F3: Any real benefit to 444 output?

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Doctor Wu

Well-known member
BHphotovideo and other retailers are selling the F3 Toolkit including the Gemini 444 recorder which as a bundle is a good deal considering past prices (real market forces though still favor the C100 and C300 and Scarlet at this price range). There's real benefits in post for VFX, noise reduction and many other applications to having uncompressed dpx files rather than having to extract them from Prores and DNXHD. It's actually how the major post houses here in LA prefer their file sequences.

Question: is there any real benefit to 444 output from an F3 since the chip is only 2400x pixels before debayer? The Debayer algorithm would at best only be able to extract the equivalent of 422 color information at HD resolutions? Am I off base here on my assumptions? The chip isn't striped or over over-sampled like the C100/C300 chip.
 
Its just my opinion. Of course someone else will have a good argument why 444 is better than 422. :)

By the way I do agree there is large favour to C100/C300, RED, and the deals being offered on the F3 are hard to resist but most DP's I know pass up on the F3 and decide on Canon, BMC or RED. I'm not a fan of BMC crop, but their regular sized sensor should be out in January (hopefully).
 
Yes, most producers here in LA haven't even heard of the Sony F3, after two years out (just two years!) now it's fallen out of favor which shows in the used prices. Even the C100 is just more practical for a lot of ergonomic and lens choice reasons. The PL mount can hurt or help depending on the production, and having to buy an Optitek EF adapter adds a lot to the cost. I loved RED's Canon mount when I owned an Epic - breech lock. Very nice engineering on Red's part. Buying an F3 new seems like financial suicide if you want to re-sell, but people still do buy them new if you look at BHphoto's list of "hot cameras", the toolkit is up there in the top 20 not too far behind the F5.
 
I owned the F3 then last October bought a RED camera, but shortly afterwards Sony made announcements about an upcoming new "F" camera so I sold the RED and shortly afterwards the F3 as well. I talked myself into the F55 over the F5 as had I bought an F5 I would have had buyers remorse for eternity. So I sold a few extra limbs and ended up with the F55 which I like, but am still evaluating. Something still pulls me back to the RED.
 
If you are in the market for a new camera and are looking for an affordable camera that can issue real 444 output, I would wait it out till NAB and see what surfaces. If you want 444 output now buy an F35 on the used market but that comes with a set of its own concerns which you can read about in the archives.

It seems to me one of the next mountains to conquer in the less expensive large chipped cameras is real 444 output.
 
I will probably end up waiting for NAB unless a newish F3 with the RGB update presents itself on the used market for around 5K (not likely right now, even at today's prices). I sold my Epic at almost 30% off to a friend, which ended up being an OK sacrifice because the package is more readily at my disposal since he's a friend.

The problem I had with buying serious expensive camera packages is that I felt like I was become more of a baby sitter of expensive gear, than a DP and artist. I know that sounds hokey, artists are a dime a dozen, but it took away from my focus on making movies, and more focus on maintaining and upgrading a package to Dragon and beyond. For the future, I'm only looking at packages under $10K so that I'm not under extreme pressure to rent out. I'm just not interested in being a businessman right now. If I was, I would be driving around in a Korean BBQ fast food truck, which is far more profitable than renting cameras :).
 
I will be soon selling my F3, 659 hours but I just had Teaneck replace my optical block this past summer and do a full cleaning on the optical path. I will also be selling the S-Log option along with the F3, the F3 puts out a real nice image, it is a shame that they are going for such a low price on eBay. Hopefully I will not have buyers remorse when my F5 arrives next week :) .
 
Does the F5 not record HDcamSR 444? Unless that's above the price range you guys are discussing. Also curious why everyone feels you need to use Canon lenses with a very expensive adapter on a F3,5,55. Manual focus Nikon Ais lenses are much cheaper, better feel for focusing, have hard infinity stops, have aperture rings and the Optitek ProLock is only a grand. If you have modern Nikon G lenses the Prolock can control the lenses iris.

Like Andrew said, if you can wait till NAB, who knows what might get announced.
 
Fotojorno said:
Does the F5 not record HDcamSR 444?
Click to expand...

Yes F5 records SR codec 422 and 444. (10-bit internal to sxs)


scocklin said:
I will be soon selling my F3, 659 hours but I just had Teaneck replace my optical block this past summer and do a full cleaning on the optical path. I will also be selling the S-Log option along with the F3, the F3 puts out a real nice image, it is a shame that they are going for such a low price on eBay. Hopefully I will not have buyers remorse when my F5 arrives next week :) .
Click to expand...

Not sure if its too late or not but check out the Sony XQD cards which Sony added support for since the October firmware update. You can get 64GB in either 168MB/s or 180MB/s for $289 to $319 respectively. For the F5 the 168MB/s is fine, then just add a SXS adapter for $33 and your done.... only $528 cheaper than a 64GB SXS Pro Plus card.
 
