Am I making my life difficult?

S

stringz

Active member
Working on a comedy drama thing at the moment. Takes place at a speed dating event (you have these in the states right?) The scenario is basically this; guy sitting at small table in a bar as a procession of women take turns sitting with him for two minutes "getting to know each other" before moving on to another shmuck. So just two people at any one time. The dialogue is swift and occasionally overlapping (I have tried to tell the director this should be avoided but he wants it au naturel). I am operating alone and was originally going to just radio mic them both and split the channels. However there's a fair bit of movement and consequently I would get a bit of rustle over lines.
I would not mind scrapping the radios and just going with the boom howver the dialogue is so swift that i would inevitably miss the start of lines (I'm not really swinging just holding it in the middle and tilting as they are quite close). Also because i'm using a Sennheiser MKH 60 if it is slightly off mic it does not sound that great.

The next consideration is that they are filming on 2 cameras( one on each actor) and so there are no offlines. I can't just committ to the person on camera as i do with most 1 camera set ups.

As a result of these considerations I have decided to go with boom on the left channel and two radios on the right and I believe that this should cover me.

But this does seem like quite a lot of work given the circumstances (and the pay ain't great (but hey, i do like to get good sound whatever)).

What do you guys think? Is there a way top cut down the workload here?
 
this is similar to how the two sound guys I saw on Gus Van Sant's sets (i.e. lots of improv) work. they radio everyone and one mixer monitors and records those, while the other guy operates a single boom fed into his own mixer/field recorder worn over his shoulder.
 
Sounds a bit like overkill. Look, you've got an important thing working in your favor:
the talent is very much localized. I assume the most motion you will ever have is
that they stand up when they first meet. Otherwise, it's tight action
and a tight shot (i.e. you can get a boom in close).

I would suggest a single microphone, a normal cardiod or hypercardiod
(e.g. Neumann KM184) directly above the pair pointed down between
them. Since they will be standing up, you'll need to have it on a boom, but a
simple up and down motion should suffice.

The danger with using several mics in close proximity is that the bleed from
Actor 1 going into Actor 2's mic, when mixed down, will cause awful phasing
problems, requiring even more work for you in post to fix.

So one mic would actually be the cleanest and easiest solution. As the old
pros say, "Never use two mics when one mic will do."

Other details: cover the table with felt to get rid of some of the reflections.
Try to isolate the couple a little with side panels (ideally soft material,
otherwise glass) to avoid picking up envrionmental noise.

Hope that helps. Who knows? Maybe you'll meet someone. : )

Les
 
If this was a gus van sant movie i would not even murmur never mind moan but it ain't. By the way what was the recordist with the boom picking up?
 
stuckfootage said:
Sounds a bit like overkill. Look, you've got an important thing working in your favor:
the talent is very much localized. I assume the most motion you will ever have is
that they stand up when they first meet. Otherwise, it's tight action
and a tight shot (i.e. you can get a boom in close).

I would suggest a single microphone, a normal cardiod or hypercardiod
(e.g. Neumann KM184) directly above the pair pointed down between
them. Since they will be standing up, you'll need to have it on a boom, but a
simple up and down motion should suffice.

The danger with using several mics in close proximity is that the bleed from
Actor 1 going into Actor 2's mic, when mixed down, will cause awful phasing
problems, requiring even more work for you in post to fix.

So one mic would actually be the cleanest and easiest solution. As the old
pros say, "Never use two mics when one mic will do."

Other details: cover the table with felt to get rid of some of the reflections.
Try to isolate the couple a little with side panels (ideally soft material,
otherwise glass) to avoid picking up envrionmental noise.

Hope that helps. Who knows? Maybe you'll meet someone. : )

Les
Click to expand...

Cheers Les, but I got a girlfriend already (who i did meet on a film set but thats another story).

Thanks for the advice, but there is no budget for other mics. It would be lovely to have one with a wider pattern for sure (I am hoping to get myself an MKH 40 or MKH 50 in the not too distant future).
With regards to reflective surfaces, the table is in shot so not sure sure how i can dampen that and also most of the singles aren't that tight and backgrounds can be seen. There does not seem to me that much potential for acoustic alteration given this and the budget.
Perhaps I could put some carpet on the floor and also on the ceiling above the the mic? Silly as it sounds would duvet's do much?
 
stringz said:
If this was a gus van sant movie i would not even murmur never mind moan but it ain't. By the way what was the recordist with the boom picking up?
Click to expand...

hard to say, i wasn't monitoring his feed. but Neil is amazingly adept at anticipating. he definitely uses a mic ( i see this a lot on studio pictures now) with a wider pick-up pattern. i asked because I do a lot of improv in my own work. i don't remember what model he said it was. from watching him, he's usually going after dialogue and when he can't get that he'll get something else useful, like footsteps. Neil Riha and Felix Andrew (running the lavs) are some of the best in the business.
 
stringz said:
With regards to reflective surfaces, the table is in shot so not sure sure how i can dampen that and also most of the singles aren't that tight and backgrounds can be seen. There does not seem to me that much potential for acoustic alteration given this and the budget.
Perhaps I could put some carpet on the floor and also on the ceiling above the the mic? Silly as it sounds would duvet's do much?
Click to expand...


My guess is that, even with the table top in the shot, no one
would get upset about it being covered in felt. I doubt folks
would even notice, given the most likely bizarre dialogue.

