Am I the only one that wishes panasonic was part of the HDV pact and used tape?

[Anhar_Miah]

I think, we need to carefully balance Wants Vs Needs vs Bugdet,
you need to draw a 3d trade off graph and the cameras that fits inside the variable constraint is the one for you (hehe, my engineering degree finally came to use)

Have you considere renting?

I feel your anger too, personally I wont buy any of these cameras because I can wait, and I dont see 1/3" chips a very big leap forward in technology, for me the indie breathrough will be 2/3" at prosumer prices. First we had 24P, now HD, the final jigsaw will be 2/3" but then we be arguging over HVX1000 hehe



but relax there are worse things in life to worry about, like global warming, poverty, etc..

Anhar

 

[Haakon]

Which is why we'll never see DVCPRO-HD in a consumer camera. It'd never happen.

I think "never" is a pretty strong sentiment. The reason it's out of consumer reach right now rests on two things: HD itself is not a mainstream format yet, and the expense at which it costs to use DVCPROHD is still very high. However, we're already talking about 128GB P2 cards on the horizon, and the prices for that stuff are only going to drop and drop. Sure, it'll probably be 2 years before we see a card like that, and sure, it'll probably 6 or 7 before we can pick em up for $500 at a local Best Buy. But I think that solid state of any kind is unquestionably the future for video acquisition and the companies who are steadfast in hanging onto their tape solutions are going to be at a severe disadvantage in the future. Also, I do think that it will take some time before HD becomes widespread in use, but as a consumer format, it is still in its infancy. When video game consoles start being released with blu-ray drives, when movies become available in Hi-Def formats, when HD disc-based players are readily available - that's when more consumers will start to take notice. And even then, it will take awhile to permeate the marketplace. But entertain the notion that in 10 years - which is an eternity as far as technology is concerned - HD will probably be mainstream, and consumers are going to want to be shooting their home movies that way. Are we still going to be recording onto DV tape if solid state media is so cheap and readily available? I don't think so. And DVCPROHD is Panasonic's format... there's no reason they would abandon it - and who knows what size hard drives we'll have at that time. Storage, transfer, and archival of DVCPROHD material will be far easier and workable... in fact, I think it will be in just a year or two's time. Panasonic makes lots of consumer camcorders, and eventually they'll switch to Hi-Def along with everyone else. Maybe it will be DVCPROHD cams or maybe they will have developed an even better codec by that point, but to look at it as something that will "never" happen, I think, is a little overstated.

 

[icicle22]

Barry Green said:

"I think if we boiled down your sentiments, it'd probably be "I sure wish that I could afford an HVX, but I can't, so therefore if they'd only have made it HDV then maybe I could afford it." Which is an understandable sentiment, but it flies in the face of one important factor: if they'd made the HVX use HDV, then nobody would be nearly so interested in it! It wouldn't be that much different from any of these other cameras! The thing that makes it so awesome is specifically because it DIDN'T use tape, and it DIDN'T use HDV. No HDV camera shoots 720 and 1080, because they can't. No HDV camera does variable frame rates, because they can't. No HDV camera does 4:2:2 color, because they can't. It's only because the HVX *isn't* HDV, is what makes it so special. "

All of that is true. However I thought the original sentiment is "why didn't they include HDV" not why didn't they choose it over the DVCPRO HD.

Seriously. Imagine what they could have done with a camera that shoots all the variants of DVCPRO, HDV and DV. Even if the camera jumped up $1000 more bucks it would make it way more appealing to everyone.....not just pros.

I know that HDV is not as good. But you all suggest that buying the HVX200 to use as a DV camera until you can afford P2 or Firestore is a good option. Why is having more options so bad?

The HVX would still be every bit as "special" if it had a HDV recording capabilty to it. In fact it would be that much "more" special.

However I don't think trading HDV for DVCpro would be a good idea.

 

[mmm]

All of that is true. However I thought the original sentiment is "why didn't they include HDV" not why didn't they choose it over the DVCPRO HD.

