Another "which camera should I buy"

When it comes to opinions, I believe in "the more the merrier". All the advice you've gotten so far has been quite good, but with all due respect... pretty predictable.

So, it's time for something completely from left field. And I'm willing to play the role of the fool here :) . And so, my advice is going to be quite different from most you got so far.

I think you should consider two possibilities.

1) Get no camera at all.

Look at this whole thing from a higher altitude. What do you want to accomplish, and what is the best way to do it? Without getting into a book length philosophical discussion, let's just say you want to (a) learn to become a filmmaker OR (b) make a film... most often both.

I found that when probed, many folks actually reclassify (b) to (a) - i.e. they want to make a film as a way of learning to become a filmmaker. Either way, think about it.

Do you want to be a director? It's good to have a basic knowledge of all aspects of filmmaking. Sure. But let's get real here - there's a sweet spot. You can take it too far into diminishing returns: for example, while it may be useful to have a basic understanding of cinematography, it's not necessary to be Nobel Prize winning physicist in the field of light theory, and also a brilliant engineer who can design his own camera etc. There isn't enough lifetime to learn all those crafts so thoroughly that you'll be tops in all. You must make a judgment call. Learn enough - and not more.

Moreover (and I'll catch massive flak for this) I actually think too much technical knowledge can hurt you (as Andy Warhol maintained) - this is not to promote amateurism or ignorance or downplay technical expertise, but there's a tendency for some not to see the forest for the trees... actually something changes in your brain, as if it's made of clay, and once you stamp it with something too strongly (say, cinematography), it won't leave enough room for anything else. Have you ever noticed how many DP's try to become directors, and how tiny a percentage ever get to be any good as a director? These are the practical consequences of what I pointed out (and yes, there are exceptions, but exceedingly rare, like Nicolas Roeg etc.). You see this on a smaller scale, even here, where there'll be technical wankery aplenty, but when one of these (actually very competent) technical gurus submits a film sample as director (i.e. not as DP work), all of a sudden you realize that however brilliant they are as a DP they suck as director. Again, I'm not saying you should ignore it all - but there are many ways to be a director. There's only one way to be a DP. A director can be great with story, but suck with camera placement - and the audience will forgive him, because story is 95% of the impact of film on audiences (and no, I'm not talking about the 3% of film nerds in film school). A director may have a great way with actors, but be so-so as far as his eye for cinematography goes (think Robert Altman). He may be very good with special effects, but suck in every other way (Michael Bay - OK, I'm kidding a bit). So, you may have almost zero technical skills, but be good with actors and story, and you'll be a great director. But a DP has to be good as DP, and what that means is much, much more limited - end of story.

Furthermore, some things cross better into a directing than others. Counterintuitively, I'll claim cinematography is one of the worst - watch them draw and quarter me here :) But I'm serious. That skillset just doesn't translate to directing (again, yes there are exceptions) - how can it be, since film is a visual medium? I don't know why, it just is - again, the proof is in the pudding - there really are few DPs who cross to becoming good directors (every DP seemingly gets 1 or 2 shots at it). Maybe we overvalue the "visual" impact on an audience compared to story and acting elements? Writers cross a lot better (screenplay writers). Editors cross a lot better. DP's? Not so much.

OK, my point is: don't get a camera. Get a brilliant/good/competent/decent/tolerable/ DP who brings his own camera. (I)He'll be better at DP'ing than you'll ever be, and a better camera operator. (II)He'll know his camera a lot better than your half a$$ed study of a few dozen hours of your camera. (III)It'll free you to concentrate on other tasks - a director has a lot to do, why take on another duty. Leave the technical wankery to the technical guys - they're better at it, and you'll never match them... unless you want to be the cam operator or DP as a career, then go knock yourself out. (IV)Finally, there's always money needed on a shoot. It's cheaper not to buy a camera if the DP has one he's more comfortable with anyway. Problem solved.

What you must do as a director is have a vision - know what you want, pick a DP and then trust him (and supervise - that's the job of a director), and guide him to get you what you want.

