AJ-HDX100 - check camcorderinfo.com

Re: AJ-HDX100 - check camcorderinfo.com

[quote author=Zim link=board=HDV;num=1108204915;start=30#30 date=02/12/05 at 09:37:51] I can buy 1Gig compactflash cards for $100 or something.[/quote]
Yes, and that's where Panasonic is going to have a marketing issue with consumers. Educating them that CompactFlash is nowhere near the same level of technology as the HD-enabled P2 cards. CompactFlash is low-speed memory -- something like 5 megabytes a second, isn't it? Whereas P2 cards, especially the H series, have to support data transfer rates of 640 megabits (80 megabytes) per second. MUCH more expensive technology. But the consumer sees "1gb = $100, why would 4gb = $2000?"

The answer is, there's a reason a JVC HD1 goes for $2,000 and a VariCam goes for $65,000. A world of difference, much higher class of technology. But it's definitely going to be a marketing challenge for Panasonic to adequately explain to the consumer why these P2 cards cost so much more. It's just a whole different class of technology.
 
Re: AJ-HDX100 - check camcorderinfo.com

$5,000 or they will price a lot of people out. $5,000 to $10,000 is not prosumer
Click to expand...

I tend to agree, but on the other hand this cam would have far superior features to any other "Prosumer" cam on the market, so I would expect it to be significantly higher than the Z1. If they come in anywhere close to the price of the Z1, they will have a world beater, and I would be getting very nervous if I was Sony. If it's not released until 2006, that will give us time to save up ;D. Waiting and not jumping into HDV is going to prove to have been a very wise decision. Now, if I can just get that credit limit raised on that credit card...
 
Re: AJ-HDX100 - check camcorderinfo.com

I hope that Barry has his beta model already, ha, ha.
;D ;D
So when the camera hits the market his new or updated book comes with the camera.
 
Re: AJ-HDX100 - check camcorderinfo.com

[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=HDV;num=1108204915;start=15#24 date=02/12/05 at 06:03:25]The CineAlta images at 1920x1080p, but records at 1440x1080psf.[/quote]

What is 'psf'? Pixel Shift...? Why is it recorded in lower resolution? What exactly is Pixel Shift? The XL/S has it too, right?
 
Re: AJ-HDX100 - check camcorderinfo.com

The palmcorder thing makes me think it will be that star wars camera.
 
Re: AJ-HDX100 - check camcorderinfo.com

Never thought I'd see the day when a DVCproHD camera went for under 10K. Damn!
 
Re: AJ-HDX100 - check camcorderinfo.com

We should have a fund to buy Jarred one of these as soon as they come out for putting up this great website :D.
 
Re: AJ-HDX100 - check camcorderinfo.com

*tries jedi mind trick*

It will be $3400 or an even exchange for your current DVX100A.

;D

Peace
 
Re: AJ-HDX100 - check camcorderinfo.com

[quote author=Shaw link=board=HDV;num=1108204915;start=45#50 date=02/12/05 at 15:26:51]We should have a fund to buy Jarred one of these as soon as they come out for putting up this great website  :D.[/quote]

Thats it.. Mr. Shaw is dvxuser of the month :)
 
Re: AJ-HDX100 - check camcorderinfo.com

[quote author=Pascal Parvex link=board=HDV;num=1108204915;start=30#43 date=02/12/05 at 13:14:19]

What is 'psf'? Pixel Shift...? Why is it recorded in lower resolution? What exactly is Pixel Shift? The XL/S has it too, right?
[/quote]
psf is Sony's notation for "progressive - segmented frame". I believe HDCAM doesn't record progressive-scan, so when they developed the CineAlta with 24p capability, they had to find a way to record it in their interlaced HDCAM format. IINM, what they do is use PAL scanning of 50hz, but slow it down a little to 48hz, then write out the frame in two chunks... hence, it's a "progressive-scan" frame, but "segmented". In the end it doesn't make a lick of difference, what gets imaged is a progressive-scan frame, and it gets written out to tape in such a way that it can be re-imported and viewed as progressive.

Progressive/Segmented Frame has nothing to do with "pixel shift". Pixel Shift is technology developed by Panasonic and used by Canon and Sony to get higher resolution imaging from a lower resolution device. In 3-CCD DV cameras you get much lower color sampling than you do luminance (black/white) sampling. So in "pixel shift", they move the green CCD about a half-pixel to the side. See, the FX1 only has 960-pixel CCD's. You can't get 1440 pixels from 960, that just doesn't work. So by offsetting the green CCD a half pixel to the side, it provides for even more luma sampling than you'd get just from the straight 960 pixels. Half of 960=480, so by adding the CCD halfway between the 960 pixels they pick up another 480 pixels of luma sampling. 960+480=1440, which is what the Sony FX1 images.

