Liam Hall
Veteran
Lol. Then more than a few of us on here need a swift dose of imodium!
All NEW super duper camera coming.. (yawn)
- Thread starter starcentral
- Start date
Lol. Then more than a few of us on here need a swift dose of imodium!
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
The bit I find annoying.. especially Sony.. is that beyond specs the cameras dont really have any design elements that make them nice to use.
Im pretty happy with the 4k/10bit/Slog sony codec.
But name me one camera, maybe the too heavy Amera, that is not a complete pigs ear of a bit of design.
I was taught to shoot sequences a certain way.. 'wide, mid, tight'
The kitchen, the man chopping carrots, the carrots, his face. and probably OTS from his head to the carrots.
I was also like to know focus and exposure, (and audio) to enable me to do this.
I also (coming from stills) like that shallow DOF look, and a fat gradable file, that is not typically present in a 1/3 camcorder.
So what manufac makes a camera that is simple to shoot 'man and carrots'?... NONE.
NO ONE HELPS ME SHOOT "MAN AND CARROTS".
'Man and Carrots' is the simplest most basic fooking film there is. And it is still horrid to shoot with any camera that exists.
The C300ii might be closest.. maybe.. if I add a $23k lens.
--
Actually the thing most lacking is nice zooms that are portable and affordable... probably mated to a nice M4/3 camera. (S35 makes everything too big!)
--
So yes I will be excited when someone launches the camera that helps me shoot the most basic film there is.
S
Im pretty happy with the 4k/10bit/Slog sony codec.
But name me one camera, maybe the too heavy Amera, that is not a complete pigs ear of a bit of design.
I was taught to shoot sequences a certain way.. 'wide, mid, tight'
The kitchen, the man chopping carrots, the carrots, his face. and probably OTS from his head to the carrots.
I was also like to know focus and exposure, (and audio) to enable me to do this.
I also (coming from stills) like that shallow DOF look, and a fat gradable file, that is not typically present in a 1/3 camcorder.
So what manufac makes a camera that is simple to shoot 'man and carrots'?... NONE.
NO ONE HELPS ME SHOOT "MAN AND CARROTS".
'Man and Carrots' is the simplest most basic fooking film there is. And it is still horrid to shoot with any camera that exists.
The C300ii might be closest.. maybe.. if I add a $23k lens.
--
Actually the thing most lacking is nice zooms that are portable and affordable... probably mated to a nice M4/3 camera. (S35 makes everything too big!)
--
So yes I will be excited when someone launches the camera that helps me shoot the most basic film there is.
S
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morgan_moore
Major Contributor
The FS5. Good for man and carrots?
Well no usable zoom lens will cover the range.
Off centre focus check?
RGB WFM to understand colour?
Usable in the sun? (not the external screen, and im sure the EVF doesnt have the res)
4.3 screen needed showing me the image and my WFM/Sound levels while I can still see my frame
This is simple simple stuff. Current cams are not designed by operators, not even 5%
S
Well no usable zoom lens will cover the range.
Off centre focus check?
RGB WFM to understand colour?
Usable in the sun? (not the external screen, and im sure the EVF doesnt have the res)
4.3 screen needed showing me the image and my WFM/Sound levels while I can still see my frame
This is simple simple stuff. Current cams are not designed by operators, not even 5%
S
starcentral
Veteran
Well the FS700 came with some stock lens 18-200mm I believe, and the FS7 a 28-135mm lens. For the money, it sounds pretty reasonable really.
What else are we expecting that isn't good enough to shoot man and carrots?
What else are we expecting that isn't good enough to shoot man and carrots?
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
The 28-135 lens is not wide enough to shoot 'room'
the 18 fly by wire focus means the lens is not usable for manual focus.
the AF of the camera(s) is not good enough to be trusted.
The screens on the cameras are not good enough to tell if the AF is trustable (ergo it is not trustable)
18S35 or 28FF are really only just wide enough - but Id just buy that (ideally Id want 16S35 or 24FFrame)
S
the 18 fly by wire focus means the lens is not usable for manual focus.
the AF of the camera(s) is not good enough to be trusted.
The screens on the cameras are not good enough to tell if the AF is trustable (ergo it is not trustable)
18S35 or 28FF are really only just wide enough - but Id just buy that (ideally Id want 16S35 or 24FFrame)
S
starcentral
Veteran
So as others a few have said, maybe it's more about improving the cost of lenses than it is the actual camera - although FF can solve a lot of problems in that department.