I think softness in the general vicinity is bound to help, especially
if it's a noisy and/or loud location. A duvet would work, but
would you want to risk getting cheap cab sav spilled on it?

Finally, I think you might be able to use the shotgun from above.
Although shotguns usually have awful off-axis response,
maybe the two speakers would be close enough to capture with
reasonable fidelity.

Good luck!
Les
 
Would a boundary mic on cloth on the table work? I am curious if they are used in filming much. No phase issues, low profile and can hide under a napkin. Oh and no budget for them :(
 
Even a heavy linen tablecloth would help with the reflective issue.

I assume the guy remains in his seat and fairly stationary throughout? Would it be possible to lav the guy and boom the girls, following them with the boom?

BTW, personally I believe in overkill. You don't say what you're recording TO, but you have two cameras going. I assume each has two mic inputs. That being the case, I would use a lav on the guy and a variety of mics on the girls, dedicating each to a single channel on each of the cameras. This would give me all kinds of audio choices in post. But I'm not an audio expert, so take that advice with a grain of salt.

Good luck!
 
stringz said:
Working on a comedy drama thing at the moment. Takes place at a speed dating event (you have these in the states right?) The scenario is basically this; guy sitting at small table in a bar as a procession of women take turns sitting with him for two minutes "getting to know each other" before moving on to another shmuck. So just two people at any one time. The dialogue is swift and occasionally overlapping (I have tried to tell the director this should be avoided but he wants it au naturel). I am operating alone and was originally going to just radio mic them both and split the channels. However there's a fair bit of movement and consequently I would get a bit of rustle over lines.
I would not mind scrapping the radios and just going with the boom howver the dialogue is so swift that i would inevitably miss the start of lines (I'm not really swinging just holding it in the middle and tilting as they are quite close). Also because i'm using a Sennheiser MKH 60 if it is slightly off mic it does not sound that great.

The next consideration is that they are filming on 2 cameras( one on each actor) and so there are no offlines. I can't just committ to the person on camera as i do with most 1 camera set ups.

As a result of these considerations I have decided to go with boom on the left channel and two radios on the right and I believe that this should cover me.

But this does seem like quite a lot of work given the circumstances (and the pay ain't great (but hey, i do like to get good sound whatever)).

What do you guys think? Is there a way top cut down the workload here?
Click to expand...


A hyper combined with an experienced boom op should be able to work that scene pretty easy. Find a middle ground in distance and off-axis rejection given the volume of their compeating voices. Then just favor the main speaker as needed. Done well, any slight delay in picking up the primary speaker will not be noticable to anyone.

As a backup it is still a good idea to lav them. A hair mic for the woman will eliminate any clothing noise. A B6 hidden in plain sight (button hole, lost in pattern, etc) will work well on the guy, unless he is in a pull-over top. Also might be possible to run the lav in the guys hair if you go up the side opposite the camera angle.

Good luck
 
wabbit said:
A hyper combined with an experienced boom op should be able to work that scene pretty easy. Find a middle ground in distance and off-axis rejection given the volume of their compeating voices. Then just favor the main speaker as needed. Done well, any slight delay in picking up the primary speaker will not be noticable to anyone.

As a backup it is still a good idea to lav them. A hair mic for the woman will eliminate any clothing noise. A B6 hidden in plain sight (button hole, lost in pattern, etc) will work well on the guy, unless he is in a pull-over top. Also might be possible to run the lav in the guys hair if you go up the side opposite the camera angle.

Good luck
Click to expand...

Well i'm the mixer and boom op. And for three days now i have been running it with MKH60 on left channel and 2 radios (audio ltd 20/20 with Tram TR50 lavs) on the right and I have been fairly pleased with the results, though it has been hard work.

Before this shoot i had never hidden a lav in anyone's hair and not even experimented with it. However with one of the actesses i was forced to and though very nevous about it i was nicely suprised with the results, especially with regards to lack of rustle. One of the things that usually gives me a headache with hiding lavs is mens chest hair, hence why i have shyed away from hiding them on heads, but it turned out really clean. The one thing that i didn't like about hiding it on top of the head was the change in the qualities of the sound, while it didn't sound massively off mic it did sound a little odd compared with what i'm used to with the Trams.

Cheers for the advice
 
That will happen when you move the mic from the bass heavy chest to the more neutral area of the head. Generally meaning you should stick to one lav location within a scene.

The noise of men's chest hair is the hair rubbing against the material, like a bow on a violin, not from any hair on hair action.

You just need to practice with the boom to get tricky dialog between two people. After awhile boom placement and movement becomes automatic. But the MKH60 and 416 are the most difficult mics to do this with. If you can use a hyper, do so.

Cheers
 
aditional to work with hyper or cardioid ( like mkh-40 or gefell 20 or cmc504)
try place sound blanket under the table mp , that would eliminate sound bouncing from the table and less dishes noize .
about lavaliers , , i quit depends on the warerob he actors have , so hair micing or any other placement which you get less rustle
 
Oleg 2 said:
aditional to work with hyper or cardioid ( like mkh-40 or gefell 20 or cmc504)
try place sound blanket under the table mp , that would eliminate sound bouncing from the table and less dishes noize .
about lavaliers , , i quit depends on the warerob he actors have , so hair micing or any other placement which you get less rustle
Click to expand...

That's nice advice Oleg which I wish I had taken up. I could not place the blanket on top when I first realised that I should have because of continuity but underneath i could have acheived. Damn!
 
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