As to why it's recorded in a lower resolution, that's a bandwidth issue. All the major HD recording formats record in lesser resolution than the actual frame size: HDCAM is 1440x1080, HDV is 1440x1080, DVCPRO-HD is 1280x1080.
 
Re: AJ-HDX100 - check camcorderinfo.com

[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=HDV;num=1108204915;start=15#15 date=02/11/05 at 23:15:09]
Well, technically, no... I mean, I hate to out-pedant you, but it all depends on how compliant it is with the DVCPRO-HD standard.  DVCPRO-HD is 100 megabits per second, always.  With 8 channels of uncompressed audio.  That's what the format is.[/quote]

Lord knows I don't want to enter a pedantry war, especially with the fantastic and ever-helpful Barry Green. At the same time, it seems to me that a DVCPROHD-encoded 720p24 file on disk is still DVCPROHD video despite being 40Mbps. You may disagree, arguing that the data is only actually DVCPROHD video when it is recorded on tape at 100 Mbps, but that seems somewhat narrow to me, especially when the format was designed to add in duplicate data which is meant to be taken out when the tape is fed into an NLE. To argue that this process suddenly makes the video not DVCPROHD seems odd to me, especially when the format was designed with this process in mind. What kind of video is it at that point if not DVCPROHD? Also, Apple handed out a demo DVD last year of DVCPROHD footage when FCP HD was announced, and most (or perhaps all) of it was 40 Mbps files, so I think Apple (and perhaps Panasonic) seem to be OK with referring to 40 Mbps files as DVCPROHD.

That all being said, I fully admit I don't know as much about formats and codecs as many people around this board, and I certainly don't know 5% as much as Barry. I'd be interested to hear if others disagree.

However, there is no DVCPRO-HD device available that records a subsampled 40mbps/2-channel stream.
Click to expand...

Unless you count a Varicam hooked up via FireWire to a G5 PowerMac recording directly to disk ;-) .

You have to process it through the Frame Rate Conversion tool to extract out and discard the redundant frames to get to 40mbps.
Click to expand...

I've never used the Varicam workflow, so I don't know this stuff first hand, but the article over at kenstone.net claims that this extraction is done automatically on capture. It's like Advanced Pulldown with the DVX. You only have to use the Frame Rate Conversion tool on non-standard frame rates used for slow or fast motion (i.e. anything other than 23.98, 29.97, or 59.94).

http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/dvcpro_hd_workflow_balis.html

It's possible that the P2 card would automatically do that, to optimize storage space, and maybe it would automatically only record two channels of audio to further save space...
Click to expand...

I would be flabbergasted if the P2 card recorded a 100 Mbps stream for 24p when a 40 Mbps stream would do. With tape, I understand the engineering reasons for always recording 100 Mbps (essentially, it's really hard to have the tape move at many different speeds). With P2, it seems like it would be harder from an engineering standpoint to record 100 Mbps to the cards, and it would result in lower recording times. I may well be missing something here, but 100 Mbps files on P2 for 24p footage seems like a lose-lose situation.
 
Re: AJ-HDX100 - check camcorderinfo.com

[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=HDV;num=1108204915;start=30#40 date=02/12/05 at 12:32:19]
Whereas P2 cards, especially the H series, have to support data transfer rates of 640 megabits (80 megabytes) per second.  MUCH more expensive technology.[/quote]

I saw that, and I have to say I didn't understand it. For uncompressed HD, 640 Mbps is great, but this HDX100 camera we're talking about would have data rates that are much, much lower. Even if it records the full DVCPROHD stream at 60p, we're talking about 100Mbps tops.

A $130 Sandisk 1GB Ultra II SD card has a sustained write speed of 9 MBps, or 72 Mbps. Now remember that the P2 card has 4 SD cards RAIDed together, and you should get a theoretical throughput of about 280Mbps. Even accounting for a slow RAID setup, it should be able to support 100Mbps.

We can take it a little further and assume that a prosumer camera is not going to have any frame rates above 30p or 60i (fairly safe in my book) and that the camera will record a scaled down data rate for lower frame rates of DVCPROHD (also a fairly safe assumption in my book, but others will probably disagree). If these two assumptions are correct, then cards for the HDX100 only have to support 50 Mbps, which one $130 SD card can do on its own.

I guess what I'm saying is that, if the ridiculous data throughput requirement of 640 Mbps is what is driving the P2 card costs up, I hope that Panasonic makes cheap slow versions that will work with the HDX100. We'll see.
 