Perhaps a successor to the RED Raven will be full frame, now that would probably be a huge hit. That nearly 2x crop factor is killer IMO.
Perhaps a successor to the RED Raven will be full frame, now that would probably be a huge hit. That nearly 2x crop factor is killer IMO.
Spartacus
Veteran
My 2C:
I can't put it in technical terms, but there are three cameras (or systems) out there, that I would like to own one of.
It's either the F35, the Alexa or a RED for me.
No surprise here I guess.
Most professional stuff shot on these cams, will meet my (subjective) inner standard
of what I perceive as "digital film".
So until I can get the exact same feeling or visual sensation (since I can't put it in technical terms) from a camera I can actually afford without thinking twice,
yes Sir, I will be exited about the announcement of a new super-duper camera.
That, said any larger sensor camera being sold today is good enough for me for projects, that don't have to look
like "digital film", docs, TV stuff, corporate aso.
I can't put it in technical terms, but there are three cameras (or systems) out there, that I would like to own one of.
It's either the F35, the Alexa or a RED for me.
No surprise here I guess.
Most professional stuff shot on these cams, will meet my (subjective) inner standard
of what I perceive as "digital film".
So until I can get the exact same feeling or visual sensation (since I can't put it in technical terms) from a camera I can actually afford without thinking twice,
yes Sir, I will be exited about the announcement of a new super-duper camera.
That, said any larger sensor camera being sold today is good enough for me for projects, that don't have to look
like "digital film", docs, TV stuff, corporate aso.
In reality, yes. In practical terms people will always want more. Just because they can.
Nirv
Carbonite Member
I shot Man & Carrots back in the day with a PD150. My FS7 urinates on the PD150 on every level bar having a parfocal lens. I crave the zoom, focus and reframe simplicity of those bygone days as the digital focus zoom just can't compare.
Now that the FS7 has centre crop you can cheaply buy a B4 ENG lens + MTF adapter (not cheap) and relive the glory days. £2k should do it.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
I don't know the PD150 but I do own an EX1 and kind of miss it more and more - or think I should use it for more than BTS.
Even the EX1 has a lens that one can focus with.. the 18-200 is unusable in comparison.
Really Sony are moving backward from cameras like the EX1.. which at least feels like it was some form of attempt to make a usable tool for a working professional.
With larger chips the stakes get higher as focus is harder et al so we need more and better tools to keep focus.
So the camera Im interested in is probably a professional 4/3 camera which I think would offer a good compromise between look and usability.
The DVX200 (?) seems close if one could slip on a fast voiglander lens for some beauty when not using a usable zoom and record 10bit.. of course you cannot do either of those things with the DVX.
S
Even the EX1 has a lens that one can focus with.. the 18-200 is unusable in comparison.
Really Sony are moving backward from cameras like the EX1.. which at least feels like it was some form of attempt to make a usable tool for a working professional.
With larger chips the stakes get higher as focus is harder et al so we need more and better tools to keep focus.
So the camera Im interested in is probably a professional 4/3 camera which I think would offer a good compromise between look and usability.
The DVX200 (?) seems close if one could slip on a fast voiglander lens for some beauty when not using a usable zoom and record 10bit.. of course you cannot do either of those things with the DVX.
S
Samuel H
Major Contributor
All of this makes no sense to me: the benefits of a bigger sensor in terms of image quality (DoF, low light, DR) greatly outweight all the downsides you all mention.
And I thought most people thought the same... until I saw this chart last week. It comes from a Sony presentation. I find it absolutely incredible that 85% of the professional video market is still going to small-sensor cameras, but there you go.
They use a weird definition of "pro video camera", but they have no incentive to present misleading data here: it's a slide from the a7S II presentation.
And I thought most people thought the same... until I saw this chart last week. It comes from a Sony presentation. I find it absolutely incredible that 85% of the professional video market is still going to small-sensor cameras, but there you go.
They use a weird definition of "pro video camera", but they have no incentive to present misleading data here: it's a slide from the a7S II presentation.
Nah, it makes sense. A very small portion of the market is the narrative/film-like shooting. Most of the video is for weddings, events, streaming and corporate and the only LFS types that are really getting a foot in there are the A7s, GH4, C100 I & II and C300 MKI. As many have mentioned, once Sony and/or Panasonic and/or JVC and/or Canon releases something similar to Z100 with a 1" BSI sensor (a la RX10II, but with a better/bigger zoom), then the switch from the sub 2/3rd will commence. And even then, Z300/330 type will be quite capable in many instances.
