Am I the only one that wishes panasonic was part of the HDV pact and used tape?
- Thread starter ecking
- Start date
Isaac_Brody said:
Using a Firestore with HDV is also a workaround... exactly, just a workaround a different problem. I am not saying HDV is perfect either. My gripe isn't with P2 or HDV or any particular format or codec.
I agree 100% that footage is all that matters, but we have to be able to obtain that footage as easily and cheaply as possible.
I suppose I am a little bitter now thinking about it, but not because I can't afford these things, I can. I am bitter that none of the manufacturers have produced the camera I want. I could just stand by and say "live with it" and I will have to for now, but by bashing these things out, we can learn what people actually want from a camera and a codec etc etc.. I think there are a lot of people with the same needs as me, who would also appreciate a different camera. If we don't raise complaints, how will anyone know what we want?
I never said Pany had failed with P2. I said it was ahead of itself, and it MAY fail because of that. It is very up in the air which way it will go, but my GUESS is that most of the market will not go to P2.
Sorry for sounding negative about what I am sure will be a great camera, I just always strive to get what I think is best - sometimes it costs me, but it is normally beneficial.
About Jan's marketing statements, please let's all remember that they are completely biased and can't be used in anyway to make decisions. By that I mean no offense to Jan, only that she is very good at her job, and all credit to her. I am sure she is worth many, many times her salary. I am trying to view my options from a completely unbiased (well, personally selfish) approach.
Anyway, all I am saying is that at present the "workarounds" on the HVX for recording HD are more viable than the built-in method: P2. IMHO, this shows bad design of teh product. The workarounds are always good to increase options, but the built-in option should be the most generally useful method - ie, DV, HDV, Digibeta, BetaSP etc, etc, etc. Similar things can (and have been) said about the XLH1 at $9K with only HDV built in.
Anyway, I must get ready for diner! I am very late!
wabbit
Evil has Ears
2 quick points about the hybrid stuff. Diesel produces far more pollution and releases a ton more carcinogenes then standard unleaded. A clean burning diesel would be great but as Toyota observed we don't have the infastructure for a bunch of diesel burning automobiles. While, yes, we are backwards when it comes to automobiles here in US, the point was Toyota was thinking beyond the current marketplace.
"fuel prices rose -that was not planned and they got lucky!" The waiting list was 6 months long "a year ago". Before this most recent rise in fuel prices. I think any company perdicting that fuel prices will continue to rise is not exactly using a crystal ball.
"Yea the myth that hybrids save you money is great. But folks believe what they read without thinking for themselves." Actually if you assume that gas prices stayed the same as the were last year over the life of a Prius the cost difference compared to similar vehicles, at worse, will have you breaking even. Figure in some higher maintenence costs (the nickel metal battery has really not been road tested enough and very likely will need replacing during the lifetime of the vehicle) and it could cost a little more to drive a Prius. That's all if fuel prices do not dramatically rise in the next 10 years. Ultimately the point (IMHO) is not about saving money per say but getting a vehicle that does not consume as much of a very limited resource and releases far less pollutants then a standard automobile.
Well, that's my little rant on hybrids. Back to why P2 sucks :thumbdown
"fuel prices rose -that was not planned and they got lucky!" The waiting list was 6 months long "a year ago". Before this most recent rise in fuel prices. I think any company perdicting that fuel prices will continue to rise is not exactly using a crystal ball.
"Yea the myth that hybrids save you money is great. But folks believe what they read without thinking for themselves." Actually if you assume that gas prices stayed the same as the were last year over the life of a Prius the cost difference compared to similar vehicles, at worse, will have you breaking even. Figure in some higher maintenence costs (the nickel metal battery has really not been road tested enough and very likely will need replacing during the lifetime of the vehicle) and it could cost a little more to drive a Prius. That's all if fuel prices do not dramatically rise in the next 10 years. Ultimately the point (IMHO) is not about saving money per say but getting a vehicle that does not consume as much of a very limited resource and releases far less pollutants then a standard automobile.
Well, that's my little rant on hybrids. Back to why P2 sucks :thumbdown
Barry_Green
Moderator
Think about what you're saying. Jan has basically said "buy an alternative to a Panasonic product." Do you really think Panasonic's marketing would be saying that as if it were a good thing for P2? Jan's saying it because it's the truth. They want to sell cameras. They'll make the camera as flexible as they can. P2 is a choice, it's an option, but it is not mandatory.mmm said:
That's a question for Jan. If she chooses to make an official Panasonic statement on it, that's up to her. All I can say on it is that I don't think Panasonic considers HDV a professional format, and they don't believe HDV serves the customer appropriately. They wouldn't want to have a customer get screwed by using their product because HDV screwed their footage because it macroblocked and had a half a second dropout and all the other issues that HDV is capable of. It's Panasonic's reputation on the line, and I bet they didn't feel comfortable hinging their reputation on HDV.