Seriously. Imagine what they could have done with a camera that shoots all the variants of DVCPRO, HDV and DV. Even if the camera jumped up $1000 more bucks it would make it way more appealing to everyone.....not just pros.

I know that HDV is not as good. But you all suggest that buying the HVX200 to use as a DV camera until you can afford P2 or Firestore is a good option. Why is having more options so bad?

The HVX would still be every bit as "special" if it had a HDV recording capabilty to it. In fact it would be that much "more" special.

However I don't think trading HDV for DVCpro would be a good idea.

I agree 100%, not just from my own point of you but from the huge number of people who clearly feel the same on all these boards.

I think there is one reason Panasonic didn't do this - because people would have realised how good the HDV looked and not bought P2 cards. Why spend $4K just to get "slightly" better HD. If you are blue screening, take the uncompressed out into a computer, you wouldn't need the 4:2:2. It is nothing to do with how professional DVCPROHD is at all. Believe Panasonics propaganda if you want, but isn't it funny how Sony, JVC and Canon all believe HDV is good enough for this level of camera. "But surely, they can't be right, Panasonic is right - they made the DVX."

Pany has invested a lot in P2 and they are relying on the HVX to sell it. The problem is, not many people want it. The firestore was announced, and suddenly everyone thought sod P2, I'm getting a Firestore.

Jan I wish you luck selling a product that few people want - P2 that is, not the HVX.

As I keep saying, P2 is ahead of itself here, and it won't do Pany any good.

 

[Jarek Zabczynski]

P2 is a great concept I would be totally into it if I could get 16gig cards for like 50 bucks a pop.

 

[Tzedekh]

However I thought the original sentiment is "why didn't they include HDV" not why didn't they choose it over the DVCPRO HD.

Seriously. Imagine what they could have done with a camera that shoots all the variants of DVCPRO, HDV and DV. Even if the camera jumped up $1000 more bucks it would make it way more appealing to everyone.....not just pros.

One of the earlier prototypes -- the so-called Super 8 camera -- was MPEG-2-based. It was to record at up to 50 Mbps and, like the HVX, supported multiple formats and stored data on P2 cards.

 

[Loki]

I also understand your point too dude... I won't post anymore... I post too late at night to write nice coherent replies... but I have said whatever the hell I wrote.. as Kip would say:

Peace Out

:happy:

edit: mmm yes.. this argument is pretty much about nothing.. but it is fun to type :beer:

 

[Barry_Green]

I think "never" is a pretty strong sentiment.

Well, yes it is. However, I think it's still accurate... because I think that by the time the consumer starts demaning HD, there will be other codecs and other solutions available. Maybe H.264, maybe Windows Media HD -- something that is more consumer-friendly than DVCPRO-HD. So I think that as far as the consumer cams go, they'll skip over DVCPRO-HD and produce something that's gee-willikers awesome for integration in a consumer environment. That's just a guess though.

But I think that solid state of any kind is unquestionably the future for video acquisition and the companies who are steadfast in hanging onto their tape solutions are going to be at a severe disadvantage in the future.

Absolutely 100% agreed.

Also, I do think that it will take some time before HD becomes widespread in use, but as a consumer format, it is still in its infancy.

Agreed. Which is why I say, by the time the consumer starts wanting it, other solutions will present themselves. The HDV coalition is stuck with what they've chosen, and what they've chosen isn't very consumer-friendly at all -- it's stuck on tape, with slow editing, etc. Whereas in a couple of years we'll be seeing cheap solid state recording and new codecs which should make for a much better end-consumer experience.

Panasonic makes lots of consumer camcorders, and eventually they'll switch to Hi-Def along with everyone else. Maybe it will be DVCPROHD cams or maybe they will have developed an even better codec by that point, but to look at it as something that will "never" happen, I think, is a little overstated.

I think it's absolutely certain that Panasonic will make consumer high-def cameras. I just don't think it'll be using DVCPRO-HD. I think it'll use something else by then, something that integrates into Windows Media Player and Quicktime, something that can be played on the computer desktop or burned and played through the next-gen DVD players, etc. Whatever they do it will be designed around the consumer, for the most integrated consumer experience possible.

