Americans on the board...

Re: Americans on the board...

You are quick to point but slow to support your statements.
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Like I said, my only interest in this conversation was to defend myself from insults, not to prove how smart I am or prove you wrong or whatever. However, if I really must give you concrete evidence of something I've said, tell me and I'll do it later when I'm not as busy and have time to double check the facts and look up some stuff.

What 'type' of society do you prefer by the way? Obviously not one that has a government but what?
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Personally, I'd prefer a more socialistic society with rules, but no rul-ERS. A society where people scratch each others backs to survive like my grandpa when he was a boy living out in the middle of knowhere in Tennesee. They lived off the land and traded tobacco for shoes and made their own clothes. In today's world people have be turned into cogs in a machine. Not making enough to survive while making others rich. That is if you can even get a job.

Somalia doesnt have a government (Warlords) is that what you want?
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Yes, I dream of a societly ruled by warlords, lol!

What conflicts should the US not be involved in?
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The one's that seem to be more about money and less about human rights. If the US is so concerned about human rights than why aren't they doing anything about the genocide in Sudan? It's not profitable or a threat to Israel or Saudi Arabia!
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=60#68 date=07/05/04 at 13:57:24]
No I didn't. I just said what I thought and you all decided to gang up on me. I know a lot of people on this board would agree with me, but I'm sure they don't want to be slammed for speaking their mind like I have.[/quote]

Like I said, in a free society, you have the right to speak your mind, but the rest of us have the right to respond.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=75#80 date=07/05/04 at 15:36:42]
Like I said, my only interest in this conversation was to defend myself from insults, not to prove how smart I am or prove you wrong or whatever. However, if I really must give you concrete evidence of something I've said, tell me and I'll do it later when I'm not as busy and have time to double check the facts and look up some stuff.

Personally, I'd prefer a more socialistic society with rules, but no rul-ERS. A society where people scratch each others backs to survive like my grandpa when he was a boy living out in the middle of knowhere in Tennesee. They lived off the land and traded tobacco for shoes and made their own clothes. In today's world people have be turned into cogs in a machine. Not making enough to survive while making others rich. That is if you can even get a job.

Yes, I dream of a societly ruled by warlords, lol!

The one's that seem to be more about money and less about human rights. If the US is so concerned about human rights than why aren't they doing anything about the genocide in Sudan? It's not profitable or a threat to Israel or Saudi Arabia![/quote]

I respect you needing time to gather the facts but in being quick to support that kind 'idea' is merely an idea without knowing the basics. What if you gather the facts only to find out that this is not at all what you had thought it was?

Well, the days of Barter exchange and simple living are gone my friend. I dont know, maybe in the back country somewhere but there is still always going to be a governing body no matter where you go. Without 'rulers' there is chaos and lawlessness.

Some of the conflcits do indeed seem to about things other than human rights but so what? Every country has a right to defend their 'interests'. It isnt always about the 'suffering' even if that is a part of it. There are reasons we are strung out over the globe and it comes down to interests that are more complex than the issue of money. Issues of stability in the regions, resources, allies, etc.

Even the current conflict that everyone is up in arms over; IRAQ. This conflict has many levels that layer the OIL. We cant pretend for a second to understand or know all of the facts. Me? The fact that Saddam fired on our planes umpteen times for 10 years is more than enough to kick his ass. These insurgents? You think these guys are good for IRAQ?
 
Re: Americans on the board...

My $.02:

1. This is a great country.
2. It's also a country that has some serious problems, and often alienates much of the rest of the world with some of its foreign policy.
3. Blind patriotism is indeed extremely dangerous.
4. Apathy is also dangerous.
5. Everyone has a right to voice their opinion.
6. Many of our wars and battles have been for good reasons, many (including Iraq, in my opinion) have been for immoral and monetary reasons.
7. Britain should rule the world because they produced Keira Knightley. Also, Monty Python.

Also, discussing politics might be something best done in person. I'm a liberal (not a Democrat -- I've voted for Democrats, Republicans, Independents, Greens, and once for governor of Illinois, I wrote in a protest vote for David Letterman because both of the major candidates were world-class douchebags). But I definitely lean left on most issues. Some of my friends do not. It's a bit easier to have a passionate debate in person with a friend who you can call a stupid motherf_____r and not have him take offense, because you have that rapport. We don't have that same rapport on the board. All the name calling on both sides doesn't do much good here.