You'll get a lot more out of studying writing and editing - which you can do without a camera. Write. Edit. Hire/cajole the technical people - the DP's, the sound people, the rest.

Brutal truth: if you write something good enough (or obtain the rights to, or get ahold of a script), MONEY WILL COME TO YOU with just a bit of work, and then, you won't have to worry about which camera to get, and how you'll pay for it. If you have that kind of backing and legitimacy, you'll get a real DP involved and the camera will be his problem - as long as you know what you want from him in broad strokes.

And if your writing is not strong enough (or you property not strong enough) to get financing, and you're forced to do it on your own? Well, read that again. Honey, if your project sucks, maybe you should work hard enough to unsuck it, maybe it's not ready for prime time - in which case you should not shoot it, and again, the question of "which camera do I get" is irrelevant.

Now, OK, since not every project can be brilliant and get financing - maybe you feel there's value in just shooting a film to learn the art. In that case, my friend, I submit, option two.

2)Get the cheapest camera around - maybe the Canon HV20.

Ask yourself - if your film is strictly for learning, does it matter that it's "wow 16:9", "wow 24p", "wow filmlike"?

I submit it's a lot of rubbish. What you'll get from a shoot is how to handle actors, how to tell a story, how to edit, how to run a production - almost none of this involves "which exact camera do I get".

And if you insist that there's something for a director to learn from a camera - OK, for example, shot blocking - friend, you can do it with a $5 camera.

Bottom line, think more about the important things, look at it from a higher altitude, and you'll either get no camera or a total cheapie.

Sorry for the length. All IMHO.
 
ecking said:
Umm that is some insane logic. HD is a pixel size for a picture, not a compression format. It doesn't matter whether it is captured on p2 card, mini dv tape, or a piece of cardboard. If the end result is a picture equal or greater than 1280x720 pixels, it is HD.

If hdv is really that bad you would not see such a great many people on this board interested, espcially in something as lowly as the hv20, let alone the XH-A1.

Well, from all of the DP's I've talked to (I'm not one, just camera shopping) - they've all said HDV is like a gimmick. They throw "HD" in the title and everybody gets excited. Obviously the A1 is a good camera... not only the CCD's, but the lens etc. is all an upgrade from the XL2 - and incredibly priced. But hey, you gotta admit that HDV is not HD. And OldCorpse... great post. It's gonna scare a lot of people I think.
 
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Wow, talk about latteral thinking. What a refreshing post OldCorpse.
In fact you've inspired me to prove a point by digging up my old Sony handycam and do a short with it this weekend. :)
 
MemphisMourns said:
If you need 500 gigs of storage for the HDV, what are you looking at for the HVX? I figure storage equals out... And from what I always could tell, and XHA1 was just a weird camera. HDV is NOT HD. It's compressed. And since it's not the G1, there's no way to get the HD out, it's trapped into a Mini DV which cannot hold HD, right?

And sure P2 cards and Store are a little pricey, but you're looking at about 2 grand more for an HVX system then running the A1... and is it safe to say that the HVX does all that the A1 and 100b do and more? You don't gotta go HD once you get it. Buy the cam, and save some dough shooting SD, before you can afford the P2's and then go HD maybe?

By the way, don't buy the 4299 HVX from Amazon. It's not from an Auth. Dealer.

New guy here.

The major advantage with HDV is that you can store HD footage on a regular miniDV tape, so its cheap and accesible to many people, where p2 cards are a major expense right now.
 
MemphisMourns said:
If you need 500 gigs of storage for the HDV, what are you looking at for the HVX? I figure storage equals out... And from what I always could tell, and XHA1 was just a weird camera.

Hmmm. Where to begin, other than you don't necessarily need half a terrabyte of storage, although it's always nice to have extra storage. Really depends on what you're working on, and whethere you really need to bring all of it into your system in the first place. As for the XHA1 being a "weird" camera, is it a form factor issue for you? Actually when you think about it, nearly ALL cameras are little weird - and at the very least, most of us behind them are.

