Americans on the board...

Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=15#17 date=07/05/04 at 01:19:22]
Yeah, but there's better countries like Canada (not geographicallly) and Australia and the Netherlands. Sorry buddy, I'm not cynical I'm just an anarchist and I think this country is going to have a shorter than average life span. Don't get me wrong I love the people and the land of this country, but I hate the government and the ruling class. I don't want to get into a big political discussion, so I'll just leave it at this:[/quote]

Wait . . .

Let me get this straight . . .

You're an ANARCHIST . . .

But you prefer the countries which have governmental tenticles in far more, if not most, aspects of life and behavior over the one with the least?

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

You use that word (anarchist).  I do not think it means what you think it means . . .
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=0#13 date=07/05/04 at 00:14:01]Hmm... maybe I'm not too good with history, but I don't remember any quotes from July 4th like:

"From this day forward, we will be known as the United States and the land we live on is now a country for the first time ever!"

The 4th of July is to celebrate the declaration of independence, not freedom in general or our birthday. With the UK being such a good ally, you'd think that they might be a little bitter with us making such a fuss about their defeat to this day. :D

Anyway, my point is that every week or two in this country there's some stupid holiday like memorial day, independence day, presidents day, thanksgiving, flag day, and columbus day. It's like they want us to be nationalistic or something. Not to mention all the stupid made-up holidays like valentine's day and sweetest day and all the religious days too. Halloween is the only holiday I like.[/quote]

No, apparently, you're not "too good with history." Read the Declaration of Independence. It was the document in which we DID INDEED declare ourselves a nation. And it's dated July 4th.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=0#13 date=07/05/04 at 00:14:01]Anyway, my point is that every week or two in this country there's some stupid holiday like memorial day, independence day, presidents day, thanksgiving, flag day, and columbus day.[/quote]
Memorial Day stupid?

Do you have any idea how ridiculously asinine that comment sounds? The amount of disgust I feel toward you is beyond words. How dare you disrespect and shame such a sacred day of honor to those that paid the ultimate price so fools like you can make idiotic comments behind the safety of a keyboard!

You cowardly pathetic little creature.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Ranger link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=15#19 date=07/05/04 at 04:00:40]
No ****, with people like you polluting our country with such negative filth, always bitching about everything, and yet not lifting a finger to make it a better place.
[/quote]

Ranger, please allow me to respectfully disagree with you. I have been a volunteer deputy sherrif with a shiny badge, gun, uniform, and arrest powers for four years now. Although people do not realize it, my job is, when it comes down to it, is to protect the constitution of the united states by perpetuating that system of government through the keeping of its laws, each and every one of which was promagulated by a democratically elected official and supported by a free and impartial court.

In that time I have twice came very close to cashing in my chips, once been injured, and had to deal with endless nasty, horrible, and abusive people who also happen to be my fellow citizens. In all of that time not only have I not violated anyone's constitutional protections, I have never even seen it being done by the farthest stretch of the imagination.

However, I want you to understand this. Not only did I spend precious hours of my life to protect you who clearly loves his nation, but I spent them to protect Tony_H, who is clearly not as enamoured with it, and I spent those same hours protecting the punk who tried to take my gun after beating down a fellow officer two years ago. And if you left the nation and I was left with Tony_H, a law abiding citizen who hates his nation, and the punk who tried to take my life, I would still do the job, and if Tony_H left the next day and it was just me and the punk, who made bail hours and served only a month in jail, I would still protect him from any other punk which wanted to take away his right to enjoy the liberty of our nation.

As for Memorial day, police often use that day to remember their fallen comrades. I still dress up in my blues and stand honor guard if I can. But remember that the sacrifices that police make, and the greater sacrifices that soldiers make, are in particular so that some kid on a forum somewhere can call police thugs, soldiers stupid, rave about a ruling class, and enjoy the benifits of low cost internet and safe streets. I am not personally offended that someone is griping about memorial day, I am honored and touched that they are doing that griping. In Cuba today, protests against the USA and national celebrations are proceeded by block wardens pushing people in the streets. If you fail to show great support and wave the flag enough, you will join the hundreds of thousands in jail for political crimes in that country. If you express your disdain for the country while getting your hair cut at the barbor and the block warden hears you, you can loose your freedom. Each time I hear someone pipe up I think that they can pipe up because I and many others did their jobs right.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

This is where the fun begins.

Although I know the popular meaning of anarchy is one of violence and chaos I do know that it merely a political idea of "an absense" of ruler or "having no government" and Tony_H I'm not sure which definition you subscribe to but in either case that political (lack of actually) structure would never work in any society.