Also, I'd like to reiterate that I just adore Keira Knightley and Monty Python, though not in the same way.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=75#76 date=07/05/04 at 15:16:17]I'm baaack.

Hey Slapdragon (I wonder if any of your students know that you argue with people on message boards going by the name "Slapdragon", lol), for one thing my "hey asshole" post wasn't to you, it was to the other guy. I guess I should have specified who the asshole was. I don't think you're being an asshole, I just think you're trying to have a little fun by bullying around someone who is less educated than you and who has a different perspective than you. It's the equivilent of me going and picking an argument with a conservative 8th grader. I bet that would make me feel real big and smart![/quote]

No, I am now an educator. My job and life's goal is to educate people. You presented an undefendable position so I was curious if you had any way to support it other than the time honored gnostic heresy. I did not realize you had an eight grade education, nor did I count on that to make myself seem big. My grandfather had a ninth grade education and was a radio broadcaster, a successful farmer, and a a deacon in his church who could quote the bible and discuss any chapter's meaning that he desired. By the way, not only do my students know my handle, but the ones I work with during the summer have been asked to start accounts here in order to learn from the many dignitaries of the production world which have ended up in this delightful backside of the Internet.

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=75#76 date=07/05/04 at 15:16:17]Anyway, it seems as though you're using the Socratic method and trying to devalidate everything I say by turning it into a question. As if my opinions aren't valid unless I can answer your questions or prove what I think. I can't prove a lot of the things I think. I'm just a guy, not the CIA and not an oral historian. Jeez, and I've probably got a lot of years to study and read until I'm your age (what, late 30's, 40's, or 50's?).[/quote]

No, the socratic method is a method of questions leading to answers, which to do you first must have a definate thesis. While I am unsure what you mean by devalidate, my vocabulary is not what it should be, I am using a method called logical positivism to require that you support your supposition with some sort of fact. The question of the validity of your opinions though is key. My opinions on the best way to avoid cutting the corpus callisum during an operation on the brain is all well and good, but the chances that my opinion is equally valid as a brain surgeon's is probably low. And if I walk into a meeting of brain surgeons and opine that a chain saw is the perfect tool to use when trying to excise a tumor near the callisum, then no matter how much my opinion "counts" I doubt an intelligent doctor will listen.

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=75#76 date=07/05/04 at 15:16:17]I don't need to "give you a link" to where you said that the average American's opinion shouldn't count. I know your type. You're an elitist snob that thinks your opinion is more important than everyone else's. You use all these school taught debating tactics, but you don't really seem to care about the actual discussion. You just want to "win" your debate.[/quote]

Yes, and without getting to know a person, I can tell a black man is a crook, a Jew likes money, and a Frenchman eats stinky cheese. I think here that what you mean is that my "opinion" "counts" for less than yours because you have successfully margianized me into some pigeon hole.

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=75#76 date=07/05/04 at 15:16:17]Actually, only 30% of people 25 and up have a bachelors degree or higher. That doesn't mean much to this discussion, since my girlfriend just got her bachelors degree and didn't have to take a single history class.

I mean come on, who has the time to answer all your silly questions:[/quote]

People who have time to spout out silly opinions.

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=75#76 date=07/05/04 at 15:16:17]Puh leez, pure rhetoric[/quote] Not rhetoric, but certianly dodgeball on your part. Is this a standard behavior pattern, making an accusation and then failing to back it up?

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=75#76 date=07/05/04 at 15:16:17]Buddy, that's the beautiful thing about art: Even a caveman can be a good artist... and I bet those cavemen that painted bison on their cave walls were better artists than you![/quote]

Maybe, maybe not. You have a penchant for making claims about things which you do not know. A caveman could be a good artist. How many were?

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=75#76 date=07/05/04 at 15:16:17]More rhetorical questions. We all know that you wouldn't come out and say something like that even though it's what you may really think.[/quote]

Mind reading is a great skill, I wish I had it. The last people who, as a group, claimed the ability to read minds and classify what people were thinking based on as short experience as you are, were the NAZI's in Germany.

