Americans on the board...

Re: Americans on the board...

Again, you keep bringing it up and then saying you don't want to debate it. This is not the functioning of a disciplined or intellectually honest mind.

If you don't already *know* the history, then you aren't in any position to be making conclusions about it. I'm sure you believe what you *want* to believe, but it's supported by nothing more than wanting to believe it.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=45#59 date=07/05/04 at 13:32:44]Also, you guys should just let it drop. Political discussions are just devisive, especially when I'm involved. I don't watch the history channel a whole lot like you guys do ;), but I know enough to know that any historical event can be spun to make your country look like a hero. Historians pick and choose what they want to tell the story they want to tell. I'm sure you guys have some heroic excuse for every American war and I bet I can find a greedy excuse to match. So, why not just let it drop?

I'm not a history buff, but I'm good at research and if you really want to have a debate I'll do some research later.[/quote]

Actually I am a published oral historian who is six months from a Ph.D with a special area of historical research (amazing what you can do while you hold down a free-lance job -- if Spielburg did it, so can I). There is more to history than "picking and choosing what they want." Historian by and large not of the Michael Moore category have no need for machinations, and recognize that the Rashomon Effect can be the wrench in our gears. You goal would be, using the tools of a historian and standard techniques of intellectual discussion, to present an argument that would cause the average historian to reject the null and accept your thesis that American foriegn involvement is not altruistic. Actually, you need to go further than that and create an operational definition for what you mean by failing to be altruistic, and if you really want some impact, demonstrate in the actions of another country what you mean by altruistic action, so we can have a model of your operational definition, understand the opposite, and see how these relate to the evidence you present.

Sorry to step on you, but anyone can walk into a bar and say, that X sucks the big wiener. Free speech allows that. But it takes a lot more to go from "Nixon Sucks" to "All The President's Men" and a convincing body of evidence that not only operationalizes suckage, but proves suckages down the line, and even displays what the opposite of suckage is.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

And even present alternatives to the thesis and the null -- suckitude, kick-assitude, what have you.

As areas for possible further research, of course!
 
Re: Americans on the board...

Look asshole, you don't know me or my intentions. I know history and I've read a lot about it. I don't have the entire history of the United States memorized and I bet you don't either.

The only parts of US history that you seem to remember are the parts that support your argument. At least I am intellectually honest enough to look stuff up if I don't remember reading about it. That way I can honestly debate it.

People like you just keep repeating the slanted info they made you memorize in school "ooh, the British are trying to take away our freedom, the communists are trying to take away our freedom, the terrorists hate freedom and they love terror".

Like I said, I've got to go, so why do you keep posting messages "to me" even though I probably won't get to respond until later. Kinda cowardly isn't it?
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Slapdragon link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=60#61 date=07/05/04 at 13:43:17]

Actually I am a published oral historian who is six months from a Ph.D with a special area of historical research (amazing what you can do while you hold down a free-lance job -- if Spielburg did it, so can I).  There is more to history than "picking and choosing what they want."  Historian by and large not of the Michael Moore category have no need for machinations, and recognize that the Rashomon Effect can be the wrench in our gears.  You goal would be, using the tools of a historian and standard techniques of intellectual discussion, to present an argument that would cause the average historian to reject the null and accept your thesis that American foriegn involvement is not altruistic.  Actually, you need to go further than that and create an operational definition for what you mean by failing to be altruistic, and if you really want some impact, demonstrate in the actions of another country what you mean by altruistic action, so we can have a model of your operational definition, understand the opposite, and see how these relate to the evidence you present.

Sorry to step on you, but anyone can walk into a bar and say, that X sucks the big wiener.  Free speech allows that.  But it takes a lot more to go from "Nixon Sucks" to "All The President's Men" and a convincing body of evidence that not only operationalizes suckage, but proves suckages down the line, and even displays what the opposite of suckage is.[/quote]
Yeah, that's a real fair debate. An amatuer film maker vs. a published oral historian with his own biased perspective. Why don't you go pick a fight with another oral historian!
 
Re: Americans on the board...

Why do you keep saying you "have to go" and then keep checking and responding? It's been half an hour.

You've demonstrated numerous instances of faulty knowledge of American history; my replies have been to correct those. (Look, if you didn't know that the Declaration of Independence declared the foundation of the United States of America, then you're starting way, way, way behind.) My personal command of the subject is neither at issue, nor is it nearly so limited as you think.

You need to approach the study of history as information in the raw, not as a fishing expedition for gleaning only that information which supports your preferred conclusion. So far, that's what I've seen your intent to be.

So go do what you need to do, unless that's just an excuse. The board will be here when you get beck.

