with video cameras in mind. No other DSLR company even comes close to replicating the user experience of a traditional video camera. Plus I can't stand the look of Sony cameras so they can throw all the specs in the world at it and unless they ditch that Sony look it just isn't going to happen.

I'm not saying Sony cameras can't produce nice results but I just don't want to use the camera no matter how many cool specs they have. Sony could pay me and I still wouldn't want to force myself to use their cameras.

I will gladly point out the faults of m43 and Panasonic and don't hold back but to this day I still find their cameras to provide an overall better user experience and level fo comfort. When you have to shoot a lot that stuff matters.

Exactly. Right from the earliest days with the Panasonic GH1, then Panasonic has offered a better and more polished implementation than Sony/Canon/Nikon/whoever have done.

Panasonic doesn't just win on specs!