MemphisMourns said:
HDV is NOT HD. It's compressed.

I'm not sure WHERE people keep coming up with this conclusion, but this needs to be put to bed, once and for ALL TIME. I'm sorry but you have simply been misinformed on this topic, unfortunately by people who should know better. The statement you have made that "HDV is NOT HD", is akin to saying "DV is NOT SD", comparing apples and orangutans, or more specifically comparing aquisition/storage methods with delivery methods. Let's clear this up. There are only TWO (let's not count the Viper and Red for this discussion - that will just cloud things) possible types of resolutions - SD & HD. An image is recorded, and played back, as one, or the other. What may be confusing some people on this topic is that there are multiple resolutions WITHIN HD, 720P, 1080i, and 1080P being the most known and common. Even HD-CAM SR is compressed (3:1:1), so that therefore has nothing to with what resolution something is - an easy way to look at resolution is like "dimensions"....

a) SD is 640x480 (although DV is 720x480).
b) 720P HD is 1280x720 (although there are many ways of getting there).
c) 1080i HD is 1920x1080 (although there are many ways of getting there).
d) 1080P HD is 1920x1080(although there are many ways of getting there)

An image you shoot, and play back, will pretty much fall into one of those categories.

Those dimensions are what differentiates if something is SD or HD. That's all, not compression - not anything else.

MemphisMourns said:
And since it's not the G1, there's no way to get the HD out, it's trapped into a Mini DV which cannot hold HD, right?

Wrong. I won't go into how you capture from an HDV camera, so do what many of us do, and download the owner's manual of say the XL-H1. It's a good thing to do in general on cameras you don't know, just in case you have to work on a set asking for a camera that you haven't worked with before. In addition, since 5.1.2, Final Cut Pro has been able to take 24F 1080 HDV directly in, without any conversion. FCP is now on 5.1.4. There's a downloadable PDF that I referenced earlier in this thread, which addresses the fact that Final Cut Pro has a bunch of easy presets for bringing HDV material in.

MemphisMourns said:
New guy here.

We were all new once. That said, when you're new, the LAST thing you might want to do is spout misinformation as if it were the undeniable truth. It makes people's heads hurt. Then again, maybe that's just the wine from last night.:beer:
 
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Movies on Blu-Ray discs are encoded with the same MPEG-2 compression that regular DVD movies are--does that make them not HD as well? Or HD-DVD's that use MPEG-4?

Let's face it, these days compression is a fact of life (well, OK, unless you get an Andromeda DVX or Hydra HVX :), but even then, your final product will probably involve some sort of compression); and as resolutions go higher, there will only be more of it, I'm guessing.
 
Captain Pierce said:
Movies on Blu-Ray discs are encoded with the same MPEG-2 compression that regular DVD movies are--does that make them not HD as well? Or HD-DVD's that use MPEG-4?

Let's face it, these days compression is a fact of life (well, OK, unless you get an Andromeda DVX or Hydra HVX :), but even then, your final product will probably involve some sort of compression); and as resolutions go higher, there will only be more of it, I'm guessing.

Unless they've done so already, I'm thinking Barry or Jarred needs to write an article clarifying the biggest misnomers about HD out there. Every time I see one these misguided, but firmly formed, opinions (ie HDV is NOT HD - it has compression) it just makes me want to throw something.
 
I've tried to explain that one a dozen times. It's like saying "DV is not SD because it's compressed." Er, yeah. Duh.

Every form of recording digital video in common use is compressed. Even analog video is compressed in some ways; interlacing is a form of analog compression, as is sampling the chroma at a lower bandwidth. Those are both ways of compressing the signal.

HD is determined by what Duct Tape said: frame size, and frame rate. 1920x1080 @ 24p/25p/30p/50i/60i. 1440x1080@24p/25p/30p/50i/60i. 1280x720 @ any frame rate up to 60. Those are HD. How you compress it does not define whether it's "HD" or not. SMPTE and the ATSC and the EBU decide what "HD" is, not an arbitrary discussion of whether something is compressed or not. If compression means something isn't HD, then that rules out D-VHS, DVCPRO-HD, HDCAM, HD D5, AVC-HD, AVC-Intra, HDCAM SR, and basically every other form of HD recording that's ever been devised.