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=75#76 date=07/05/04 at 15:16:17]What do I look like a dictionary?[/quote] If you use a word, the assumption is you know its definition.

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=75#76 date=07/05/04 at 15:16:17]My definition is you.[/quote]

And who am I?

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=75#76 date=07/05/04 at 15:16:17]Dude, that doesn't even make sense.[/quote]

Reread it again and it will eventually make sense. I write at an 8th grade level on the Internet, just like the newspapers.

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=75#76 date=07/05/04 at 15:16:17]There you go again[/quote]

There I go again...

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=75#76 date=07/05/04 at 15:16:17]You know Slappy, if I didn't know better I'd think you were just trying to confuse me with all the questions. You come on here and act like an elitist and when someone calls you out on it, you ask them to define it? What kind of lame tactic is that?
[/quote] I am simply not sure at what you think an elitest is. You are good at throwing labels around, but seem to be bad at backing anything up. And since you are really unclear about what you say about things and the meanings of words and concepts you toss around (you sure you are not Michael Moore?) I want to try and figure out exactly what you mean.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Josh_Boelter link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=75#84 date=07/05/04 at 16:29:10]Also, I'd like to reiterate that I just adore Keira Knightley and Monty Python, though not in the same way.[/quote]

So you want to hump the cast of Monty Python while wearing spandex leotards?
 
Re: Americans on the board...

No, I want to hump the cast of Python (sans Graham Chapman) while wearing the red cardinal robes.

No one expects the Spanish Inqiuisition!
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Josh_Boelter link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=75#88 date=07/05/04 at 16:56:11]No, I want to hump the cast of Python (sans Graham Chapman) while wearing the red cardinal robes.

No one expects the Spanish Inqiuisition![/quote]

Just as I suspected. To the nunnery with you, and don't come back until you have performed the oral sex!
 
Re: Americans on the board...

Slapdragon

That was indeed a slap! :o Nice take.

Oh yeah, Ill hump John Cleese if I can then hump Keira. ::)
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=75#77 date=07/05/04 at 15:23:46]
Well, I didn't get hostile until that ****ing army guy started calling me names[/quote]
Sounds like my mother-in-law. ;D
 
Re: Americans on the board...

hey this is supposed to be a "Canadian" site lol.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

I did not realize you had an eight grade education
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You know that's not true and I hope that's your way of trying to be funny.

My grandfather had a ninth grade education and was a radio broadcaster, a successful farmer, and a a deacon in his church who could quote the bible and discuss any chapter's meaning that he desired
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I wonder if you slammed for grandfather for not having concrete evidence or facts to support his religious beliefs.

I am using a method called logical positivism to require that you support your supposition with some sort of fact
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Ok, that's fine. Why don't you pick one thing that I've said that you'd like a fact to back up and we'll go from there. But see, you can't just ask 100 questions and expect me to humor you.
It just seems like an aweful easy tactic to just say "ok, prove it" over and over until the person gets sick of it.
My opinions on the best way to avoid cutting the corpus callisum during an operation on the brain is all well and good
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Hey, if you want people to understand you, why don't you try speaking english. You know people don't know what corpus callisum means. You're just trying to sound smart. You use words that normal people don't use constantly.
And if I walk into a meeting of brain surgeons and opine that a chain saw is the perfect tool to use when trying to excise a tumor near the callisum, then no matter how much my opinion "counts" I doubt an intelligent doctor will listen.
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Isn't that what they call putting up a straw man professor?
Yes, and without getting to know a person, I can tell a black man is a crook, a Jew likes money, and a Frenchman eats stinky cheese
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Slapdragon, I don't know what race you are, I'm only judging your words.
Is this a standard behavior pattern, making an accusation and then failing to back it up?
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Ok, what's my accusation? I'll back it up as well as I can and try to dig up whatever facts a normal person like me can get access to.

A caveman could be a good artist. How many were?
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At least one, probably more. Doesn't history show us that most of the best artists were quite ignorant (by today's standards)?

