aja cion shipping now

good lawd. I like that integrated IR Cut filter. just a tad confused it does DCI 4K 120fps internal?
 
What a tremendous looking camera.
There really are some incredible offerings at around the $10,000 price range these days.
 
Gillvane said:
What's a few that are comparable at this price point? The Canon C500 is a lot more expensive at $16,000.
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Probably referring to the Sony FS7.

Love the look of this camera, might use it on a feature down the road. Pretty much the perfect specs for that shooting environment.
 
Well, depending on how you look at it, it's 80% of an Alexa for 20% of the price.

And although it has 12 stops instead of 14, it has a feature that Arri does not, global shutter.
 
combatentropy said:
Well, depending on how you look at it, it's 80% of an Alexa for 20% of the price.

And although it has 12 stops instead of 14, it has a feature that Arri does not, global shutter.
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80%? Sorry I don’t see it. Yes it does depend how you look at it.

Arri vs AJA first timers in camera making
14.5 stops vs “12” stops.
ISO 800 vs ISO320
Arri Raw vs Prores
Very clean images vs fixed pattern noise and noisy overall low light footage, if we take the blackmagic as example.
Great highlight management vs black sun
Should I really go on?
I don’t see the 80% at all. Yes global shutter but you will see the fixed pattern noise and black sun more often than any rolling shutter in the Alexa, which is basically not there.
The Cion is basically a Blackmagic in a better body. How can it be more than that?
 
Sttratos said:
80%?
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I think it's better than you make it out to be.

Fixed-pattern noise is just that: noise in a pattern that doesn't move. "A camera's internal electronics just has to know the pattern and it can subtract this noise away to reveal the true image" (http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/image-noise.htm). In fact, the specimens shown look more like what that article calls "banding noise," which is "highly camera-dependent, and is noise which is introduced by the camera when it reads data from the digital sensor." Read the article.

Arri Raw vs Prores
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Really? The Cion can't do raw? Did you read the specs?

black sun
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I would hold off judgment until more footage is released. Didn't Blackmagic lessen or remove this problem with firmware? Is it maybe another camera issue, instead of a sensor issue? Blackmagic themselves said all CMOS sensors have this problem, yet most cameras somehow take care of it.

When Jon Thorn posted sample footage, he said, hey, look, no black sun.

sun.jpg

Your criticism seems weird, considering the great footage that's so easy to find if you just search Vimeo for Blackmagic 4K or Ursa footage. This shot seems to show decent dynamic range, considering that they're shooting the Blackmagic Production Camera toward the sun:

highlights.jpg

And here is some night footage from the Blackmagic camera. Maybe it's no Sony A7S. But it's not full of noise, is it?

 
combatentropy said:
I think it's better than you make it out to be.

Fixed-pattern noise is just that: noise in a pattern that doesn't move. "A camera's internal electronics just has to know the pattern and it can subtract this noise away to reveal the true image" (http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/image-noise.htm). In fact, the specimens shown look more like what that article calls "banding noise," which is "highly camera-dependent, and is noise which is introduced by the camera when it reads data from the digital sensor." Read the article.
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Regardless FPN is very distracting. There are several examples from the Blackmagic camera online showing the problem and it’s a big problem for a professional camera. If the Cion has the same sensor chances are it has the same problem and it is a serious problem for a $9000 camera.



combatentropy said:
Really? The Cion can't do raw? Did you read the specs?
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Yes I know RAW was promised. But as far as I know it can’t record it and needs an external recorder. But none can do it yet. I only count features that are working now. I don’t count on future promises. CD still has not fulfilled all promises they made for the 7Q at release, have they? Now they actually released a new version instead with the 7Q+. Sony also promised their FZ zoom would work with auto with the F5 and F55 . Now they are discontinuing the same lens and it never worked as promised. I don’t count on promises.


combatentropy said:
Didn't Blackmagic lessen or remove this problem with firmware? Is it maybe another camera issue, instead of a sensor issue? Blackmagic themselves said all CMOS sensors have this problem, yet most cameras somehow take care of it.

When Jon Thorn posted sample footage, he said, hey, look, no black sun.
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Jon said that? Strange. Because there is or at least there was black sun in the demo footage with the blonde and African American models. They tried to cut it off and leave it off frame but you could still see it in the corner. It’s there.




combatentropy said:
And here is some night footage from the Blackmagic camera. Maybe it's no Sony A7S. But it's not full of noise, is it?

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This is not noisy? It’s very noisy. If this was shot with the Alexa it would have been very clean. Hence why I don’t see your claim that the Cion is 80% of an Alexa. Not at all.


combatentropy said:
I would hold off judgment until more footage is released.
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Yes you are right and I’m basing most of it on the Blackmagic because they use the same sensor. But how long will we have to wait for proper footage? AJA should have hired a competent DP to shoot something worth anything and put online by now. The camera is shipping since December. Look at how much FS7 footage there are out there and where is Cion? People won’t wait forever and the longer AJA waits to release something the more people will speculate. The big question is why is AJA holding back from releasing a proper demo? Do they really expect people will just dump $9000 on a camera by a company who never made cameras before, sight unseen or with just a couple of random tests here and there? They have to go after it, if they are interested in selling many of these cameras. This is probably why they have not sold many yet. Unless none of the hundreds of buyers are DVXusers or even have an internet connection.
 
The Cion makes me nervous, in a bad way, and in a good excited way too. I get what both of you guys are saying, Combatentroy and Sttratos.

Just going off specs, the Cion is pretty well set up. Who knows what the other manufacturers will do at NAB, but right now, in that price range no one else offers the combination of global shutter, the crazy awesome connectivity, prores, interchangeable mounts, hfr, even having the P tap right on the body. ND would have been nice, but it's not a deal breaker. How well it all works together will become clearer once more reviews and user footage gets around. Most disappointing to me is the 12 stops of DR, and the base ISO. But the competitors don't have everything the Cion has, either. The FS7's low light and DR are better, but if you want the connectivity or raw, then you have to buy the XDCA for another $2k, and if I was shooting action I'd rather go with the Cion for the global shutter. And I could be mistaken, but I think the Cion will do 4k raw internally at 30fps?

I think it's give and take, and depends on what it's being used for. The color and the noise are still uncertain, and those are some things I'm waiting to see tested; that, and if there will be hfr raw out to the 7Q. But if AJA delivers on what this camera is supposed to be, at $9k !!!, it would easily be an everyday work horse. Even with the 12 stops of DR, as long as you shoot everything within the range of this camera, then it doesn't make sense to spend $100k+ on the XT universe. And I think that's what Combatentropy is getting at. If it works as promised, I think the Cion can serve most needs, maybe not outside shooting or low light, but certainly within a channel it will fulfill most purposes.

Comparing it to the Alexa and other upper model cameras makes sense. I think we're in a transition period for camera technology, a lot of new features are being added, and technology is definitely getting cheaper. I know it's not just the specs, but also the quality of the specs and how they're implemented; and the upper tier cameras definitely are better in the quality department... but still, if you're a big manufacturer, you have to take notice of the new guys on the horizon. I'd say their customer bases are different, so I don't think the big guys are measurably worried about losing market to these cheaper cameras... yet... but when some small-time startups begin making quality content with these cameras, that's going to force the big guys to react. We'll see, but I'm hopeful, and anyway I'm not buying anything until after NAB.
 
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