Am I too stupid or is there a bug in the codec?

I'm not so sure about this hypothetical firmware "fix."

It clearly states in the user manual that fast movements will lead to picture break-up. So they know it's there by design.

Whether they could improve it or not - who knows.

With my GH1, I'm much happier with the 720p/50 in AVCHD. It edits slightly faster and I can't see any bad break-up. Running with a 1/50 shutter things look good on a 25fps Edius timeline. Less aliasing too in that mode.

I had less successful results with the M/JPEG based mode purely because 30p in 25fps leads to some blurring.
 
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Here is the exact line from pg. 105.

"When recording fast-moving subjects in the [FHD ] setting, some afterimages or distortion may be particularly noticeable during playback."

It's pretty obvious that it applies just to 1080p.

I would, to save future disappointment, don't pin anything on a firmware upgrade and don't buy it if you must have robust 1080p.

720p/50 is however, great.
 
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Bummer!
Same line can be found in the german manual, that I've obviously overlooked.
So if my son in the test clip is a already a fast moving subject, I'm happy that I returned the camera.
 
ROne said:
Here is the exact line from pg. 105.

"When recording fast-moving subjects in the [FHD ] setting, some afterimages or distortion may be particularly noticeable during playback."
Click to expand...

It´s a joke, right? Pana deliberately brings out products with such a flaw - skipped frames when recording fast moving subjects? Unbelievable...
 
I would say this is the trade-off for full HD at this price point on this stills camera.

All manufacturers have a range of products with cross-overs. This camera has stretched what a DSLR is capable of for the money.
 
Full HD mode has clearly stretched the GH1.

But yes, I suppose we should be happy that it's in there at all for the price. The D90 only has 720p. The 500D only has 20fps full HD. The much more expensive 5DMII has more jello and no AF.

Only first gen of video DLSRS... what did we expect?

Great footage can be shot with all of these cameras, but they do have flaws.

Firmware fix is only hope for GH1. It comes a lot closer than it's immediate competition to being perfect. The 'mud' flaw & poor AVCHD codec implementation is really it's only major shortcoming.
 
commanderspike said:
...
But yes, I suppose we should be happy that it's in there at all for the price. ...
Click to expand...

Right, after all what i´ve read + seen so far, it could be a real good avchd-720p50/60 + 720p30-mjpeg cam. I´m pondering about buying one. And with the pal-version there is no need for pulldown removal (luckily).
 
Just to get it this discussion right: if Panasonic brought e.g. the HDC-SD300 (which cost €500 less) with these bugs to the market, everybody would have screamed out loud.
Now, that we have a product that offers interchangeable lenses and MFT mount but evidently shows problems in the very basic application of a camera - capturing properly a sequence of images - you're all saying, the flaws are not great, but you get a good value for the money?
I really don't want to start a flame war, but sometimes I wonder about human reasoning.
 
did you have OIS engaged ? I have some strange artifacts when viewing with VLC and the cam was fixed but OIS was on...

And yes VLC is not reliable to view AVCHD footahe.
 
ThomasS said:
Just to get it this discussion right: if Panasonic brought e.g. the HDC-SD300 (which cost €500 less) with these bugs to the market, everybody would have screamed out loud.
Now, that we have a product that offers interchangeable lenses and MFT mount but evidently shows problems in the very basic application of a camera - capturing properly a sequence of images - you're all saying, the flaws are not great, but you get a good value for the money?
I really don't want to start a flame war, but sometimes I wonder about human reasoning.
Click to expand...

It's a stills camera first and foremost, that's where the money goes.

Would you complain the SD300 takes poor stills?
 
ROne said:
It's a stills camera first and foremost, that's where the money goes.
Click to expand...

I disagree, it is based on the G1 (that you can get with the 14-45 kit lens for around €575, almost a difference of €1000), but the main feature of the GH1 is video, nothing else. Just look at the guys in the photography forums (e.g. dpreview.com): baseline their discussion is, that there is no reason to trade up from a G1 to the GH1, if you're only interested in still photography.

ROne said:
Would you complain the SD300 takes poor stills?
Click to expand...