I would rather have the option to have it on there. I asked for it in the beginning. I don't see how having more options hurts someone. But I would know when to use it and when not to -- a lot of customers don't know when to and when not to... they may (rightly) feel that hey, "if I paid ten grand for a professional camera from Panasonic, I should be able to use all its features, professionally" -- so they use it, in HDV mode, and they get screwed. We intelligent people can say "well, you should have known better than to use HDV, it's only included for those who don't care that much about their footage and want to be cheap" but that's not how it would go down. There'd be screaming and wailing and unhappy customers.
I'm not saying it's "crap" -- but I *am* saying it has issues. Saying it doesn't have issues is not rational.
Which is the beauty of a free-market economy -- you're allowed to do exactly that. Vote with your wallet, I mean. Of course, with the Panasonic you're given the opportunity to do exactly that too -- you can vote for P2 if you want, or you can vote for the FireStore/hard disk system if you want.
As for XDCAM -- have you taken a look at the price tag of an XDCAM system? Bringing up XDCAM is completely irrelevant for the discussion at hand.
"realists" WHO - HAVE - NEVER - USED - IT. "realists" who still want to use tape. "realists" who (and let me be blunt here) do not know what they're talking about. "realists" who would say "why use a computer to edit, that's stupid, we can edit tape-to-tape for so much less and we don't have crashes and we don't have hard disks and we don't have extra costs and blah blah blah." Well, you know what? They were right -- they didn't have computer crashes and they didn't have to buy expensive hardware cards and they didn't have to buy expensive computers and they didn't have to buy expensive hard drives -- and they're also completely obsolete.
What's the old saying: "don't knock it until you've tried it"? Try it. There's a reason every manufacturer is offering a tapeless solution. P2 is the best of the bunch as far as capability and reliability, but the most limited in capacity. There are tradeoffs (surprise, surprise). There's no free lunch (surprise, surprise). You make your choice, you pay your money. For someone who needs a small portable indestructible solution, the P2 system has such an advantage over the Firestore that it's laughable to compare them. For someone who doesn't need that ruggedness but needs long record times, the Firestore has such an advantage over P2 that it's silly to compare them.
They're different. Different is good.
For - Some - Things. A firestore with a dead battery would not be "better" than the main system. A firestore that gets dropped would not be "better" than the main system. A firestore at the beach would not be "better" than the main system. Come on -- each system has advantages. Don't make absolute proclamations that are misleading. The firestore offers more storage for less money -- that's an absolute proclamation that is currently true (and will probably always be true). The P2 system is quieter, and more reliable, and more portable (that's another absolute that is currently true, and probably always will be). But "better"? Better is relative to one's particular circumstances.
Can we rephrase this so it isn't so obviously biased, one-sided, and unfair? Let's try it this way:
"we have realized that P2 doesn't meet every imaginable shooting circumstance, so we've decided that instead of limiting our customers to one product, we'll go out of our way to provide alternatives as well, so that customers have a full spectrum of choices to choose when using our product."
If the P2 solution is not for you, choose something else. That's the great thing abouta free market economy with choices. But don't try to disparage it unfairly -- it is a great solution for many uses.
thisiswells
Retired
Imagine for a second that Panasonic introduced an HD camera body without a recording mechanism. They say, "sorry, but it just isn't possible to put a recording system in the camera for this price. What we recommend doing is connecting it to a hard drive." Users would jump at the opportunity.
They did exactly that. And, they also decided to put a pair of 9-dollar PCMCIA slots in there for more options. (well, at least one option)
The thing is, JVC is saying the exact same thing with their next generation 50Mbps HD format. It will be a $27,000 model (supposedly) without a 50Mbps tape drive. It, too, will record direct to hard drives via a Firestore-type solution.
So, I ask... Is the HVX200 really a P2 camera? Not really. It's a hard drive camera, but it also accepts P2 cards. See, it's not really a scam after all. :lipsrseal
Though, it is somewhat puzzling to not include the ability to record HDV to tape, but I would imagine the additional encoding hardware would have been prohibitively expensive, and frankly, too heavy to include to an already heavy camera. Just an idea.
They did exactly that. And, they also decided to put a pair of 9-dollar PCMCIA slots in there for more options. (well, at least one option)
The thing is, JVC is saying the exact same thing with their next generation 50Mbps HD format. It will be a $27,000 model (supposedly) without a 50Mbps tape drive. It, too, will record direct to hard drives via a Firestore-type solution.