There are many various ways to record HD. HDV happens to be the lowest-quality, most-compressed way (in common use) to store an HD signal; it also happens to be largely identical to how HDTV gets broadcast in the US. Professional HD formats use less compression, more bandwidth, and usually frame-discrete compression, but that doesn't mean that they're "true HD" and HDV isn't "true HD". It's just a different way to record an HD signal.
 
Thanks guys, I guess I was way off here. Like I said, I was quoting DP's and AC's from set - and am not at all a camera guy. I've apparently got some reading to do. Resolution/Compression (how it's stored), that all makes a lot of sense. I am eternally impressed by what those little tapes can actually do.

Eating crow, buying books and going back to my writing career now.
 
MemphisMourns said:
Thanks guys, I guess I was way off here. Like I said, I was quoting DP's and AC's from set - and am not at all a camera guy. I've apparently got some reading to do. Resolution/Compression (how it's stored), that all makes a lot of sense. I am eternally impressed by what those little tapes can actually do.

Eating crow, buying books and going back to my writing career now.

I prefer deep fried crow myself - actually did you know they actually eat pigeons in some parts of the world - FREAKING SKYRATS?!? This is a profession that requires so much constant changes in the tools, that usually books can't be published in time for their information (especially about gear) to be up to date. My suggestion, don't get books that are gear based - get ones that are broad stroke filmmaking process books - from pre-production to distribution. Either that, or get something from Barry here - the guy is a storehouse, I would be shocked if there were many other people who carry around as much info about gear and the process as Barry.

But I digress, as far as books go, some of the best ones are kind of out of date, actually as I was saying, by the time a filmmaking book hits the shelves anymore - nonetheless, there are some permanent gems to be had - "Feature Filmmaking At Used Car Prices" is one of those, and it does get updated regularly enough to make it a good starting point at least conceptually in the steps. I've had mulitple copies over the years, which I always give to new filmmakers. There's another book, and I can't remember the name right now - which pretty much has great small crew ideas, limiting all roles on a film to three people, someone help me out here, that was a good one, too. Then there's the ASC film manual - kind of dry, but you can put some butter on it. To keep on top of gear - download owner's manuals online, read magazines, visit here and other places online, rent gear you've got to get your hands on, but can't buy. That's really the best way to keep abreast of important gear (don't do it with EVERYTHING or you surely will drive yourself crazy).

Don't go away so soon, back to writing, that is. There are many fine filmmakers that can't write for crap, myself included (is it bragging to call myself a fine filmmaker - I guess I'm probably fine - I'm comfortable with that much boasting). My dialogue always was stilted, and despite my best efforts writing five feature screenplays, it was NOT my forte'. That's when I found docs, or rather, they found me. It was a nice fit, and that's where I've stayed, and plan on staying for the foreseeable future. I'm less of a "visionary", I guess, and more of a "cultural anthropologist", at least that's what I very well might have done had I not chosen this route. Somebody'll need your writing talents surely....if you're not a screenwriter already, just learn the format - and see if what you've done previously doesn't apply.
 
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Thanks Duct Tape, may I ask one more question of the forum? Is it silly for one to purchase the HVX200 and use it as DV (for it's superior chips and lens) until one can afford to run the HD properly (Comp P2 Storage)? Wouldn't this, even as DV, look a little more Pana 24p "film like" then the A1?
 
That's actually something I've considered suggesting for my company if it turns out that we do need to replace one of our DVX's here, but I think the price may not appeal to my boss. :) But yeah, if you've got the money now and see the need for HD in your future, then either the HVX or the A1 in SD mode (assuming that the A1 has one, I don't know much about it) should give you a good SD picture now.

As for which is more "film like," I think that's something you're going to have to decide for yourself. The A1 forum is starting to see more and more footage in it--you might want to check some out and see what you think...
 