'Sides, I got auditions now.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=60#64 date=07/05/04 at 13:48:56]
Yeah, that's a real fair debate. An amatuer film maker vs. a published oral historian with his own biased perspective. Why don't you go pick a fight with another oral historian![/quote]

YOU "picked" the fight . . . :)
 
Re: Americans on the board...

And another thing Slapdragon, I'm a real American. You see most Americans aren't college graduates or experts on anything. We go by our gut feeling and we have intuition.

And guess what, we all have a say and our opinions count. Your opinions, albeit more informed than the average Joe, are no more important than the guy working at the gas station. And even though that guy at the gas station might not have a bunch of fancy rhetoric that makes him sound smart and a bunch of big words to throw around, he still knows what he's talking about. Why? Because he's an American, he has to live in this country, and he's got human intuition.

You see people are smarter than you think. Just because they're not a part of the educated elite doesn't mean that they don't see what's going on. they can't always explain or prove what they know, but they know what's going on. That's the beauty of voting. All you have to have in an opinion, you don't have to be able to prove what you think is true or come up with some snobby intellectual argument for it, you just have to believe it.

Oh and another cool thing about us Americans is that we actually live in America!
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=David Jimerson link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=60#66 date=07/05/04 at 13:53:46]

YOU "picked" the fight . . .    :)[/quote]
No I didn't. I just said what I thought and you all decided to gang up on me. I know a lot of people on this board would agree with me, but I'm sure they don't want to be slammed for speaking their mind like I have.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

Fine, I'm leaving now so you can say what you want and I won't see it until later. Have fun trashing me!
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=60#63 date=07/05/04 at 13:46:05]Look asshole, you don't know me or my intentions. I know history and I've read a lot about it. I don't have the entire history of the United States memorized and I bet you don't either.[/quote]

No, all you have demonstrated is the ability to use random curse words and be offended over polite discussion, plus shoot large holes in your foot. I feel that I have behaved properly in this thread, and I wonder if you notice I am trying to keep the dialogue open.

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=60#63 date=07/05/04 at 13:46:05]The only parts of US history that you seem to remember are the parts that support your argument. At least I am intellectually honest enough to look stuff up if I don't remember reading about it. That way I can honestly debate it.[/quote] Please provide a link. I have neither demonstrated my knowledge base of US history nor really needed to. So far, I have no need to do so, as you have presented no evidence other than the accusation of suckage. I can simply say, "nyaa nyaa, is not suckage" to trump your argument.

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=60#63 date=07/05/04 at 13:46:05]People like you just keep repeating the slanted info they made you memorize in school "ooh, the British are trying to take away our freedom, the communists are trying to take away our freedom, the terrorists hate freedom and they love terror".[/quote]

Well, your accusation is a bit odd since I have said none of these things in this forum. Provide a link to a comment I made in this discussion on this subject showing where I presented slanted information of any sort, other than making a request you provide support for your accusation, I have said nothing to you.

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=60#63 date=07/05/04 at 13:46:05]Like I said, I've got to go, so why do you keep posting messages "to me" even though I probably won't get to respond until later. Kinda cowardly isn't it?[/quote] No, since the Internet assure that you will have a chance to reply at some future time, and I am a patient man, as a teacher and as a producer and director I have to be. I am posting messages to you because you made a rather complex accusation with no support, and I am curious to see the wealth of information you possess so that I might myself judge the suckage value of the USA and her foriegn relations as measured over a span of two centuries. As a modern human being I am interested in more than scan lines and DVX100a, and am capable of carrying on a discussion and maintain interest in a number of subjects (it is that pesky Cerebrum, I keep meaning to have it replaced by whatever Michael Moore uses - an adding machine or a difference engine, but have been short of funds, until that time I am left with this large chunk of grey matter and a desire to expand it from time to time.)
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=60#67 date=07/05/04 at 13:56:00]And another thing Slapdragon, I'm a real American. You see most Americans aren't college graduates or experts on anything. We go by our gut feeling and we have intuition.[/quote]  Well, technically half of all people in the United States have some college or a two year degree or better, 35% have completed a four year degree or better so you are correct, per se.  Also, I believe it is correct that most people live by subjective standards rather than objective standards, which is why Leni Riefsenstahl was able to do so much damage, no one questioned her "art" from an objective stand point.  

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=60#67 date=07/05/04 at 13:56:00]And guess what, we all have a say and our opinions count.[/quote]

Please post a link were I disputed the idea that people have opinions.  As for them counting, I also have said nothing on this subject, but I guess I would have to know what you mean by "count".  The old saying goes, "opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink".  So in the popularist sense where counting means that they cause vibrations in the air that can be heard by other people when vocal cords are moved, you are again correct.  As you leap from a 20 floor building clutching your DVX100A to your bosum, secure in your opinion that gravity does not kill, because it never killed you before, then I guess I would debate your opinion in that case and say perhaps my understanding had more validity in the end, if only because I was left alive to clean up the mess you made at the bottom.


