All sound in post...

G

g3nov3s3

Carbonite Member
I want to make a movie and record all the sound in post-production...
I think it will be easier this way because I will not need a sound person, a boom mic,etc...
Any tips on how I can get the best results this way?
What tools should I buy for recording the voices, the foley sounds,etc?
PS: I want to be as cheap as possible!
 
Glad to see someone else out there who thinks like I do! I did this for forty shorts and my first two features, so I think I can help.
CHEAP WAY (but takes time)
For the shorts and my first feature, I bought a cheap shotgun mic for $60. I cut the film using the audio from the on camera mic as a refernce track. After the movie was cut (with just a scratch track) I burned it to DVD and had my actors come over to watch the film (one at a time). Everytime we'd come to their line, I'd pause, rewind, and play it again for them as often as they needed. I'd then hit record on the camera and have them say the line into the mic (which is hooked into the camera at this point). If I thought it sounded good, we moved on. Otherwise we'd repeat until we got it. Next we captured the tape into the computer to get at the audio track. I'd extract the audio, render as a .wav and delete the captured footage (saves space). I was then able to work my way through the .wav, grab the lines and sync them up using the waveforms of the original camera mic audio and the the new lines. Sometimes I'd find I'd have to cut the audio inbetween words to add spaces, take spaces out, speed it up slightly, or slow it down. Once all the dialouge was in, go back do the same thing for all the sound effects you want.

EASY WAY (but costs a little more money)
For my last feature, my producer bought an Alesis 8 channel USB mixer and a VERY nice mic with shock mount. He found them on ebay and ended up spending $700 for $2000 worth of equipment. The mixer plugged directly into my USB port on my computer and after playing with a few settings, I got my editing software (Vegas 7) to recognize it. My actors came over, and we watched the movie on the time line. I could just click to each of their lines and play it for them, just like before, except there was no more rewinding and having to watch the whole movie (saved a lot of time this way). Also, I knew instantly if the line matched or not as I would sync it right then and there. I didn't have to edit the audio again like I used to. We did the same thing for the sound effects.

Conclusion-if you have the funds, option 2 is the best way to go. I did in a month what used to take me six months to do.
 
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If you truly want to be as cheap as possible, then you should hire that production sound person. The most cost-effective solution actually IS to record clean production sound, and to sweeten and add to it during post-production.

ADR is a very tricky process, both labour-intensive and gear-heavy. Sure, it sounds easy: just get the actors to re-perform their lines in a cozy recording booth. Here's a quick breakdown of the major issues that may not be readily apparent:

You will need to book time with the actors: If you're paying them, this will naturally drive up your budget. Even if you're working with volunteers, its still using up valuable volunteer goodwill. Moreover, if your actors aren't available for ADR, you'll be in a tough spot.

You will need an experienced ADR recordist: While you could mix the session yourself, you would do so at your peril. Its kind of like acting as your own defense attorney. Getting a clean recording that's in synch is only the start of the challenge; unless, you're after a specific effect, you'll also want it to sound as though it were recorded on-location, so that it blends naturally with the rest of the track. Mic it too closely, and it'll sound like everyone is sitting around and talking into a microphone. This canned dialogue sound can really take the audience out of the moment and spoil the illusion of the film.

Studio time is costly: A modest, entry-level production sound kit can be rented for $75 a day. An ADR studio can easily cost that per hour. You could certainly build your own DIY ADR booth, but you certainly wouldn't be saving any money there.

Performing ADR is Difficult: At the best of times, it is a real challenge for actors to duplicate a performance in ADR, let alone match synch. This can be made far more difficult if they're working with poorly recorded guide audio, which brings me to the next point.

You'll still need a Production Sound Recordist if you want useable guide audio: If the guide audio is garbled, unintelligible, badly distorted, or excessively roomy (as with an on-camera mic), then it becomes far more difficult to catch synch during ADR. If the actors improvise or depart from the script at all, then they'll need to know exactly what they said.

100% ADR = 100% foley: On low-budget productions, it is often acceptable to rely on the production sound for most of the foley sound, reinforcing the track only when necessary. If everything's being ADR's, then you'll have a big hole in the track where all the footsteps and cloth movement would otherwise be, and that means a whole lot of foley.

I'm not saying that you can't make your film in the way you describe, I just want you to know that it will be neither cheaper nor easier that way. If you can find the right production sound person, you'll actually save yourself a fortune.
 
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Hey, that sounds great El Director! Can I see some of your short movies?
I was thinking doing the same thing...
I want to record the sound on-set with the on-camera microphone so I will have a "scratch track", and then it will be easy to syncronise the re-recorded sounds....
However how did you manage to record the other sounds - ambiental sounds, foot-steps, various noises,etc????
What do you do if an actor moves farther from the camera in a scene while he is talking? Do you put the actor to move away from the mic or do you adjust the sound using various filters?
What if some scenes happen in different kind of places - in cave, on a street in a large or small room...DO you use filters to alter the voices and the other sounds?
 