At least, that's what I hope they do!

 

[Barry_Green]

I think there is one reason Panasonic didn't do this - because people would have realised how good the HDV looked and not bought P2 cards.

Well, I think you're completely wrong there. Jan already said on DVInfo "we're here to sell cameras, not cards -- use the FireStore if you want." Who do you think makes the tapes that HDV users are using? Panasonic controls something like 70% of the DV tape market.

The firestore was announced, and suddenly everyone thought sod P2, I'm getting a Firestore.

Everyone? Really?

... and how did the FireStore come about? Panasonic recruited Focus as a partner, and developed the Firestore in partnership with them...

I'm not sure I follow your logic here. At all. I mean, I know what you want to say, or at least what you want to believe, which is (and let me paraphrase in the extreme just to illustrate the point) "Panasonic is an evil money-grubbing monolith who tried to screw us by charging exorbitant overpriced rates for those P2 cards, but hah hah hah we've defeated them because we'll just use the FireStore." And that's just... bizarre thinking. I mean, again and again it's been pointed out that if you want to use P2 you'd only need two or three cards ever, and you don't NEED them anyway -- there are alternatives. Panasonic is the very entity that recruited and designed one alternative to the cards. Panasonic provided streaming so that you can bypass the cards entirely if you want to -- and bypass any new product, just recording to your computer.

I just don't get that line of thinking. Look at the actual facts, and I don't think you can justify your claim. You say P2 is a product nobody wants, but you haven't used it yet. Use it for five minutes (yes, five minutes) and you will never want to put up with recording to tape again. Ever.

Jan I wish you luck selling a product that few people want - P2 that is, not the HVX.

Jan doesn't sell P2. She sells cameras. And they've provided P2 for those who want it, and alternatives to P2 for those who aren't ready or able to convert to it.

As I keep saying, P2 is ahead of itself here, and it won't do Pany any good.

Have you used it? Tapeless is the revolution, and every manufacturer offers tapeless solutions. Try it, you'll really, really, really, really like it.

And if you don't -- so what? There are alternatives.

Look -- I'd buy into your argument if P2 was the ONLY way to record. Then it'd look like a Sony-style solution, trapping you into a proprietary "like no other" system. But P2 is NOT the only way to record, and Panasonic's even been instrumental in bringing about one of the alternative methods for recording! P2 is an option. Not mandatory. It's an incredible option, which is currently limited by price and size, but it's a fantastic option anyway. But it's only one option! Don't buy it if you're not ready for it, but don't disparage it for what it is, because what it is is pretty neat.

 

[wabbit]

Toyota started developing their hybrid technology back in '92. The first Prius came to the US about 5 years ago. Most people laughed and wondered why someone would pay a premium for a car with a "weak" engine using technology that wasn't proven. Flash forward to last year: I went to buy a Prius, nope, a 6 to 8 month waiting list. People were bridding salesmen to get moved up on the list. Used Prius were selling for more then their original purchase price (that's right a brand new car was appreciating not depreciating). That was a year ago. Now with gas price thru the roof it is only getting better for Toyota. They are now selling their hybrid technology to all the car manufacturers that laughed at them 5 years ago. Cha-ching!

Point is, 2 or 3 years from now, Sony, Canon, JVC are going to be putting out tapeless aquisitions format cameras at a sub-$10,000 level. They will be rushing to catch up with Panasonic. By that point a lot of people will have invested in P2 and Panasonic will be sitting in the drivers seat while HDV cameras collect dust.

Forward thinking is to be commended but yes it does cost more. Some people see the writting on the wall and others don't. The idea that Panasonic saw HDV for what it was, a half-baked solution to cheaper but poorer quality HD, and went out on a limb to develop a superior (although for the time more expensive) recording format for HD. It is a risky venture for them demonstrated by the fact that half the threads in here are complaining about P2's price or workflow. Panasoinc is betting that enough of us will see the advantages and I am betting my $10,000 that 3-4 years from now, everyone will be laughing at the days that they had to record to tape.