[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=60#67 date=07/05/04 at 13:56:00]Your opinions, albeit more informed than the average Joe, are no more important than the guy working at the gas station. And even though that guy at the gas station might not have a bunch of fancy rhetoric that makes him sound smart and a bunch of big words to throw around, he still knows what he's talking about. Why? Because he's an American, he has to live in this country, and he's got human intuition.[/quote]
The caveman argument.  If cavemen did not need fancy words like NTSC, vertical blanking, 16:9, three point lighting, and C-Stand, then I do not need them.  The caveman afterall was a perfectly good film director, witness all the films he directed and his massive box office success (or whatever you judge success by).  

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=60#67 date=07/05/04 at 13:56:00]You see people are smarter than you think.[/quote]

Please provide a link to where I opine on the intelligence of "people" and then provide a source where my "opinion" is demonstrated to be wrong.  I am curious, because you are coming up with a long history of my utterances that I cannot even remember making.

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=60#67 date=07/05/04 at 13:56:00]Just because they're not a part of the educated elite doesn't mean that they don't see what's going on.[/quote]

Provide a definition for a member of this educated elite.  How does one enter.  What makes one different from the common man you are espousing and the caveman I discussed.


[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=60#67 date=07/05/04 at 13:56:00]they can't always explain or prove what they know, but they know what's going on.[/quote]

So this "common man" who I am not sure who can belong to this elite all knowing group, is a brain surgeon, can change oil on cars, cut diamonds, operate a supersonic jet, repair watches, and operate a DVX100a, they simply cannot prove they can do this.  How interesting.  I must meet this common man someday.

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=60#67 date=07/05/04 at 13:56:00] That's the beauty of voting. All you have to have in an opinion, you don't have to be able to prove what you think is true or come up with some snobby intellectual argument for it, you just have to believe it.[/quote]

I guess, but now we are talking about voting, which is a complete change in the previous discussion of history.  Again, you must quote where I have said anything on this subject, since you seem to have read my opinions somewhere.  

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=60#67 date=07/05/04 at 13:56:00]Oh and another cool thing about us Americans is that we actually live in America![/quote]

Yes, South Carolina, my own home state, never rejoined the Union after the War of Ohio aggression.   ::)
 
Re: Americans on the board...

haha slapdragon lays down the slap once more :)


oh... and Tony... I've met/witnessed PLENTY of mind-numbing stupid people in the world. Your idea that "we're really all alike... sure I have an IQ of 83, but i'm just as smart as that guy because i'm human!" is pure drivel. There's a reason intelligence is rewarded in society.

Like you said... we have to have someone to pump our gas. 8)
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Kai link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=60#72 date=07/05/04 at 14:42:23]Like you said... we have to have someone to pump our gas.  8)[/quote]

LOL
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Tony_H link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=45#54 date=07/05/04 at 13:25:36]
The United States doesn't do anything that doens't serve it's own interests.
[/quote]

Somalia? What interest did this have for the U.S.?

Kosovo? What interest did we have then?

And David brings up the biggest one of all; World War 2. Number 1 that war ended because of us and Number 2 we were provoked into war by Japan.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

[quote author=Kai link=board=Offtopic;num=1088947258;start=60#72 date=07/05/04 at 14:42:23]haha slapdragon lays down the slap once more :)


oh... and Tony... I've met/witnessed PLENTY of mind-numbing stupid people in the world. Your idea that "we're really all alike... sure I have an IQ of 83, but i'm just as smart as that guy because i'm human!" is pure drivel. There's a reason intelligence is rewarded in society.

Like you said... we have to have someone to pump our gas.  8)[/quote]


LMAO

This is so true. Well put. Tony_H we can continue to have polite disucssions wheter we agree or disagree or agree to disagree. There is no need for hostility. If anyone should be hostile it is us as you have basically trashed America and what we feel passionate about. You seem very caught up in the 'conspiracy' theory. Every conflict must have a spin on it!

Start naming them and we can discuss them. There is always a different take on a subject and two sides. The fact is you gotta pick a side and you dont seem to be picking the right one.

And I highly doubt you would fight faster than the rest of us when it came to it as you dont even believe in what this nation stands for.

BTW I dont have a college education; dropped out after 2 years to join the USCG. Now Im a business owner with dreams of filmmaking.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

I'm baaack.

Hey Slapdragon (I wonder if any of your students know that you argue with people on message boards going by the name "Slapdragon", lol), for one thing my "hey asshole" post wasn't to you, it was to the other guy. I guess I should have specified who the asshole was. I don't think you're being an asshole, I just think you're trying to have a little fun by bullying around someone who is less educated than you and who has a different perspective than you. It's the equivilent of me going and picking an argument with a conservative 8th grader. I bet that would make me feel real big and smart!