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You guys are crazy. To me, the quickest way to ruin a movie and the actor's performance is to ADR it, especially on an indie budget level. Even good ADR done by the pros is still noticeable. Name one modern movie that is entirely ADR'd that is good.

As a sound man and director, I go to great lengths to capture the moment, in the moment for the audio and visuals. It's totally worth it and definitely easier and cheaper in the long run.
 
Name one modern movie that is entirely ADR'd that is good.
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The Star Wars movies are 80% ADR.

However how did you manage to record the other sounds - ambiental sounds, foot-steps, various noises,etc????
What do you do if an actor moves farther from the camera in a scene while he is talking? Do you put the actor to move away from the mic or do you adjust the sound using various filters?
What if some scenes happen in different kind of places - in cave, on a street in a large or small room...DO you use filters to alter the voices and the other sounds?
Click to expand...
Making it sound good is all about the mixing. Vegas was created as an audio editor, so it's capabilities work great for me. I have a library that I get my ambient sounds from. For the other sound effects, it's all about being creative. I have a couple different texture bins that I can use for gravel, pavement, grass etc... It's just a matter of training yourself to hear how a sound "sounds" rather than what it is. Try watching a movie with your eyes closed. You'll be able to start picking out how the sounds are accomplished. Sometimes you'll even have to mix a few sounds together. As for volume, sometimes I'll move the actor, other times I'll lower the volume on the clip. Whatever you do, always have a constant tone track.

Here's the opening scene to my next feature that we used as a proof of concept to get money. When we do the actual film this time, yes, we'll have an audio guy, but this vid was done with the techniques I mentioned. I used reverb to get a nice echo in the room at the end. The ambient city sounds came from my library. http://starspictures.ning.com/video/rise-of-the-beastproof-of
I know some people will disagree with me, but even though I'll be using an audio guy, his role will be secondary to the camera. My actors know and expect there to be some ADR. It's in their contract.
 
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El Director said:
For the shorts and my first feature, I bought a cheap shotgun mic for $60. I cut the film using the audio from the on camera mic as a refernce track. After the movie was cut (minus the sound of course) I burned it to DVD and had my actors come over to watch the film (one at a time). Everytime we'd come to their line, I'd pause, rewind, and play it again for them as often as they needed. I'd then hit record on the camera and have them say the line into the mic (which is hooked into the camera at this point).
Click to expand...

I didn't have time to set this sort of thing up to try to save some dialog, before the principle people disappeared. Otherwise I would have noticed straight off the words coming out of the mouths, was different than the script... how did that happen... I wonder...

If I need to do Abysmal Dialog Replacement, I'll setup something like this to play loops, maybe even put in 3 beeps...

On the other hand, in a completely different universe I made mention of a film from the 60's, "Putney Swope"(1969). I looked it up just to check the date, and noticed that the 'dialog' of the principle character was 'completely replaced' by the Director... Rober Downey Sr.... a white dude... for the actor, Arnold Johnson, a black dude... That I think beats out Orson Welles who was inclined to replace 'some' dialog with his own voice...
 
I would also advice to record sound on set as good as possible.

A DOP ... has an assistant
A director ... has an assistant
A producer... has an assistant
A artdirector... has an assistant
A lightguy....has an assistant
And even a runner has an assistant

So to have the best set sound.... get TWO soundguys and maybe even THREE (sometimes 2 boom operators are needed).

If you have good soundguys, you will have very good location sound (set sound). Let them be involved during pre-production. If a location is very nice looking, but next to it is a continuous disturbing rumble sound of airplanes, helicopters, grasmowers, drills, boats, dogs and babies crying... Choose another location...simple as that.
Image = the size of the screen
Sound = 360° and 75 miles

ADR can be usefull when realy needed. But don't think ADR is something like "ow, look ADR exists, poo poo of the sound guy"
 
ADR can be usefull when realy needed. But don't think ADR is something like "ow, look ADR exists, poo poo of the sound guy"
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That was never my thought while doing ADR. However, if you don't have the money for sound people, and you don't have another location, or a passing airplane ruins the magic take, or if you're just getting into filmmaking, ADR is a great way to go. And if you learn how to do great ADR when you get into filmmaking, it's another tool for your tool belt, just as an audio guy is.
 
El Director said:
The Star Wars movies are 80% ADR.
Click to expand...

I said good movie... And that was by necessity, not choice.

And foreign films will ADR all the time, and their audiences are used to it, and lot's of dubbed films, but rarely is the lip-sync even close, and I really don't think an american audience will accept that easily nowadays, but maybe I'm just a purist.
 