Personally, when I heard that Panasonic was not part of the HDV group I literally said, "thank god!" At least someone sees this format for the crap it is and wants to offer up some competition. What if Panasonic had followed the others...3 years from now, all us mid-level professionals would still be recording to tape and dealing with all the crappy issues HDV entails. Meanwhile, when it was "cheap" enough, a low-compression HD format would be introduced that we would all end up adapting and throwing out our $15,000 worth of HDV investments. I just assume get that ball rolling now. Thank you Panasonic. Believe me, I am no fan of international mega-corps, nor do I think they care for me, but just like with Toyota and hybrid technolgy, I am thrilled that someone at these companies had the balls to think past this year's profit margin and what is safe and easy.

As far as what does it hurt to ask Jan/Panasonic for as much as we can? Because if you ask for ridiculous features at crazy low prices then Jan/Panasonic will just see you/us as unrealistic children always asking for more with no understanding of cost/profits that a company needs to consider. I still would love to see the HVX adapt 24/96 audio recording but that would require a more expensive A/D/A, thus adding to the cost of the HVX. Do they then raise the price driving it out of reach for even more people? Will the 24/96 induce even more people to buy the HVX then it drove away with the higher price? They got "people" in boardrooms with charts and pointers trying to figure out this marketplace. I seriously doubt they consider the person who says I want the Varicam for under $5000 in these meetings.

By the time the price of P2 come down to a "cheap" level, tapeless aquisition will dominate the market and I doubt all the ney-sayers will come back and say, "Yeah Panasonic really had it right." Fact is 5 or 6 years from now few will probably remember this moment in time when only one company had the fortitude to break off and start the revolution.

In the meantime, you get what you can afford and save for the future. Our company would love to own the SDX, can't, we move on and work with what we can, rent it when needed.

Cheers :beer:

 

[Luis Caffesse]

I agree with the spirit of what both wabbit and Barry are saying... but to be fair Panasonic isn't exactly the only company out there offering tapeless aquisition. JVC has been offering hard drive recording for quite a while, and currently Sony and Ikegami both have tapeless options as well.
In fact, if I'm not mistaken I think the new Canon XLH1 offers some sort of 16GB card you can record to.

I think a more precise statement would be that Panasonic seems to be the only company willing to offer a higher quality codec at the cost of tape aquisition. While the other companies seem to be offering tapeless alternatives, Panasonic's camera requires a tapeless system in order to keep the cost down.

Their "revolutionary" move is buildling an affordable camera around a professional codec, as opposed to building a camera around a tape format (which would limit which codecs could be used).

 

[Barry_Green]

I totally agree with everything wabbit said (which is not a surprise, I usually agree with everything wabbit says!)

Panasonic isn't exactly the only company out there offering tapeless aquisition.

A more accurate quote would be to say that there isn't a company out there that doesn't offer tapeless acquisition. Canon has an ad for their integrated Firestore right on their canondv.com homepage; JVC offers the firestore, Sony offers XDCAM, Ikegami has the Editcam, Grass Valley offers the Rev/CF-based Infinity... tapeless is here.

Along with what Luis is saying, Panasonic's big thing is that they're offering better quality by going tapeless. JVC, Sony, and the rest are basically offering the same mid-to-low-quality thing as they offer on tape, just tapelessly. Panasonic's pushed the boundaries by offering one of their top-end formats (something that would otherwise cost $20,000 just for the tape mechanism) and making that available in a $6,000 camera. That's where they're advancing things.

 

[ddh]

My interest in the HVX at the moment is to shoot in DVpro50 for good DVD productions. That helps make for good green screen work and that is a big part of the DV revolution. As for the costs of the camera. It will work out over time as I work and get paid. The DVX has paid for itself many times over. So will the HVX. I will keep using the DVX by the way. It is one heck of a camera!

 

[mmm]

Well, I think you're completely wrong there. Jan already said on DVInfo "we're here to sell cameras, not cards -- use the FireStore if you want." Who do you think makes the tapes that HDV users are using? Panasonic controls something like 70% of the DV tape market.