Re: AJ-HDX100 - check camcorderinfo.com

[quote author=xander76 link=board=HDV;num=1108204915;start=45#54 date=02/12/05 at 21:28:45]At the same time, it seems to me that a DVCPROHD-encoded 720p24 file on disk is still DVCPROHD video despite being 40Mbps.[/quote]
Hey Xander, I'm with you all the way, and I hope that's the way they do it. I just don't know if they will, is all. IINM, this P2 camera will be the first implementation of DVCPRO-HD on something other than tape. Obviously it would be the most user-friendly way to go -- have the "frame rate conversion" happen automatically upon recording -- and it'll mean less throughput necessary, and no wasted space on the card.

I just don't know if that's the way it'll work. But I hope it does.

However, I'm still holding out hope that it'll have the full 60p capability as well. The format's capable of 60p, and I'm hoping that's what we get. Heck, I'm hoping we get *real* variable frame rates, like the VariCam. Will it be able to accomodate all that when writing to the card? We can hope.

Unless you count a Varicam hooked up via FireWire to a G5 PowerMac recording directly to disk ;-) .
Click to expand...
Nope, can't do it. No firewire port on the VariCam. Nice try though! :)

I've never used the Varicam workflow, so I don't know this stuff first hand, but the article over at kenstone.net claims that this extraction is done automatically on capture.
Click to expand...
Yes, it's a software-based version of the hardware Frame Rate Converter. And it's an intelligent decision, the right way to do it. I just hope there's no reason they can't implement it at record time. I don't know if it would mess with the audio or anything...

I would be flabbergasted if the P2 card recorded a 100 Mbps stream for 24p when a 40 Mbps stream would do.
Click to expand...
Well, ideally that would be what we'd hope for -- only recording the 40mbps. But there may be technical reasons it's not possible -- who knows, maybe the audio is specified to be interleaved a certain amount in each frame, and by lopping off 60% of the frames that may cause problems with the format... I don't know. I do hope that they are able to implement a space-saving technique such as this!
 
Re: AJ-HDX100 - check camcorderinfo.com

Let's face it, if Panasonic gives us a camera that offers 720/24p at 50mbs, and has a killer piece of ass..I mean glass in front of it, and can record to P2 as well as tape. Then it's a absolute STEAL at $10,000. I think if this camera will do all of that, ballgame over for the rest of the competition. Who would buy a mpeg-2 HDV camera then? Why would you want to?

I certainly hope that this comes to market. I am really tired of Sony being big kid on the block and dictating to us that interlace is the only way to go. They have ruled for too long!
 
Re: AJ-HDX100 - check camcorderinfo.com

[quote author=Kidster link=board=HDV;num=1108204915;start=45#58 date=02/13/05 at 06:11:58]Let's face it, if Panasonic gives us a camera that offers 720/24p at 50mbs, and has a killer piece of ass..I mean glass in front of it, and can record to P2 as well as tape. Then it's a absolute STEAL at $10,000. ![/quote]
A wievfinder for a HD camcorder costs like $10,000,- It means if you get a camcorder under 10k you can't expect to get the same as these big brothers has. Sony and Panasonic could give you a camcorder under 10k with all the stuff you want but why should they? Nobody does. They give you only something like a HD or DVCPRO-HD for under $10,000. What Sony did is just to challange others with the Z1U/E. It has everthing they had in the PD's pluss something like a HD for under $5,000.

[quote author=Kidster link=board=HDV;num=1108204915;start=45#58 date=02/13/05 at 06:11:58]I certainly hope that this comes to market. I am really tired of Sony being big kid on the block and dictating to us that interlace is the only way to go. They have ruled for too long![/quote]It is not Sony but the broadcasters who wants interlace. In US as I know it's something like 19 hd-stations of 23 has 1080i. Sony does what they want and after they did it they force others to follow the concept. If Panasonic could they would do the same but they didn't has that strong position in the market as Sony has.

So I guess it is not too cleaver to dream to much about free meal in this world. If Panasonic gives you a DVCPRO-HD under 10k it will be a compromise like the Z1 is. Jody said the Z1 fits into the HD production and believe it it fits. And if Panasonic doesn't give much much more for the price under 10k than the Z1 gives for under 5k, they gonna loose this game.

I just wonder what they can give us what is not going to hurt the pro market. Better lense is my bigest guess, more serieus body I hope, biger CCD is not one of them. P2 card isn't so much pluss even it is a good solution and I don't count it as a big part of the price because we are going to pay for this extra with buying the P2 card.  
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top