Simply put, there would be no officers to protect you, no military to protect you, no roads to drive on or any other "Government" provisions.

Canada and Australia do seem like great countries and no one ever seems to **** with them (perhaps because the United States would throw the hammer down if anyone tried?) but lets not forget that Canada has some of the best real estate in the world (Right next to us).

If the Rich are the ruling class then so be it. My goal in life is to become rich; is this bad? How many countries can one have a legitimate oppurtunity to become their own entity in terms of personal finance? What about 'rags to riches' stories? From poor to wealthy? The Amercan Dream? There are so many levels of wealth; corporations, athletes, inventors, entertainers (filmmakers) and simply persons who spend their life working only to invest wisely and live frugal lives (The Millionaire Next Door).

There is NO ruling class in America. That is a slogan for the poor and pissed who are not willing to help themselves. Most people who are wealthy and a part of this CLASS are very active in politics and the community. These are the people that are doing something instead of complaining. Drive through any **** neighborhood in America and it is those people who need to do something about it and help themselves.

Will this country have a shorter lifespan than say the Roman, Spanish, English, Greeks, French or any other country thatt at one time was the CENTER of power? Maybe. At just over 200 years old we have a ways to go and barring a nuclear war I dont see it happening anytime soon and Id like to see ANY country try and take our ass over; not with these citizens.

BTW - Halloween is indeed a magical little holiday and RANGER, I always enjoy your well thought out takes.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

Slapdragon,

Good points.  I sincerely understand the concepts you so eloquently laid out.  Lot's a great poliitical theory to discuss here, but sadly it's 0330 Korea time so it's time for bed.

I'll explore those points in greater detail at another time.

Oh ... Tony_H, keep one eye out for the Black Chinook.  It's headed your way.  :o
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=John Hudson link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=15#24 date=07/05/04 at 11:28:48] At just over 200 years old we have a ways to go and barring a nuclear war I dont see it happening anytime soon and Id like to see ANY country try and take our ass over; not with these citizens.[/quote]

Does anyone realize that the US, at 228 years old, is currently the oldest soveriegn national democracy in the world? Depending on how you figure democracy, the democracy of Rome only lasted 376 years, through the killing of Tiberius Gracchus in 133 BCE (some would claim another 100 years through the reign of ceasar). The US has come a long way.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

I didnt know that. Nice.

Hey Ranger? You're in KOREA? Where at? Near the Ville?
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Slapdragon link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=15#26 date=07/05/04 at 11:45:05]

Does anyone realize that the US, at 228 years old, is currently the oldest soveriegn national democracy in the world?  Depending on how you figure democracy, the democracy of Rome only lasted 376 years, through the killing of Tiberius Gracchus in 133 BCE (some would claim another 100 years through the reign of ceasar).  The US has come a long way.[/quote]

Yeah, it kind of does depend on how you figure "democracy."

One could make the argument that the government of Great Britain is uninterrupted since the Restoration; after all, it was the "Rights of Englishmen" the Founders were demanding at the time of the Revolution.

But that's about it, and I would agree that it's questionable in terms of "democracy." I will say this -- only the UK has an older continuous government than we do, so if it's not them, it's no one else.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

John -- I agree with you -- those who use the word "anarchist" the most generally have the least notion of what it really means.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=John Hudson link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=15#27 date=07/05/04 at 11:46:59]I didnt know that.  Nice.

Hey Ranger?  You're in KOREA?  Where at?  Near the Ville?[/quote]
Camp Red Cloud (Uijongbu), 2d Infantry Division

2ndinfantrydiv.gif
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=David Jimerson link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=15#28 date=07/05/04 at 11:52:58]But that's about it, and I would agree that it's questionable in terms of "democracy."  I will say this -- only the UK has an older continuous government than we do, so if it's not them, it's no one else.

[/quote]

The Uk did not have universal sufferage for male citizens until the 1920s. The problem with democracy is that who is considered a holder of franchise has changed across the world. in the 18th century, male holders of property, in the middle to late 19th century male citizens (slaves are not citizens, nor are members of conquered territories like Ireland) and by the 20th Century all people in a nation were considered ripe for franchise.

In terms of democracy no matter how the franchise was divided up, the UK did not consider itself a democracy (and in fact because of its association with France and the US, disdained it) until 1911. The house of lords, which was the upper body of the British parliament, held legislative and judicial functions in the one body, was not elected, and could veto the house of commons. The house of commons before 1911 was nothing more than a powerful advisory body under the power of the Lords.

The start of English Democracy can be dated to the Parliament Act of 1911. It was then that the Lords lost its right to veto laws established by the commons, thus establishing the first true democratic republican system (since elected people made law, even if technically the soveriegn could still veto.)
 