No offense to Jan at all, but she is PAID by Pany to say what they tell her. If Pany pay me, I will happily say what they want. She is hardly likely to say "P2 is really great, but at the moment it is very expensive. It will be more realistic in a few years once all the broadcasters have got into bed with Sony and XDCAM systems, but then it will be too late." The HVX is a marketing tool for P2. If a Panasonic (marketing) employee denies it, well, I'm not convinced.

About HDV, why not include it then? It would cost little, the DV deck is already there. I can't see a rational reason (saying HDV is crap is not rational, because it isn't crap at all, it is very capable), the only reasons I can see is that I have underestimated the costs of the HDV implementation (hmmm...) or it would prevent people buying P2.

Panasonic know they have to get P2 out there and used. At present I think it will loose the battle with XDCAM or hard drive systems. By the time P2 price/capacity ratio falls, it MAY be too late.... MAY... P2 could be the next big thing, but I would bet on other systems.

Everyone? Really?

... and how did the FireStore come about? Panasonic recruited Focus as a partner, and developed the Firestore in partnership with them...

I'm not sure I follow your logic here. At all. I mean, I know what you want to say, or at least what you want to believe, which is (and let me paraphrase in the extreme just to illustrate the point) "Panasonic is an evil money-grubbing monolith who tried to screw us by charging exorbitant overpriced rates for those P2 cards, but hah hah hah we've defeated them because we'll just use the FireStore." And that's just... bizarre thinking. I mean, again and again it's been pointed out that if you want to use P2 you'd only need two or three cards ever, and you don't NEED them anyway -- there are alternatives. Panasonic is the very entity that recruited and designed one alternative to the cards. Panasonic provided streaming so that you can bypass the cards entirely if you want to -- and bypass any new product, just recording to your computer.

Okay, not everyone, but a hell of a lot of people. Just flick through online boards. P2 isn't popular with a lot of realists.

I have nothing against Panasonic, but don't love them either. The Firestore will be a good solution with this camera, that in many ways is may point! The workaround is BETTER than the main built in system!

The fact the Pany actually partnered with Focus says this to me: We have realised that P2 isn't that great, there'd better be another solution for customers. If P2 was that amazing, we wouldn't need a Firestore! Do you see my point? An XDCAM is single system, because XDCAM is a viable system in itself, there is no need for extra boxes hanging on your belt and laptops 10 steps away will 1TB hard drives.

P2 IS very high quality and fast - FACT, all agreed. P2 is too expensive for a huge market segment, FACT. As NBC shooter said on another post, NBC just thought they would loose a load of P2 cards, and decided on XDCAM as a more viable option. Other broadcasters are doing the same.

I just don't get that line of thinking. Look at the actual facts, and I don't think you can justify your claim. You say P2 is a product nobody wants, but you haven't used it yet. Use it for five minutes (yes, five minutes) and you will never want to put up with recording to tape again. Ever.

Jan doesn't sell P2. She sells cameras. And they've provided P2 for those who want it, and alternatives to P2 for those who aren't ready or able to convert to it.

Most of my work is actually as an editor. This is where P2 really worries me. The archiving is going to be a pain in the arse. I personally think that a system like XDCAM fits me best. P2 would be a good option in the future. At present I can see time when P2 would be good, but I can see times (without using it), when it would be unusable at realistic prices.

Have you used it? Tapeless is the revolution, and every manufacturer offers tapeless solutions. Try it, you'll really, really, really, really like it.

And if you don't -- so what? There are alternatives.

Look -- I'd buy into your argument if P2 was the ONLY way to record. Then it'd look like a Sony-style solution, trapping you into a proprietary "like no other" system. But P2 is NOT the only way to record, and Panasonic's even been instrumental in bringing about one of the alternative methods for recording! P2 is an option. Not mandatory. It's an incredible option, which is currently limited by price and size, but it's a fantastic option anyway. But it's only one option! Don't buy it if you're not ready for it, but don't disparage it for what it is, because what it is is pretty neat.