MemphisMourns said:
Thanks Duct Tape, may I ask one more question of the forum? Is it silly for one to purchase the HVX200 and use it as DV (for it's superior chips and lens) until one can afford to run the HD properly (Comp P2 Storage)? Wouldn't this, even as DV, look a little more Pana 24p "film like" then the A1?

I'm going to take the two questions seperately, because they require individual answers. Yes, it would be perferctly rational, and almost logical, to buy the HXV and use it as a DV camera until you came up with the money for P2 cards, etc., that is if you really don't want to get into HD right now, and can resist the incredible temptation to put yourself in debt a few days later. Yes, if it is THAT camera you've got to have, you know you will certainly move on up to HD, that is a perfectly viable way to do it. Unless you don't have the will power to follow your plans and intentions, in which case, just pony up already, or get something else if you can't afford it, like say the A1.

The answer to the second part as far as looking more "film like" is an emphatic no. Once on a 24P timeline, and eventually delivered as such, heck even WHILE shooting, there is no forgoing the "film look" - see any number of the 24F versus 24P arguments - you'll see that the voices with most weight come down on the side that "this is the truth, Ruth" - for most purposes, between 24P/24F it just doesn't matter - they both move like film. There is an AWFUL lot of disinformation out there about these Canon cameras, most of the bias people are having against HDV being based on previous JVC & Sony models. Canon pushed HDV as far as it could possibly go, and then some, and all things being equal - as far as HDV goes, the A1/G1/H1 are without peer.

If you want to know the the truth about the A1, even though some have accused him wrongly of bias (I'd think personal perspective is far more accurate - but WHO among us can rightfully say they don't have that?) read Barry's shoot out between the HVX and the A1. Some of those who come to the defense of the A1 in the thread also provide some useful links - more or less better images from the A1. In the article, Barry comes to the conclusion, which was to be expected, in a shoot out, the HVX's beats (was edges out the phrase?) the A1. No worry, it still provides excellent facts about the camera.

Basically, in my mind, it comes down to this between the HVX and A1 - what kind of filmmaker are you? Do you make narratives? If so, the HVX is probably your best choice, unless you can't afford it, in which the A1 ain't exactly a slouch either. If not, and say you're a documentarian, you probably will be better suited with the A1, unless you have enough money to justify the long form storage you'll need for shooting with an HVX, and have a good idea how to best make the workflow invisible to your style of shooting. For some documentarians, myself included, I just can't give up that long form, almost disposable, but immediately archivable format, love the idea of having two identical copies (with a Firestore) immediately, and really can't justify the duckets it would take to do the same thing on the HVX. Which tool do YOU personally need? Me personally, that's about the only thing that could have been added to Barry's article about the two, yet it still kinda goes without saying - the A1 suits me better, simply because the pros/cons aimed that way - but that's just for me.
 
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It's terms like "More Film Like" that immediately point me out as a novice, without having to glance up at my name. I'm just a huge Super 16 fan is why I am asking, and hoping to shoot a very warm seventies feeling short. I'll read the A1 HVX shootout, that should really help a lot. Thanks again, Duct Tape. Thread Hijack over.
 
Barry, kudos! You truly are a wise archive. I am happy that these tired eyes have located as many of your words as they have...
 
Oldcorpse:

Good post and definitely something to think about. I'm relieved that maybe I don't have to know it all (even though I want to). I was thinking if I wasn't ace at writing, directing, cinematography, lighting, sound, and editing that I suck. I would still like to concentrate on directing, cinematography, lighting, and editing. Writing is my weak point (although I've never tried) but I do have some cool ideas if I could find someone to flesh out the stories and write the scripts. Not getting a camera right now is not an option for me, I'm 35 and I don't have time to waste. Even if it's just filming alligators in the Everglades where I live, I need to do something. Everything I know I've learned in the past 10 days from reading books, forums, articles, etc (which is probably why I sound like an idiot everytime I post). I've read the manuals for the HVX, DVX, and Canon XHA1 cover to cover twice (still baffled by some of the terms) Up until 4 days ago I didn't even know what an "NLE" was :) I want to do narratives as well as documentaries and I need a camera that can do both. I think a documentary would be the best bet for me to get started as it requires a minimum of equipment and crew to get started.