So, I ask... Is the HVX200 really a P2 camera? Not really. It's a hard drive camera, but it also accepts P2 cards. See, it's not really a scam after all. :lipsrseal
Though, it is somewhat puzzling to not include the ability to record HDV to tape, but I would imagine the additional encoding hardware would have been prohibitively expensive, and frankly, too heavy to include to an already heavy camera. Just an idea.
Nathyn
Low Budget Ninja
mmm said:
I think you're just wrong here. Jan's been very straight forward. Think about it. If Jan/Panny just wanted to sale P2, they would've included HDV. Why? HDV gets more time on a P2 card. And time is the big drawback to P2 right now. The only reason myself and others aren't buying into P2 is the time. Let's face it, everyone's right about this one thing, you don't have to have used P2 to know a few minutes on an 8 gig P2 isn't good for run and gun shooting which many of us indies do, and certainly doesn't beat 3-6 hours on an HDV camera + Firestore. But HDV and an 8 gig card is a totally different story. I believe that's about an hour worth of 720p HD footage. Bigger P2 cards are coming soon (by the end of the year or next year). One 32gig P2 card will hold more than an hour of HDV, making it the perfect solution for all. Even I would even buy one at least one for HDV shooting. When a 120gig P2 card comes out at $1000 or less I'd grab it (maybe two) because I could record DVCPro HD for a nice amount of time.
So while I wish HDV was an option, I doubt it wasn't included because Panasonic wanted to sale P2, considering it would've been better for P2 if they had an HDV option. That's the reality of it.
The JVC was slowly winning me back. I was between the JVC and Canon but the more I learn about the Panny the more I'm interested. I still want the shoulder mount form factor but it's only one problem. Now that they're coming out with the FS-100 with four hours of record time I'm cool. And by the time I can afford this there will be all kind of stuff available for all of these cameras.
-Nate
thisiswells
Retired
Nathyn-
HDV is either 720P or 1080i. Not a single camera records both formats. Also, not a single deck plays back both formats. They are completely incompatible systems.
What's my point?
If the HVX200 were HDV, it would have to be one or the other. It could not be both.
HDV is either 720P or 1080i. Not a single camera records both formats. Also, not a single deck plays back both formats. They are completely incompatible systems.
What's my point?
If the HVX200 were HDV, it would have to be one or the other. It could not be both.
Barry is not only the Moderator on this board, but certainly seems to be the most rational. Tradeoffs are all this industry is about. It was a lot easier when all we had to choose from was film or film. Or was it? Super 8, 16mm or 35mm... or Super 16 or Super 35? A portable handheld camera or a studio camera? Expensive or cheap(er)? Which film type, etc. Always choices.
At Oakley we have a Sony 900, a Varicam and a variety of "others" including a Z1, FX1 DVX100a, and an Arri S16. We have a Smoke HD system and more than one G5/FCP HD systems. All are usable for different things. No one tool can do it all. The HDCAM is easier to deal with on the Smoke. The Varicam is taylor made made for FCP. Both are cameras are bears to drag around as quick portable cameras. We want/need a small camcorder system that can be used in our program for some applications and wish for quality that is good enough to mix in with the rest of our footage from a quality and editing standpoint. It would have been nice if HDV fit that bill. But it just doesn't. The hope is that the HVX will be that camera. We think it is a reasonable hope because we trust the DVCPro HD codec. It IS good enough. We recognize that the DOF of HVX will not match the Varicam. Nor will many other features. But the Varicam isn't a handycam either. Tradeoffs.
Depending on one's needs HDV may absolutely be the solution. But it is not ours. We tried it and it just has too many "issues" as Barry pointed out. IMHO, HDV is a grown up version of a consumer format, but as of now not as steady as the format it came from. The HVX is a small and less featured version of a professional tool. There is a big difference.
At Oakley we have a Sony 900, a Varicam and a variety of "others" including a Z1, FX1 DVX100a, and an Arri S16. We have a Smoke HD system and more than one G5/FCP HD systems. All are usable for different things. No one tool can do it all. The HDCAM is easier to deal with on the Smoke. The Varicam is taylor made made for FCP. Both are cameras are bears to drag around as quick portable cameras. We want/need a small camcorder system that can be used in our program for some applications and wish for quality that is good enough to mix in with the rest of our footage from a quality and editing standpoint. It would have been nice if HDV fit that bill. But it just doesn't. The hope is that the HVX will be that camera. We think it is a reasonable hope because we trust the DVCPro HD codec. It IS good enough. We recognize that the DOF of HVX will not match the Varicam. Nor will many other features. But the Varicam isn't a handycam either. Tradeoffs.
