Alan Roberts (BBC) tests the XF300 - 305

Whats the point of comparing ha and hg? The main point was if people shot with an ex1 and had to choose a codec, avcam is more robust than xdcam ex at lower bitrate. Nobody shoots in ha or hg as theres no 24p in ha or hg

Theres no point in your questions when the final image dictates the answer. when you yourself say xdcam is **** or avchd is ****. Why waste tine arguing?
 
robertrogoz said:
...So mathematically you should be comparing HA or HG modes of the AG-HMR10, not the PH, as XDCAM EX is the lowest of the XDCAM by Sony...
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Against my better judgment, I'll bite... what cameras in the sub-$8k price range does Sony offer in the regular XDCam line? According to B&H, the cheapest is still almost $15k. Most are between $20k and $45k. The EX3 is $8,200 and the EX1 is $6,200. There are NO existing or announced AVCHD/AVCCam cameras over $6k. The test is valid... we're talking about competing products. You can go on and on about how XDCam EX is the lowest of the XDCam line by Sony... but AVCHD/AVCCam is the lowest of the AVC line by Panasonic.

Let me get this straight... you're complaining that a codec used in sub $6k cameras is being compared to a codec used in cameras in the $6k-$9k range and not the $30k range? Ummmm... really?
 
LuckyStudio 13 said:
What market segment/s you think Canon is targeting with these two Cameras ?
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ENG, documentary, reality & event I would say are the primary targets. Other markets (narrative, sports, wildlife, stock) can be well served by this camera, too, since it's extremely versatile and compact.

Personally, I shoot a lot of BTS video for high-end productions & clients as well as a few documentary travel shows & extreme sports, so this camera is practically made for me (and that's also why I seem to be a real big fan of it). To have a hand-holdable camera with 18x lens with 3 OIS modes that I can easily carry on a plane that shoots 422 @ 50mpbs on cheap compact flash with more dynamic range & resolution (it would appear) than an EX series camcorder and equivalent practical low-light performance... well, it really hits the sweet spot for a lot of my work. I know for many people on this forum that Canon's XF line doesn't cut the mustard for the price (given the type of footage they like to shoot), but there is no perfect camera for every situation.
 
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Maybe it is just me but for longer form of shooting people would rather have a longer recording media like tape on the canon XH series cameras.

IMHO Canon video division is just merely playing catch up (4:2:2, tapeless, waveform ..etc) with the rest of the industry with this camera. Not to mention the wrong and incredibly steep price point for an evolutionary cam while Panasonic and Sony are racing to introduce the next new generation cameras with bigger cine sensor. You are right,there is no one perfect cam for everyone, but over $6k for a *previous generation* cam like these, is incredibly difficult to digest.

cowpunk52 said:
ENG, documentary, reality & event I would say are the primary targets. Other markets (narrative, sports, wildlife, stock) can be well served by this camera, too, since it's extremely versatile and compact.

Personally, I shoot a lot of BTS video for high-end productions & clients as well as a few documentary travel shows & extreme sports, so this camera is practically made for me (and that's also why I seem to be a real big fan of it). To have a hand-holdable camera with 18x lens with 3 OIS modes that I can easily carry on a plane that shoots 422 @ 50mpbs on cheap compact flash with more dynamic range & resolution (it would appear) than an EX series camcorder and equivalent practical low-light performance... well, it really hits the sweet spot for a lot of my work. I know for many people on this forum that Canon's XF line doesn't cut the mustard for the price (given the type of footage they like to shoot), but there is no perfect camera for every situation.
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LuckyStudio 13 said:
Maybe it is just me but for longer form of shooting people would rather have a longer recording media like tape on the canon XH series cameras.
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XH series maxes out at 60 minutes of recording on DV tape. Two 32gig compact flash cards will give you more than 2 1/2 hours of recording at full resolution on the XF cameras. If you bump down to HDV quality, you'll get more than 5 hours.

LuckyStudio 13 said:
IMHO Canon video division is just merely playing catch up (4:2:2, tapeless, waveform ..etc) with the rest of the industry with this camera. Not to mention the wrong and incredibly steep price point for an evolutionary cam while Panasonic and Sony are racing to introduce the next new generation cameras with bigger cine sensor. You are right,there is no one perfect cam for everyone, but over $6k for a *previous generation* cam like these, is incredibly difficult to digest.
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Again, I totally understand - Canon is always last to party, but typically they bring out one of, if not the highest quality product possible. But what I keep coming back to is that a cine-style camera has very, very little use for the applications I'd be using an XF camera in. I don't think they're playing catch-up as much as they've leap-frogged the existing competition. Saying that this is a "previous generation" cam because it has a sensor that isn't 35mm size is saying that there is no place in current production for anything smaller than that - which I would whole-heartedly disagree with (the bulk of my income comes from shooting cameras on which cinema sized sensors would never fly).

Like I said, it's price point doesn't cut the mustard for many people on this forum give the type of footage many people on dvxuser seem to prefer to shoot (cine-style narrative). To those, I say great - their are a lot of very cheap DSLR's to give you the shallow depth of field you crave. I'm sure that when Canon does release a cine-style camcorder, it will be late & great, and will perform very well in the situations it's meant for.

As to the XF cameras, no other camera in existence offers such a unique combination of features, much less with this level of overall IQ - especially for the price point it's coming in at. If you don't find it useful at it's given price point, then don't buy it - but what's the use in complaining about it when other people/businesses/productions do need the features it offers and are perfectly fine with the price?
 