PS. DVX200 will do some numbers too but may become an in-between camera.
PS. DVX200 will do some numbers too but may become an in-between camera.
Nirv
Carbonite Member
Ever shot a documentary? Getting stuff in focus in demanding environments that cannot be reshot trumps DoF.
In an ideal world I could afford £20+ on an S35 parfocal zoom but I can't but I suspect I wouldn't want to take such a lens into many demanding environments. You're kidding yourself if you think a DSLR zoom and porking around with the focus zoom is up to the job.
roxics
Veteran
I can only tell you what I want personally. A wishlist.
I want a digital camera that can fully emulate the look of various filmstocks throughout the decades. Kodachrome, Eastman Color, EXR, Vision, etc. without looking like some cheap digital knockoff.
Something with a full frame organic style sensor that captures each color for each photosite rather than bayer pattern.
Something that responds to light the way celluloid does.
Maybe it uses individual graphite layers for each color at the distance of wavelength that each color falls. I don't know.
High enough resolution at ful frame that an in camera crop to super35 or super16mm is possible at lower resolutions that still produces a 2K output at super16 size.
All knobs and switches, no menus. Including a knob for frame rate that I can ramp up or down on the fly.
A record button, but also an analog trigger (like on an xbox controller) where I can pull on that thing and it ramps from 0fps to the framerate specified on the speed knob. Flashframes and all. Just for fun.
Some mirrorless style full frame mount with a short flange to focal distance.
Couple headphones jacks with independant volume knobs for each and mono/stereo switches.
Couple super clean XLR jacks with phantom power and gain knobs.
Built in shock mounted XY mics that record to tracks independant of the XLRs.
Aluminum or magnesium body in camo green.
I want a digital camera that can fully emulate the look of various filmstocks throughout the decades. Kodachrome, Eastman Color, EXR, Vision, etc. without looking like some cheap digital knockoff.
Something with a full frame organic style sensor that captures each color for each photosite rather than bayer pattern.
Something that responds to light the way celluloid does.
Maybe it uses individual graphite layers for each color at the distance of wavelength that each color falls. I don't know.
High enough resolution at ful frame that an in camera crop to super35 or super16mm is possible at lower resolutions that still produces a 2K output at super16 size.
All knobs and switches, no menus. Including a knob for frame rate that I can ramp up or down on the fly.
A record button, but also an analog trigger (like on an xbox controller) where I can pull on that thing and it ramps from 0fps to the framerate specified on the speed knob. Flashframes and all. Just for fun.
Some mirrorless style full frame mount with a short flange to focal distance.
Couple headphones jacks with independant volume knobs for each and mono/stereo switches.
Couple super clean XLR jacks with phantom power and gain knobs.
Built in shock mounted XY mics that record to tracks independant of the XLRs.
Aluminum or magnesium body in camo green.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Well that may work for you but basically hopeless for actuality.
Nirv
Carbonite Member
News gathering and vérité style filmmaking would be a real hoot with primes...
Sam Scoggins
Well-known member
An all new super duper camera is just coming out ................... it's called the iPhone 6S.
Greg Smith
Veteran
It's doable if not exactly pleasant with a turret. Wonder when we'll see one re-introduced on a video camera? (I thought it might be a Digital Bolex feature when it came out, but they decided not to.)
- Greg
(I posted the roman numerals, since it's a little easier to respond that way).
(I) Film stock emulations and LUT's are too numerous to be included by the manufacturer. If one wanted to upload them, however, many will allow it. Still, it's best left for post, especially when shooting Raw or Log.
(II) That is sort of almost there, as many cameras nowadays oversample for the output. For 4K, a 17.6 MPX readout should suffice regardless. Sony's A7RII does it from 15 MPX and all for $3,200. DVX 200 does it from 13.5 MPX (in 24 fps). At this stage, it's more important to increase the color bit rate.
(III) That should be programmable on many a camera, provided it has enough bit depth.
(IV) As cameras load up on features, that is the least likely. What one gets instead is a wireless link to an tablet/laptop with a touch screen, where most menu options can be changed instantly.
It's cheaper to make the small sensors better because that's where the gigantic smartphone market overlaps into the photo/video industry. There are bridge models already with an 80x zoom and priced well under $1,000. A pro product should be able to find the balance with a 1" or an MFT size. It's just that DVX 200 has certain limitations based on the available technology. Its next generation - or its rival - should have a better zoom at the same price point.