Depending on one's needs HDV may absolutely be the solution. But it is not ours. We tried it and it just has too many "issues" as Barry pointed out. IMHO, HDV is a grown up version of a consumer format, but as of now not as steady as the format it came from. The HVX is a small and less featured version of a professional tool. There is a big difference.
Nathyn
Low Budget Ninja
thisiswells said:
I don't want an HDV HXV, I'm simply saying it would've been cool if the HXV could've done HDV as well. I'd take 720p HDV. If I'm shooting for HDTV television I'd shoot 720p HDV but for film output I'd shoot 1080/24p DVCPro HD. Either way I was simply saying that I don't think Panasonic is using the cam to sale P2 because if they were they would've included an HDV option. They're selling tapeless acquisition for better quality and P2 is simply an option, one that will probably take off in years to come as prices fall and maybe sooner than later.
-Nate
wabbit
Evil has Ears
I think spieden has said it best. It's all about options. P2 is an option. Makes sense to a bunch of us, others not so much. The DVX is set, it's P2, no HDV. If you want something different there are other choices. You don't have to get the DVX. One of the HDV options might work best you. Are any of the choices perfect? No, but even the Varicam has weaknesses and places we would like to see improvement in a perfect world where all are needs are met for a cheap price.
It's time to move on, see if the HVX lives up to the expectations and put in requests for the next generation of cameras to come.
Of course with at least 2 months left until it's release I doubt this is the last we will see of P2 or HDV discussions. :laugh:
It's time to move on, see if the HVX lives up to the expectations and put in requests for the next generation of cameras to come.
Of course with at least 2 months left until it's release I doubt this is the last we will see of P2 or HDV discussions. :laugh:
Yeah.
When the "why can't the HVX have [fill in the blank]????" question pops up, the appropriate response is now "there are three other cameras out there -- pick the one that does."
Kinda something for everyone now.
(Well, except mmm. )
When the "why can't the HVX have [fill in the blank]????" question pops up, the appropriate response is now "there are three other cameras out there -- pick the one that does."
Kinda something for everyone now.
(Well, except mmm.
)Jubal28 said:(Well, except mmm.
True! I think that is why I am bitter
Barry_Green said:
Thanks for your viewpoint again Barry. I guess I may feel different about Jan and her marketing if I knew her personally like you do. My general point about that was that we should make decisions based on what we find, not what the marketing tells us. I am very impressed with the way that Jan inputs to these forums though, but we must remember that she is obviously biased. I know that you are aware of this Barry, but some people on this board don't differenciate between marketing and unbiased reviewing. It can also give the site a bad name on other boards as I am sure you are aware.
As far as my own biases and having not used P2, it is only because it wouldn't have been appropriate for any projects I have worked on since it has been available. Maybe this is because I am attracted to location shooting in the middle of bloody nowhere! P2 would be great for this kind of shooting if we could ge all day without downloading. One day we will be able to at good prices, then P2 will be great, no doubt. I'll see if I can find a job that is shooting on P2, but I just haven't come across it in the UK yet.
Barry_Green said:
Okay, saying "better" was unfair then, I conceed. "Better" for me doesn't mean "better" for all. At present one problem is that the harsh enviroments in which P2 excells often require longer run times without laptops etc. The P2 storage drive from Pany is an option then and should be more robust than a normal hard drive I guess. Again though, this is a workaround. I just find that the more straight forward systems are the better. Tape, you put it in the camera, record and eject when full. Compared to film P2 is obviously still far easier.
It also sounds like your personal projects are higher end than mine (and most people's on this board). In these situations, P2 is probably more appropriate. For example the corporate work I do tends to be a crew of 2, not 5. With only a 1 man camera crew, P2 is far less workable.
I understand that the HVX does give us lots of options for recording HD. It will be interesting to see how people do spend their cash. Anyway, I've enjoyed bashing out different viewpoints on the subject. :thumbsup:
Zig_Zigman
Well-known member
Panasonic will have an HDV cam. Bet it's a new version of a gS400.
fomoDVXpal
Active member
.John_Hudson said:
everyone play nice now.
dustino
Well-known member
There has never, ever been a better time to be an indie filmmaker, period. All the big players are offering tons of options to the consumer, professional, and everything in between. Look at how many users this site alone has, almost all of which are devoted to a single camera. I would venture to guess that an indie filmmaking site devoted to any and all cameras/formats wouldn't have had this many active users seven or eight years ago, maybe even four years ago. The fact that we are demanding a camera for each and every niche and individual concern is a testament to how healthy the industry is.