I am not complaining but just trying to muster the rationale behind these cam. At tht pricepoint won't I be better to get the A1 and a more longevity and flexible product like the Aja ki pro or nanoflash ?
 
LuckyStudio 13 said:
I am not complaining but just trying to muster the rationale behind these cam. At tht pricepoint won't I be better to get the A1 and a more longevity and flexible product like the Aja ki pro or nanoflash ?
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But an A1 w/nanoflash or ki pro isn't going to be as easy to carry around shooting what he needs to shoot as this new XF series. As just a competitor to the EX1, this looks appealing, if only because of 4:2:2 and cheaper media. Canon obviously must think there is a market, and I bet there is.
 
There may be market but I don't see the same excitement as in their HDSLR line. Oh well.. Canon kind of fell in to this revolution and I'm sure they will find a way to screw up their momentum.

I expect Pana to answer with the AF100 but I expect major limitations so they can protect their P2 line of cameras and with Red Scarlet on continuos delay, I don't expect a major shift to large sensor "video" cameras in the short term. I hope I'm proven wrong.
 
LuckyStudio 13 said:
I am not complaining but just trying to muster the rationale behind these cam. At tht pricepoint won't I be better to get the A1 and a more longevity and flexible product like the Aja ki pro or nanoflash ?
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Well, even with that combination, you'll give up your mobility and ergonomics and you won't get the resolution, improved lens, dynamic range, improved low-light capability, variable frame rates, 4 inch LCD, manual lens with hard stops, 3 modes of OIS, linear PCM audio, etc, etc, etc...

So, I'm not really sure that you'd be better off at all ;)
 
I'm in the process of looking for a good camera for a documentary that we're in pre-production for. We considered using the 7D and 5D, but decided against it. I really feel that having a strong camera with all the desirable amenities that we take for granted, with a 7D as b-roll is our best bet.

Couldn't have come at a better time.

I'm going to input this into our budget and see how much it affects it - if we're able to do it, this camera seems to be perfect for what I need.

Kegan
 
i know we wont know for sure until more samples are posted ,but with the 50mb/s bitrate will this camera be a significant amount better than an hmc 150
i know that avchd is supposed to be more efficient than mpeg 2 ,but with the higher bitrate will it be better?
 
Regarding low light, someone in another forum found +21dB to be ISO1000 which translates to ISO90 at 0dB and ISO45 at the lowest gain setting (-6dB). This is two stops slower than a typical 1080p 2/3" camera or a low resolution 1/3" camera, so it sounds reasonable.
 
The lux rating is 0,08lux 60i +33dB 1/4 shutter f1.6 which is:

106lux 60i -6dB 1/60 f1.6 = 13lux at 18dB higher compared to 3lux for a low resolution 1/3" CCD camera. 2 stops again.
 
I predict the timeline AF-100 in Dec, a Sony counter strike by NAB or Fall 2011, Red Scarlet S35 NAB 2012(available Spring/Summer 2013 (after all the red one owners orders being fulfilled) and a Canon 5D or 7D by NAB 2013. What's interesting to see is what all the 35mm DOF adapter vendors are going to be peddling once the HDSLR market begins to recess. Seems like right now they are too busy building and selling HDSLR accessories that might not be able to fit the next generation big sensor cams.
 
LuckyStudio 13 said:
What's interesting to see is what all the 35mm DOF adapter vendors are going to be peddling once the HDSLR market begins to recess. Seems like right now they are too busy building and selling HDSLR accessories that might not be able to fit the next generation big sensor cams.
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They'll probably move to the low-cost cinema support & accessory market: follow focus, rails, rigs, sliders - maybe eventually stabilizers, jibs, etc...

But I think that low-cost 35mm adapters will still have a market for at least 4-5 more years, even if it's mostly for small palm-corder type cameras.
 
I read the test report and looked at the manual on the XF cameras. There is a lot of creative image control built into these models if one takes the time to learn the menus. Unlike the DSLR's the XF's show virtually no aliasing and moire at 1080p. Much cleaner higher resolution video. Canon got this one right.
 
Mike Harvey said:
Against my better judgment, I'll bite... what cameras in the sub-$8k price range does Sony offer in the regular XDCam line? According to B&H, the cheapest is still almost $15k. Most are between $20k and $45k. The EX3 is $8,200 and the EX1 is $6,200. There are NO existing or announced AVCHD/AVCCam cameras over $6k. The test is valid... we're talking about competing products. You can go on and on about how XDCam EX is the lowest of the XDCam line by Sony... but AVCHD/AVCCam is the lowest of the AVC line by Panasonic.

Let me get this straight... you're complaining that a codec used in sub $6k cameras is being compared to a codec used in cameras in the $6k-$9k range and not the $30k range? Ummmm... really?
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My point is that if title of the article states: XDCAM EX vs. AVCCAM - it means comparing codecs not cameras. XDCAM goes to 50Mbs, AVCHD tops off at 24. If the article would compare EX1 with HMC150 I would call it a valid test, but as a codec comparison it compares the lowest of the XDCAM with the highest of the AVCCAM. I would like to see a split screen with EX1 and HMC150 side by side for 30-60 second shot in a couple of different lighting situation. I would also LOVE to see how the quality holds up after putting both fragments through some real post production, bot some frame grabs of possibly P or B frames of the long GOP. And no- AVCCAM is not the lowest of Panasonic- there is nothing else in this category.
 
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