Yes. I'd complain, if the company's selling this product with this USP and it doesn't keeps the promise.

What I'm wondering - and not complaining - about is, why do people defend this camera as if it is some friend?
Take it as it is, a tool that is not reliable.
 
ThomasS said:
I disagree, it is based on the G1 (that you can get with the 14-45 kit lens for around €575, almost a difference of €1000)..............

What I'm wondering - and not complaining - about is, why do people defend this camera as if it is some friend?
Take it as it is, a tool that is not reliable.
Click to expand...

Yep, i got the same impression sometimes. But........... regarding the price i´d say it´s ok. The major part of that price is the lens at around 800-900,- bucks. I suppose pana invested a lot to get a real good af-lens. Do you have this feature with a canon 5DII or nikon d90? It´s a fine thing for run + gun, travelling... etc.

If i got you right, the only thing you´re complaining about is the skipping-frames flaw in 1080p25 mode. But what i´ve seen so far 720p50 works really good => almost no visible skew or bad aliasing (take a look at some stuff of the 5DII in that regard), clean image in lowlight situations.... Furthermore only a few points: swivel lcd, long recording time (5DII: 12 min., D90 5 min), no overheating... etc., and yes manual control. And now that we know the downsides of 1080p we could use it accordingly => no fast moving subjects, only pretty slow pans.

There are still some doubts but at this stage now, i´d say this cam is worth considering...
 
capice said:
Yep, i got the same impression sometimes. But........... regarding the price i´d say it´s ok. The major part of that price is the lens at around 800-900,- bucks. I suppose pana invested a lot to get a real good af-lens. Do you have this feature with a canon 5DII or nikon d90? It´s a fine thing for run + gun, travelling... etc.

If i got you right, the only thing you´re complaining about is the skipping-frames flaw in 1080p25 mode. But what i´ve seen so far 720p50 works really good => almost no visible skew or bad aliasing (take a look at some stuff of the 5DII in that regard), clean image in lowlight situations.... Furthermore only a few points: swivel lcd, long recording time (5DII: 12 min., D90 5 min), no overheating... etc., and yes manual control. And now that we know the downsides of 1080p we could use it accordingly => no fast moving subjects, only pretty slow pans.

There are still some doubts but at this stage now, i´d say this cam is worth considering...
Click to expand...

Good glass is expensive, I know 'cause I own several L-lenses. The price is not my point. If the camera would deliver, I'd even spend €1000 more for the kit, because I know what the camera is capable of, if I compare the footage to my HVX200 footage.
If panny only had implemented a good codec (like those from their consumer lineup) or limited the cam to 720p50, I'd also be fine.
BUT, stressing an analogy: If you buy a car and it offers on paper an excellent price-performance ratio would you be willing to accept, that on the street you could only use 4 of 5 gears properly (as a workaround you could limit yourself to using only the lower 4 gears)?
 
ThomasS said:
....
... would you be willing to accept, that on the street you could only use 4 of 5 gears properly (as a workaround you could limit yourself to using only the lower 4 gears)?
Click to expand...

I´d say that´s cheating. But has pana promised a perfect image in 1080p during panning? - Of course, i know what you mean. The majority here is surely thinking in the same direction. We all want the perfect camera for around 1500,-. Perhaps pana will do some touching-up on the codec in the future - that would be great + desirably. At the beginning i was as disappointed as you. But in the last days, after some contemplation, i got a clearer idea what´s really important for me personally.

So, 720p50 is enough for me in general. There is no problem to convert it to 25p. 1080p25 is definitely tripod work in adequate situations. Either i blow up the rest to 1080p (InstandHD) or i resize it to 720p. Either is no big deal. But all the rest seems to be all right.

And ultimately i want to mention that i have worked now for around 10 months with the d90. And guess what, i had to deal with every workaround you can imagine to get a roughly clean image. This problem here is maybe my easiest exercise :-). But surely, everybody has to make his own decision.
 
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ThomasS said:
I disagree, it is based on the G1 (that you can get with the 14-45 kit lens for around €575, almost a difference of €1000), but the main feature of the GH1 is video, nothing else. Just look at the guys in the photography forums (e.g. dpreview.com): baseline their discussion is, that there is no reason to trade up from a G1 to the GH1, if you're only interested in still photography.