Like I said, the fact that Pany has developed workarounds prove that P2 alone is not viable for this cameras market. They wouldn't do that otherwise!

P2 IS ahead of itself. Pany has gone on a limb with it. If they can get a foothold, it will succeed and become more successful and snowball with the whole price/capacity thing. BUT currently it is ahead of its time. Pany's partnership with Focus is PROOF.

Since Pany planned this camera, their plans have probably had to change a lot. They probably hoped for a warmer reaction to P2. Judging by this board and other and professional cameramen (I don't consider myself a pro cameraman) I work with, the reception is very luke warm. There are the Pany fanatics who love it, but I strip off both ends of the percentiles - the fanatics and the trolls. I hope I am not considered a troll, just trying to be a realist.



The hybrid example - fuel prices rose -that was not planned and they got lucky! The hybrid cars are actually crap compared to the diesels we have in Europe, the only sensible reason to buy one here is tax relief. Unfortunately the cars you have in America are vastly inferior when it comes to engine design (and most other things), but that is another story. British cars are worse (because we don't have an industry anymore) so that is not a racist dig. US is crap, but at least they are in the race. We are crapper. Europe is the bollacks!

 

[Walter_Graff]

"The hybrid example - fuel prices rose -that was not planned and they got lucky! The hybrid cars are actually crap compared to the diesels we have in Europe, the only sensible reason to buy one here is tax relief. Unfortunately the cars you have in America are vastly inferior when it comes to engine design (and most other things), but that is another story. British cars are worse (because we don't have an industry anymore) so that is not a racist dig."

Yea the myth that hybrids save you money is great. But folks believe what they read without thinking for themselves.

I miss my two MGs. I had a 72 Midget and number 800 out of 1000 of the last MGB's made.

 

[Neil Rowe]

..panny didnt develop workarounds for the P2.. they developed a great workaround for having to record to tape or HDD ect. by developing P2. the HVX is all about having options.. you have the option of recording format and codec. and the option of what medium your recording to.. P2 being the creme de la creme of the available mediums to record to .. the camera also offeres direct recording to PC , firestore, DV tape, DVCPRO HD deck, OR uncompressed output ..i dont know.. there just seems to be a real sour grapes trend lately. in that from what i can reasonably discern.. if something (HVX , P2 ) is out of someones league by price point or understanding.. it is somehow automatically a bad thing.

..sure even those that can wish it had longer record times and cheaper price right now yada yada.. but since they are likely making alot more than the cost of a few P2 cards from a single shoot , the cost of having to buy a few cards and not really ever HAVE to buy any again is a very attractive thing. ..and if you do want to buy higher capaicity cards later.. you can sell your older cards..

and people who cant afford or dont like P2 can use any of the other options.. they are not workarounds.. they are simply other options.. just the same as vanilla is not a work around for chocolate.. just like the fact that panasonic put in 1080p is not proof that their 720p format is somehow inferior and needed a workaround.. its just another option. or the fact that they included DVCPRO 25 is not proof that DV wasnt good enough.. it is for all practical purposes the same thing.. but again it just gives another option.

anyway just IMHO..




..edit: "U. S. citizen".. is not a race..:beer:

Unfortunately the cars you have in America are vastly inferior when it comes to engine design (and most other things), but that is another story. British cars are worse (because we don't have an industry anymore) so that is not a racist dig.

 

[mmm]

..panny didnt develop workarounds for the P2.. they developed a great workaround for having to record to tape or HDD ect. by developing P2. the HVX is all about having options.. you have the option of recording format and codec. and the option of what medium your recording to.. P2 being the creme de la creme of the available mediums to record to .. the camera also offeres direct recording to PC , firestore, DV tape, DVCPRO HD deck, OR uncompressed output ..i dont know.. there just seems to be a real sour grapes trend lately. in that from what i can reasonably discern.. if something (HVX , P2 ) is out of someones league by price point or understanding.. it is somehow automatically a bad thing.