Duct Tape: (gotta say it feels weird addressing someone this way ;))

As far the HDV and HD argument goes, check out the following link for a clip of the Canon XHA1 from Steven Dempsey. I defy anyone to tell me that HDV isn't true HD after watching this:

P.S. I don't live IN the everglades just NEAR-not like like I live in a thatched hut
feeding alligators out of my front door or anything (like my sister does)

"This morning, there was about a half hour of sun so I dropped by my favorite park (Marymoor in Redmond, WA) on the way to work.

What you see here is just raw footage right out of the camera. There is no color correction at all. The only thing I did with the footage was apply a 2.35:1 matte.

Rendered at 10mbps, it's about 93mb. There is definitely a drop in the sharpness due to this high compression and a little noise is there that's not at all obvious in the original footage.

All of these shots are at the wide end of the lens because I really wanted to shoot to show off the pixels.

I'm using my PANALOOK preset which is still my favorite. Thanks to Chris Hurd for the conversion from XLH1 to XHA1, he did a nice job."

Anyway, enjoy:

http://www.pinelakefilms.com/XHA1/marymoorHD.wmv

Right click and "save as"
 
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First off, this is an amazing thread. So many of my questions have been answered here as I've been also looking at these different cameras and trying to decide on if I want to buy one.

I might also start by saying that I'm really glad to see everyone posting advice about making a good film vs "omg filmlook." I thoroughly believe that writing, story, acting, lighting, and real effort are what it takes to crank out a good film, reguardless of whether it's shot on a high dollar prosumer camera, or my TRV280 digital 8. I'm a noob to filmmaking, but I really want to give it my best shot.

So. I have this TRV280 digital 8, which I want to shoot a couple of projects with to learn from and cut my teeth on. I'm a graphic artist as a living, so I know my way around all the Adobe products, as well as some 3d packages, and some NLE's. I'm technically competent to edit I think. Where I might be not competent to edit is in the things I mentioned above, the writing, lighting, and overall meat and potatoes of filmmaking. So I want to do a few experiments.

I want to decide whether I have what it takes to write and direct a good film. I'm going to start small. I have a kind of documentary/tutorial style video idea, in which I will detail the construction of an art project I did, and show the viewer how they can use the same tools and materials to achieve similar results. This is my funding project. I hope to be able to put enough value on a DVD that people will pay me 15$ at events for an extras packed DVD related to the hobby. (the hobby is computer case modding, I might add, something I feel I'm pretty good at) And with distro like RocketIndie, that might be easy to do once I have something put together ;)

Then I want to do a few 10 or 20 minute shorts, and try to see what I can do at film festivals. Maybe I'll need something better than a TRV280, but the way I see it, if I can create a 10 minute film for next to no budget and get a decent response, I can justify spending more money to make better stuff to get a better response.


So my dilemma is, at what point do I need to look at getting an HVX / XHA1? I'd really like to shoot in HD, so I can get used to working with it. Since my target format for my documentary/howto is DVD, I'm sure the TRV280 will be fine. For film festivals, it might be ok? Will I get laughed out of the building for shooting on a TRV280? (Probably not if my filmmaking is really solid?)

Ultimately I want to do a feature indy film. When I get that far, I want to shoot HD. Granted distribution will probably be on DVD, so I will need to downsize it, but the quality will definately be there, and I'll have a HD master should I ever decide to go to film (invest that 40k) with it. I'm looking at doing that in a year or two, so I probably shouldn't be even asking the camera question now. By then things will probably come way down in price or I can rent something.

Sorry for ranting and getting a little off topic, but I'm inspired :)
 
ZephyrStar said:
First off, this is an amazing thread. So many of my questions have been answered here as I've been also looking at these different cameras and trying to decide on if I want to buy one.