Yes. I'd complain, if the company's selling this product with this USP and it doesn't keeps the promise.

What I'm wondering - and not complaining - about is, why do people defend this camera as if it is some friend?
Take it as it is, a tool that is not reliable.
Click to expand...

Fair points but I'm happy with the camera, next to my £4000 HPX171 it looks a decent purchase.

It's quite reliable, realiability is one thing and codec that isn't robust during panning is another, and this is pointed out in the manual.

I agree it could be better, but that's why Panasonics more expensive camcorders exist.
 
I think this camera would have had an easier ride if it had only provided 1280 x 720. Compared to the Nikon D90, this would be seen as a step forward in usability. Sure, the Canon 5DII has 1920 x 1080, but that camera is almost twice the price and would not have been seen as a direct comparison. As a 720 video camera, the GH1 would have been rightly praised for robust quality video at a good price. Unfortunately, giving the GH1 1080, which it appears to struggle with, gives grounds for dissatisfaction. In spite of the good 720, it's the so-so 1080 which gets all the attention. I wonder how many less people would have bought the GH1 if it had been 720 only? However, if there is a future fix (official or unofficial), then I agree the ambition of including 1080 was worth it.
 
TrueIndigo said:
I think this camera would have had an easier ride if it had only provided 1280 x 720. Compared to the Nikon D90, this would be seen as a step forward in usability. Sure, the Canon 5DII has 1920 x 1080, but that camera is almost twice the price and would not have been seen as a direct comparison. As a 720 video camera, the GH1 would have been rightly praised for robust quality video at a good price. Unfortunately, giving the GH1 1080, which it appears to struggle with, gives grounds for dissatisfaction. In spite of the good 720, it's the so-so 1080 which gets all the attention. I wonder how many less people would have bought the GH1 if it had been 720 only? However, if there is a future fix (official or unofficial), then I agree the ambition of including 1080 was worth it.
Click to expand...

To me, 1080 24p is a BIG plus. Even knowing I cannot do fast pans.
There are SO many camcorders out there that can do good fast pans in wide high detail shots, but SO little that can have a 35mm DOF on static cinema-like shots. I am planing on shooting a fiction short soon, I have a $700 Canon HV30 that I can use for any wideshots I like, I will use the GH1 for all the rest. I am happy I can get true 24p 1080 with nice resolution from BOTH.

For everyday shooting (family, friends, and even for event videography) I can use 720 60p from the GH1 and 1080 30p from my HV30 and mix them in post (the 60p will perfectly convert to 30p by dropping every other frame and I will have the "overcranked" footage for perfect slomo.
 
Regarding the fast pans everybody should do what I did in the past few days. My interest at the moment for the camera is for a television series idea. So I sat down and watch about maybe 8 different series which styles interests me. To my surprise no one, none, nada of them had a pan like the ones shown around this threads that had cause so much distress. The only ones that had something like that were 24 and Southland. And I particularly don't like their kind of filming styles. All the other ones had very elegant track shots, crane shots, tilt shots, crane and pan shots. None of that left to right or right to left camera pans. Very stylish, slow and well put together. Lots of MS and CS and a few LS. Over the shoulder and a second or two of slight movements here and there. My conclusion after this was that I will have no "mud" problem as long as I know how to shoot the way is supposed to be. Take your time and check a movie or two and see what you find out in terms of panning and moving the camera.
 
I thought, everything that has to be said, was already said. But it seems that some of you haven't looked at the clip that showed the problem: It is an absolutely static shot, camera was mounted on the tripod, no panning at all. A highly detailed background and just one moving object in front. The problem wasn't the mud, but the fact that the camera skipped some frames, i.e. the object stood still for some frames and then was somewhere else.
All the fuzz I'm making here isn't about the mud - choose an adequate shutter speed and this can be hidden in motion blur. It's about skipping frames.
Tell me how you want to use this cam professionally, if you cannot be sure, that all the images in a sequence are properly recorded?
 
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