The Firestore is a workaround P2. It prevents you from having to use P2. P2 is the system that this camera is designed to use. If it was designed to use hard drives, why not build a controller into the camera!? BUT, Pany DID build a controller into the camera... a controller that allows you to download from P2! Why not let us record straight to the hard drive then - because it would defeat P2 - they make us record to P2 first... well that was their plan...

I may just be a sceptic (okay, I am, but don't see the harm in questioning things) but to me this partnership with Firestore seems like a result of the luke-warm reception of P2. Pany thought P2 would win people over to this camera, but it has actually repelled many people (not everyone, I know). Therefore they have realised more options are needed. The partnership with Focus is the result.

Let me use a car example, people love those:

The Allegro was a 1970's car with a square steering wheel. The marketing heralded it as an innovation which "aided access to the driver's seat." What that meant was "Our design was crap, so bad in fact that we found you couldn't get into the car! Therefore we had to cut bits off the steering wheel and make it square."

Marketing is complete crap is what I am saying.

To me "multiple options" means the original design was not good enough, so we had to find more options. This does make sense. How are you supposed to run and gun on P2? Running-and-gunning is a KEY part of what camera like this are needed for. Look at the PD150s in Iraq.

..sure even those that can wish it had longer record times and cheaper price right now yada yada..

..yada..yada ..yada!!!! These are REALLY important factors!

I guess in answer to the original question: Am I the only one that wishes panasonic was part of the HDV pact and used tape?

The answer is no, your not. Personally I would have preferred them to not use P2 or HDV. If I get the camera, I will probably go with the Firestore, I just think that the camera should have a hard drive controller built in. I think Pany didn't do so because they though it would stop people buying P2, which it certainly would have done.

I am not bitter about not being able to afford the camera, I can - with my own, or project money. I am bitter that technology is stepping sideways here. For the benefits P2 brings to my workflow, it brings just as many disadvantages. At least HDV is a pure step foward from DV - as long as your computer can handle it.

 

[Neil Rowe]

id be willing to bet that firestore knew about the HVX and 1394 streaming long before the cam was fully developed.. i mean.. its STILL being developed.. right now . pani is Still taking little suggestions for things to add.. so i could nt say that the camera didnt have a firestore type streaming device in mind from inception.. I actually suggested the same thing a long time ago that the controller that control P2 should control any off the shelf externall HDD as well, but no dice... at that time though JAn already elluded to the fact that she new there would be a firestore like 1394 streaming HDD device already...


the reason i yada yada yada'd the record times and price point is because they will get better with time.. its only right now at the HVx release time that its an issue.. it only gets better from here.. so while i know its important.. i also know that its alredy being worked on to make it better. but for dramatic and coprorate/commercial type people 32 min of straight recording in 720p HD @ 24p without switching is plenty already. i could get by on a single 4 GB card for dramaitic work really.. 128 GB cards will just be fluff for dramatic work imho

 

[J.R. Hudson]

Unfortunately the cars you have in America are vastly inferior when it comes to engine design...

But my family drives NISSAN.

Sorry - couldn't resist as I have nothing to offer on the techtalk. :evil:

 

[Isaac_Brody]

This talk is going around in circles. MMM you sound deadset on looking at the HVX in one way, despite Jan's answers to the contrary. You can badmouth P2 and say Panasonic failed, but broadcasters are already using it with the HVX400 and SPX800. If you don't want to use it, fine, use a firestore, go direct to laptop, use something else.

There are options that don't force you to adopt P2. You may call them workarounds and compromises, but the same compromises are also available to the Xl2, XL-HL, and every other HDV camera out there. By your rationale HDV is a mistake, when in reality the reason people use Firestore is because HDV is prone to GOP dropouts and firestore skips the capturing process. P2 also skips the capturing process. As an editor you must be able to appreciate that. And archiving is pretty cheap with DL-DVDs. If you're paranoid burn two copies, or archive to harddrive. Yes harddrive can be expensive over time, but a lot of post places already do that with projects. DL-DVD for filmmakers on a budget, harddrive archive for budget filmmakers. Obviously both are prone to failure, but so too is tape archiving as well.

I could rehash and rehash but what's the point? For me, the proof is in the footage.