The last people who, as a group, claimed the ability to read minds and classify what people were thinking based on as short experience as you are, were the NAZI's in Germany.
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Man, I love how you find all these creative ways to put me in the same class as people like Nazi's, lol! Do you really have to compare me to a Nazi to make your point? I have nothing in common with the Nazis!

If you use a word, the assumption is you know its definition
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I don't know what planet you're from but most of us humans pick up words from hearing them in context. How many people do you know that learn their words by reading a dictionary?

And who am I?
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A guy who at least can come off as an elitist SOB.

There I go again...
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There you go again

I am simply not sure at what you think an elitest is.
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Like I said, I'm not a dictionary, but there's plenty online. Here's a definition that fits you:

elite: "a group of persons who by virtue of position or education exercise much power or influence"

add an "ist" to the word above and figure it out.

snob: "one who has an offensive air of superiority in matters of knowledge or taste "

I figured a brilliant man like yourself would already know what those words mean. Or are you one of those highly educated individuals with a selective memory?
 
Re: Americans on the board...

First off Tony. Don't back pedal, don't him and haw. You have made dozens of statements and insulted and attacked most of the posters of this forum in this discussion, and have yet to support any of your comments by fact one. Start anywhere you want. Your thesis is that the USA has not acted in an altruistic manner in any of its foriegn conflicts. That is a tall order, but choose the largest twelve and explain to myself. Don't tell me you are a common guy and you don't have to speak no good english, don't complain I am playing big bad bully intellectual elite bossman massuh tricks on your poor blue collar working self. Just come out and write up a short argument on several of the major wars, citing if possible sources or at least telling is where you know the things from. You after all had the balls to make the claims, now have the balls to backup the claims.

By the way, in terms of religious discussions. When Grandfather asked me a question and I gave an opinion, he insisted I back up what I said. Religion being based on faith resists many standard logical positivist discussion standards, but does not resist them all.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

Man, I thought I'd solved all the world's problems by insisting that Britain should run the world because they gave us Keira Knightley. Seemed logical, to me. I went off-line, watched Requiem for a Dream on DVD, come back full of bewilderment because of a fantastic strange odyssey of a flick, and people are still talking about politics that have nothing to do with Keira Knightley. Or Jennifer Connelly, for that matter.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Josh_Boelter link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=90#97 date=07/05/04 at 19:29:11]Man, I thought I'd solved all the world's problems by insisting that Britain should run the world because they gave us Keira Knightley. Seemed logical, to me. I went off-line, watched Requiem for a Dream on DVD, come back full of bewilderment because of a fantastic strange odyssey of a flick, and people are still talking about politics that have nothing to do with Keira Knightley. Or Jennifer Connelly, for that matter.

[/quote]

I wont get anywhere with this kid, I was just trying to see if he could support his positions with facts. My wife is cuter than Keira Knightley besides.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

You after all had the balls to make the claims, now have the balls to backup the claims.
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Ok, I'll try to sqeeze that into my schedule tonight. It's really not fair to ask someone like me to back up what I know from listening to and reading trusted sources. People get paid and published for doing that kind of work. That's fine though. I'll do a quicky critique of American foreigh policy later tonight. The only thing I'm afraid of is that it will make this thread 50 times bigger.

I also think your standards are a little rediculous. If everyone had to write an essay with facts about everything they suspected about their government or had a hunch about before they could speak their mind, then nobody could speak their mind!

Like I said before I'm just some guy, not the CIA. I don't have the resources to conduct a real investigation. There's a lot of things that I suspect, but could never prove. If I could prove them, then I would probably mysteriously disappear! The only people that provide information in this country that's cynical of the government are foreign media outlets, authors like Noam Chomsky, and sometimes the internet. So, it's obviously more difficult for me to find information supporting my arguments.

You on the other hand can open up any history book or turn the channel to Fox News to get some info that supports your viewpoint. You do realize the advantage you have by agreeing with the information that society has indoctrinated you with since your childhood?

Religion being based on faith resists many standard logical positivist discussion standards, but does not resist them all.
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I've got a good friend that's a Christian and his beliefs are facts (not faith) to him. He can't prove that what he believes is true and I don't even believe most of it, but out of respect I don't argue with him about it even though I completely disagree.
 
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