El Director said:
Here's the opening scene to my next feature that we used as a proof of concept to get money. When we do the actual film this time, yes, we'll have an audio guy, but this vid was done with the techniques I mentioned. I used reverb to get a nice echo in the room at the end. The ambient city sounds came from my library. http://starspictures.ning.com/video/rise-of-the-beastproof-of
I know some people will disagree with me, but even though I'll be using an audio guy, his role will be secondary to the camera. My actors know and expect there to be some ADR. It's in their contract.
Click to expand...

Sorry, not to be a jerk, but it does not sound 'full' nor does the dialog sound real. Without even knowing, I could totally tell that it's ADR'd and I think it really suffers as a result. There are many turns of the head and nuanced movements that you would hear had it been recorded on set. The track sounds very flat and like it was recorded in a vocal booth. But the biggest thing is the performance- it lacks the intensity that they have on screen.

If it would come out just as good, and cheaper to record it after the fact, don't you think the big indies and hollywood studios would do it and get a $200/day sound crew instead of a $3000/day one? Yes, they would.

It might be a matter of opinion, but IMO you're shooting your foot off not to get good audio on set as much as you can.
 
I appreciate your input, but it sounded great in the theater, and it got me the money to make the movie, so it served it's purpose.
-- And I happen to like Star Wars ;)
 
I can always tell ADR sound. Even when I was a kid I'd always call it "Hey they dubbed that line!" It takes more work to fake an audio track than to just do it right the first time. While you may save money paying for a sound guy, you make everyone else pay by doing ghetto ADR into a camera take after take - and it will never really be perfect. You could spend some or your own time and train someone to operate a boom and get better results than trying to make a 'studio' recording sound like the location. If you don't have money for a real Foley person then you are in the same boat as having no sound person on location. Just get that mic right above their heads, pointing at their mouth, and out of the shot.

Anyway - at least test your theory out before you do a whole shoot with no sound planned. Get the actors to try your method on some test shots first. Then if it is as good as you imagine it will be go for it. Usually people plan to shoot with sound, then ADR if it is absolutely necessary.
 
El Director said:
I appreciate your input, but it sounded great in the theater, and it got me the money to make the movie, so it served it's purpose.
-- And I happen to like Star Wars ;)
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holy cow.
I decided to just take a look.
I couldnt even make it 25 seconds with that shakycam camera work,
and that was on a 5 inch size video I couldnt even IMAGINE what that would
look like on a big screen.

The footsteps sounded fine though ;)
 
Tim Joy said:
I said good movie... And that was by necessity, not choice.

And foreign films will ADR all the time, and their audiences are used to it, and lot's of dubbed films, but rarely is the lip-sync even close, and I really don't think an american audience will accept that easily nowadays, but maybe I'm just a purist.
Click to expand...


Hey they dubbed Arnold in Hercules! You could barely tell.
 
holy cow.
I decided to just take a look.
I couldnt even make it 25 seconds with that shakycam camera work,
and that was on a 5 inch size video I couldnt even IMAGINE what that would
look like on a big screen.

The footsteps sounded fine though ;)
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, forgot to warn you guys that we're going for the "Bourne" the look. This was a little over the top, and I'll turn down the shake slightly for the actual film. hehe.

If you let the vid load and jump to the last third, we tone down the shake and there's the ADR.
 
El Director said:
The Star Wars movies are 80% ADR.
Click to expand...
Elaborate special effects and set design will often necessitate a lot of ADR. Wind machines and pyrotechnics can obviously compromise production sound, but set construction can also be an important factor. For example, characters may be walking across metal plating, but the actors could very well be walking on painted plywood. In that case, any lines that have footsteps on top of them must be replaced.

What I'm getting at is that most of the ADR in Star Wars was motivated by technical necessity, rather than by an effort to save money during production. Derek Ball and Ken Nightingall (production mixer and boom op', respectively) recorded the production sound for Star Wars, and it's a credit to their combined skill that as much as 20% of the production track was used.

However, I do not think the Star Wars example really illustrates your point, El Director. The ADR for Star Wars was not recorded with an improvised studio on a low budget. Yes, ADR is a often a technical necessity, and many big-budget films replace a substantial portion of their production dialogue. But to use ADR as your "plan A" is not a wise choice, in my opinion.
 
Simply put: If you don't have the money to get the production audio correct, then you REALLY don't have the money to do it in post.

And yes, the "proof of concept" sounded like garbage honestly. Sync, reverb, and performances all had dead giveaways. Would your "friends" notice? Of course not. Would a random stranger notice? Many would, but even those that couldn't identify it would definitely know something was "off" about the sound and it would take them out of the movie.
 
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