I might also start by saying that I'm really glad to see everyone posting advice about making a good film vs "omg filmlook." I thoroughly believe that writing, story, acting, lighting, and real effort are what it takes to crank out a good film, reguardless of whether it's shot on a high dollar prosumer camera, or my TRV280 digital 8. I'm a noob to filmmaking, but I really want to give it my best shot.

For a self proclaimed noob, that's certainly some wisdom, and a great attitude.

ZephyrStar said:
So. I have this TRV280 digital 8, which I want to shoot a couple of projects with to learn from and cut my teeth on. I'm a graphic artist as a living, so I know my way around all the Adobe products, as well as some 3d packages, and some NLE's. I'm technically competent to edit I think. Where I might be not competent to edit is in the things I mentioned above, the writing, lighting, and overall meat and potatoes of filmmaking. So I want to do a few experiments.

In my opinion, there is no better way to grow your filmmaking style than experiments. Don't be afraid to do something "wrong" - as it very well might lead to something you like. That is important, to learn what you like - and make it repeatable. Hands-on wins hands down over book learning - although learning all you can (from good sources particularly) should be a very high priority as well.

ZephyrStar said:
I want to decide whether I have what it takes to write and direct a good film. I'm going to start small. I have a kind of documentary/tutorial style video idea, in which I will detail the construction of an art project I did, and show the viewer how they can use the same tools and materials to achieve similar results. This is my funding project. I hope to be able to put enough value on a DVD that people will pay me 15$ at events for an extras packed DVD related to the hobby. (the hobby is computer case modding, I might add, something I feel I'm pretty good at) And with distro like RocketIndie, that might be easy to do once I have something put together ;)

Go for it - writing and directing a good film is only the half of it, if even that - the fact that before you're make anything you're thinking about how to sell it - well, that's the other half at the very least.

ZephyrStar said:
Then I want to do a few 10 or 20 minute shorts, and try to see what I can do at film festivals. Maybe I'll need something better than a TRV280, but the way I see it, if I can create a 10 minute film for next to no budget and get a decent response, I can justify spending more money to make better stuff to get a better response.

If it's the TRV280 you're going to use, it may be a good idea to simply not try to mask that fact. Let the digital 8 be a digital 8 - incorporating that into how you tell the story, and not trying to pretend it's a Red One. It's been done to death sure, but what the hell hasn't? Come up with your own spin on it and see how it goes. If you're going to move on up to another camera - so be it. I'm one of those, it's not the camera, it's the person behind it guys - that said, there are some things you're not going to be as cognisant of working with a TRV280, simply because they're not readily accesable or the option doesn't exist on the camera - although you can learn proper framing and a good deal of basics with damn near anything, even your hands made into a square in front of your eyes.

ZephyrStar said:
So my dilemma is, at what point do I need to look at getting an HVX / XHA1? I'd really like to shoot in HD, so I can get used to working with it. Since my target format for my documentary/howto is DVD, I'm sure the TRV280 will be fine. For film festivals, it might be ok? Will I get laughed out of the building for shooting on a TRV280? (Probably not if my filmmaking is really solid?)

Get the HVX/XHA1 whenever you personally think it's necessary, and not because you just want one. If you simply think you've outgrown the TRV280, that you've taken it as far as it will take you - that's a good time to upgrade, that or if you need one for a gig - which is usually the circumstance I upgrade under. Truth is, in general, the source medium matters less than the quality of the audio - the example everyone gives here is Blair Witch Project. If it sounds good, people will put up with a craptacular image far longer than if it doesn't sound good.

ZephyrStar said:
Ultimately I want to do a feature indy film. When I get that far, I want to shoot HD. Granted distribution will probably be on DVD, so I will need to downsize it, but the quality will definately be there, and I'll have a HD master should I ever decide to go to film (invest that 40k) with it. I'm looking at doing that in a year or two, so I probably shouldn't be even asking the camera question now. By then things will probably come way down in price or I can rent something.