Anyway, it seems as though you're using the Socratic method and trying to devalidate everything I say by turning it into a question. As if my opinions aren't valid unless I can answer your questions or prove what I think. I can't prove a lot of the things I think. I'm just a guy, not the CIA and not an oral historian. Jeez, and I've probably got a lot of years to study and read until I'm your age (what, late 30's, 40's, or 50's?).

I don't need to "give you a link" to where you said that the average American's opinion shouldn't count. I know your type. You're an elitist snob that thinks your opinion is more important than everyone else's. You use all these school taught debating tactics, but you don't really seem to care about the actual discussion. You just want to "win" your debate.

35% have completed a four year degree or better so you are correct
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Actually, only 30% of people 25 and up have a bachelors degree or higher. That doesn't mean much to this discussion, since my girlfriend just got her bachelors degree and didn't have to take a single history class.

I mean come on, who has the time to answer all your silly questions:

Please provide a link.
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Provide a link to a comment I made in this discussion
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Please post a link were I disputed the idea that people have opinions
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Puh leez, pure rhetoric
The caveman afterall was a perfectly good film director, witness all the films he directed and his massive box office success (or whatever you judge success by).
Click to expand...
Buddy, that's the beautiful thing about art: Even a caveman can be a good artist... and I bet those cavemen that painted bison on their cave walls were better artists than you!
Please provide a link to where I opine on the intelligence of "people" and then provide a source where my "opinion" is demonstrated to be wrong.
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More rhetorical questions. We all know that you wouldn't come out and say something like that even though it's what you may really think.
Provide a definition for a member of this educated elite.
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What do I look like a dictionary? My definition is you.
So this "common man" who I am not sure who can belong to this elite all knowing group, is a brain surgeon, can change oil on cars, cut diamonds, operate a supersonic jet, repair watches, and operate a DVX100a, they simply cannot prove they can do this. How interesting. I must meet this common man someday.
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Dude, that doesn't even make sense.
I guess, but now we are talking about voting, which is a complete change in the previous discussion of history.
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There you go again

You know Slappy, if I didn't know better I'd think you were just trying to confuse me with all the questions. You come on here and act like an elitist and when someone calls you out on it, you ask them to define it? What kind of lame tactic is that?
 
Re: Americans on the board...

There is no need for hostility
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Well, I didn't get hostile until that ****ing army guy started calling me names

If anyone should be hostile it is us as you have basically trashed America and what we feel passionate about
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Why can't you guys see that the American people, arts, and land that we all love is not the same as the corrupt government that rules us? How can you be so trusting and blind? Why don't we talk about the government and stop referring to it as "America" because what I'm trashing is the government, which I think most American people don't trust either.
Start naming them and we can discuss them
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Well, you see this is a forum about film making not politics. The only reason I've participated in this discussion as long as I have is to defend myself from insults. As soon as people stop insulting me, I'll let it go and start talking about cameras again.
The fact is you gotta pick a side and you dont seem to be picking the right one
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I'm picking the side of the people, not the elite, not the government, not the rich and powerful, not the ruling class.
 
Re: Americans on the board...

Tony_H

Personally I love these spirited conversations. I think Ive jumped in on every single one that has taken place at DVXuser. But, one rule is:

Dont attack people. (Dont call people assholes). Have fun with the conversation but keep the personal attacks to yourself.

I dont think the Slapdragon is trying to confuse you its just that you havent said anything that holds substance. You are quick to point but slow to support your statements. It comes across as naive and ignorant.

Hell, we have some killer debatists in here that whether or not we agree they definately back up their takes with intelligent data. What 'type' of society do you prefer by the way? Obviously not one that has a government but what? Somalia doesnt have a government (Warlords) is that what you want? Please tell us how you envision your society?

What conflicts should the US not be involved in? I know you missed the BIG WAR earlier but.....?
 
Re: Americans on the board...

Dude dont stress the POLITCAL conversation. I am adult enough to discuss this HERE and then run over to the Shrek forum and not hold anything against you because I disagree. :P

That army guy? You mean the very guy that is stuck in ****ing Korea right on the DMZ? The same class of character who has fought and died for this country? Come on man. You started in with the "I spit on the Fourth of July! and all the other lame ass holidays!" takes. Surely you gotta expect a response of some passion especially in a thread titled "Happy Fourth!" :P

Im still lost on who the Ruling Class is? The wealthy? I said earlier the government isnt perfect and the current administration is one of the more unpopular ones ever in office but as I mentioned earlier; it is guaranteed to come to an end.

What exactly do you hate about the government? Specifically.
 
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