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My set of CP2's are Canon EF mount, that's the big reason for me. Also because Nikon lenses focus backwards - hiring an experienced AC for dramatic focus pulling means getting someone who is used to focusing the "right" way. A reversing gear which is often thrown up as an option really isn't a good option - it only introduces another point of play and backlash. I have a set of Nikon AIS prime lenses though - just love them. 24/28/85/105/135/180 all so lovely sharp and contrasty. With adapters they're a great way to supplement my CP2's - and a lot lighter too, though we usually focus on the barrel when we use them. Getting a set of PL mount primes could never cover the range of Canon and Nikon lenses I have now - from 11mm (Tokina 11-16mm) all the way to the Nikon 180mm with adapter. Would cost a huge fortune getting the PL mount equivalents in zoom or primes so I appreciate the compromise, the the PL mount is stronger and more durable.

Fotojorno said:
Also curious why everyone feels you need to use Canon lenses with a very expensive adapter on a F3,5,55. Manual focus Nikon Ais lenses are much cheaper, better feel for focusing, have hard infinity stops, have aperture rings and the Optitek ProLock is only a grand. If you have modern Nikon G lenses the Prolock can control the lenses iris.

Like Andrew said, if you can wait till NAB, who knows what might get announced.
Click to expand...
 
Doctor Wu said:
Yes, most producers here in LA haven't even heard of the Sony F3, after two years out (just two years!) now it's fallen out of favor which shows in the used prices. Even the C100 is just more practical for a lot of ergonomic and lens choice reasons. The PL mount can hurt or help depending on the production, and having to buy an Optitek EF adapter adds a lot to the cost. I loved RED's Canon mount when I owned an Epic - breech lock. Very nice engineering on Red's part. Buying an F3 new seems like financial suicide if you want to re-sell, but people still do buy them new if you look at BHphoto's list of "hot cameras", the toolkit is up there in the top 20 not too far behind the F5.
Click to expand...

The F3 is a GREAT camera for skin tones with SLOG. Far better than the Red in my opinion.
The only reason I would go for 444 is for green screen. Otherwise 422HQ is more than enough.

In terms of the EF mount thing, Jacek refuses to sell the mount without all the expensive electronics.
I am not going to pay $1900 just to have a decent mount for my EF CP2 lenses. Crazy.
I asked but he doesn't even bother to respond to that possibility and I am tired of asking.
Apparently, I am old fashioned because I don't want to embrace using Canon L lenses on my shoots.
Too bad that we have to be forced to buy a bunch of stuff we don't need (elecronics) just to have a decent EF mounting system.
However, Jacek is about to get some serious competition for a third of the price as a result.
In the meantime, I use either a rod mount or a mattebox to lock them down.
This will be interesting for all EF owners.
 
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I use an experienced AC on select projects and he never has any issues focusing backwards on my Nikons, I also don't find it too difficult myself to switch between Nikons and Canon focus directions when I have to.. (but of course I'm always worried I will focus the wrong way..)
 
starcentral said:
Yes F5 records SR codec 422 and 444. (10-bit internal to sxs)




Not sure if its too late or not but check out the Sony XQD cards which Sony added support for since the October firmware update. You can get 64GB in either 168MB/s or 180MB/s for $289 to $319 respectively. For the F5 the 168MB/s is fine, then just add a SXS adapter for $33 and your done.... only $528 cheaper than a 64GB SXS Pro Plus card.
Click to expand...

Yes I've read the thread on the F5/55 Sony form and ordered the XQD cards. However after talking to a Sony tech rep, he wasn't sure if there was a recoverable memory in the XQD cards like there is in the Pro+ cards. I believe there is something like a mirrored RAID on the Pro+ cards but he wasn't sure if the XQD cards offered the same back-up.
 
I'm sure the difference in price exists for a reason, so that makes perfect sense and is probably true.. would be good to know more about this.
 
starcentral said:
Yes F5 records SR codec 422 and 444. (10-bit internal to sxs)




Not sure if its too late or not but check out the Sony XQD cards which Sony added support for since the October firmware update. You can get 64GB in either 168MB/s or 180MB/s for $289 to $319 respectively. For the F5 the 168MB/s is fine, then just add a SXS adapter for $33 and your done.... only $528 cheaper than a 64GB SXS Pro Plus card.
Click to expand...

Dennis, I was trying to be sarcastic when "asking" about HDcamSR 444 in the F5. I failed.. ;-)

Wu, didnt know yours were CP.2's in EF, thought you were talking about Canon lenses.
 
Doctor Wu said:
BHphotovideo and other retailers are selling the F3 Toolkit including the Gemini 444 recorder which as a bundle is a good deal considering past prices (real market forces though still favor the C100 and C300 and Scarlet at this price range). There's real benefits in post for VFX, noise reduction and many other applications to having uncompressed dpx files rather than having to extract them from Prores and DNXHD. It's actually how the major post houses here in LA prefer their file sequences.

Question: is there any real benefit to 444 output from an F3 since the chip is only 2400x pixels before debayer? The Debayer algorithm would at best only be able to extract the equivalent of 422 color information at HD resolutions? Am I off base here on my assumptions? The chip isn't striped or over over-sampled like the C100/C300 chip.
Click to expand...

Wu,

I recently shot two features, 1 recording to HQ, 1 to 444. I can't say that there's any obvious visual differences, but I'd like to think that the 444 graded much better in terms of subtle skin tone color.

"Dempsey Sisters" (proresHQ)
UP Original Movie: The Dempsey Sisters - YouTube
"Marry Me For Christmas" (prores444)
UP Original Movie: Marry Me For Christmas - YouTube

I'm currently debating on whether to purchase a pix240 or a samurai blade.
 
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