Renting is always a viable option, and depending on your needs, may be the best option. Personally, even though I have a few camera(s), if I had to choose between having a camera available at all time and having an NLE, I'd get the NLE, and the cheapest way to get my stuff into the computer, over and over and over again. That said, have you considered the Canon HV20 (especially if you're leaning towards the A1) - then you can start getting into HD, take a step up from the Sony, and have a camera to to bring your A1 footage in with so you don't wear out the heads- or heck use it to make your movies to start with?

ZephyrStar said:
Sorry for ranting and getting a little off topic, but I'm inspired :)

:beer:
 
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i think the original question that was posed about the film look should really have been answered that yes, he was going to get the film look he wanted from the hvx. I don't think he was refering to anything other than the 24p that panny is famous for. Using it in sd is a good way to learn tons. You will quickly grow to want more from yourself and the cam. As you start learning in sd you save cash for an hd workflow. Unless you want distribution and easier festival entry, you won't need hd. Also, don't expect your first attempt at anything to get you anywhere more than experienced. So i say start working on your ideas, and keep the projects very small. Learn the rule of thirds, and your' on your way. If you are not confident that the film medium is for you, buy the dvx. Otherwise not getting the hvx will make you feel handicapped.
 
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dogcat said:
i think the original question that was posed about the film look should really have been answered that yes, he was going to get the film look he wanted from the hvx. I don't think he was refering to anything other than the 24p that panny is famous for. Using it in sd is a good way to learn tons. You will quickly grow to want more from yourself and the cam. As you start learning in sd you save cash for an hd workflow. Unless you want distribution and easier festival entry, you won't need hd. Also, don't expect your first attempt at anything to get you anywhere more than experienced. So i say start working on your ideas, and keep the projects very small. Learn the rule of thirds, and your' on your way. If you are not confident that the film medium is for you, buy the dvx. Otherwise not getting the hvx will make you feel handicapped.

I don't blame you for not reading the whole thread, but the original poster, and perhaps you, are/was (as in the original poster "DirectX's" case - see his post just a few above on this page) are/were (in his case) working from under the misimpression, that somehow the XH-A1 is not capable of the "film look". If that is so for you, I suggest you read Barry Green's HXV vs. XH-A1 article for shorthand, and this thread fully - especially all of Barry's great responses. His question was specifically answered, from multiple points of view, each valid, weighing all the positives and negatives of each camera he was considering, and then some, and he did ask if the Canon XH-A1 would be suitable for what he was planning, a documentary if you'll note - and the XH-A1 is third on his list in the original question. The thread has disgressed at this point, and will probably die off, but at this point - does it really matter if it digresses slightly? Understand, it is a misnomer that only the Panasonic DVX-100 (which I've owned for years and love), and HVX-200 (which I've used a few times, and also love, but have no use for owning - I'm a doc guy) are capable of a "film look". If you don't believe me, read what I've suggested, look at some footage, and then go to your local rental house and rent one.

Short hand of some of the discussion....

In many documentarians' case, which is what the original poster plans to do with the camera for the most part it sounds like, the HVX can be highly impractical, and the XH-A1 may be FAR more suited to the task. If he was only making narratives - HVX all the way if possible. Docs: XH-A1/G1/H1 are simply more long form friendly right now, at a price point that allows the camera to be long form friendly. (Meaning, yes the HVX certainly CAN be long form friendly - but we don't want to make this guy to have to move back in with his mother). If a DVX, a used one with low head hours - it will be the cheapest way in, save him the most money that he can use on other things, and moreover, a new DVX is overpriced, and needs to come down in price if it wants to remain competitive. There were many wishes expressed along the way that Panny would offer something HD 24P in direct competition with the Canon, in between the DVX & HVX, not only in cost and features, but directed at documentarians, and other folks who cannot give up wasting tape like directors who work with improvisational narrative material. The HVX or a used DVX may be the answer for some people, for this fella, it may very well be the XH-A1 right now, as it sounds like he not only has 24P needs, but long form needs as well.
 
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