Re: Americans on the board...

Infantry.  Jeez.  A thankless job by TONY H (Sorry Tony, had to get that blow in; Im just playing)

My brother was in KOREA (After the ARMY told him he was going to Germany; old story) 67th SIGNAL BATTALION.  You are near Seoul, yes?  There is a club there called THE NASHVILLE CLUB.  An old buddy of mine DAD owns that (among others).

Kind of a hot spot over there right now, huh?
By the way for anyone who doesnt know:

The 2nd Inf. Div. is the most forward deployed, lethal and combat ready division in the US Army. The Second Infantry Division's mission is to deter war. Should deterrence fail, the soldiers of the Warrior Division stand shoulder-to-shoulder with their Korean allies, ready to defend "freedom's frontier." The 2ID is the major U.S. ground combat unit in Korea. The Division's headquarters is located at Camp Red Cloud, Uijongbu, and its primary mission is to deter war on the Korean peninsula by maintaining a high state of combat readiness and vigilance. 2ID units "SECOND TO NONE" stand shoulder-to-shoulder with first-echelon Korean units immediately south of the DMZ.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

Like I said I'm not going to get into a political debate with a bunch of simple minded over zealous flagwavers. Like I said I love my fellow American and I love the land, but my government is one of the most corrupt governments in the world. Oh, and for the brainiac who says "well then move to another country huh huh huh", this is my land too because I was born here and I don't have to like the government. I'd rather try to make a difference than just give up and leave. I'll leave you patriots with another couple of quotes:

"Patriotism is the rast refuge of a scoundrel. He is the man who talks the loudest" - Mark Twain

"The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice--and always has been." - Mark Twain

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." - Albert Einstein
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Slapdragon link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=30#32 date=07/05/04 at 12:12:32]

The Uk did not have universal sufferage for male citizens until the 1920s.  The problem with democracy is that who is considered a holder of franchise has changed across the world.  in the 18th century, male holders of property, in the middle to late 19th century male citizens (slaves are not citizens, nor are members of conquered territories like Ireland) and by the 20th Century all people in a nation were considered ripe for franchise.  

In terms of democracy no matter how the franchise was divided up, the UK did not consider itself a democracy (and in fact because of its association with France and the US, disdained it) until 1911.  The house of lords, which was the upper body of the British parliament, held legislative and judicial functions in the one body, was not elected, and could veto the house of commons.  The house of commons before 1911 was nothing more than a powerful advisory body under the power of the Lords.  

The start of English Democracy can be dated to the Parliament Act of 1911.  It was then that the Lords lost its right to veto laws established by the commons, thus establishing the first true democratic republican system (since elected people made law, even if technically the soveriegn could still veto.)[/quote]

Well, I'm not sure universal suffrage is the end-all measure of democracy. One could very well make the argument that it didn't exist here until 1965.

As well, the upper house of Congress (the Senate) can "veto" anything passed by the House of Representatives (and vice-versa, actually).

The point is, I don't think you can point to any one particular year in which English "democracy" was born. I could be persuaded that it didn't exist in 1776, but the evolution to its current form wasn't watershed.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

Tony_H I respect your right to an opinion and yes even you right to take a stab with "simple minded over zealous flagwavers" comment.

Would you prefer apathy? Your're the kind of person who would not FIGHT for AMERICAS Freedom and that is disturbing. DO you have the right to your opinion? OF course. BUt you also are not the kind of would fight for this right. Ironic huh.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

Nice. Three quotes offered in a way that indicates a further lack of understanding of what they really mean, and in what context they were said.

While anyone does have the right to state an opinion, no one has the right to state an opinion and expect that it go unchallenged. That's a rather infantile (and in some cases, totalitarian) way of thinking.

If you weren't looking for a debate, I think you'd have been better off not saying anything. I mean, you can always take your toys and go home, but I don't think you should then be lecturing about "moral cowardice."
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=David Jimerson link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=30#35 date=07/05/04 at 12:35:31]As well, the upper house of Congress (the Senate) can "veto" anything passed by the House of Representatives (and vice-versa, actually).

[/quote]

Except, both houses are basically elected, either directly, or through pass ons from state based elected figures (the old way of doing the senate). The Lords were titular until 1911 and based on land title. The 1911 date is the best I have seen Poly sci types come up for the UK, in terms of when it became a functional democracy, since as I said, franchise division is not all that useful.

The reason is because prior to 1911, the Lords held the reigns of government, after the Commons. The Commons, as an elected body, counts as democratic governance.
 
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