AG-HPX371E jello issue....

Roberto Tafuro

Roberto Tafuro

Well-known member
Hallo to everybody and sorry for my bad english! I'm a new user of this forum and i'm very happy to see so much videomakers here! That's great! Sorry if i've skip something to do before starting this new thread.
I'm a new owner of an AG-HPX371E from Panasonic. I've found on this forum a thread from mr. Garion about a small jello effect in almost every settings of this camera. On wednesday i will go to my reseller to try my camera with the thecs of the store because i've notice that this effect is too much in my camera too! Maybe i'll change it with a Sony Ex-3 or with a 301. I've a friend with a 301 and we tested the cameras side by side. The effect is almost invisible on the 301. There's someone else here that have noticed the same issue? Or is there any 371 user that doesn't see this effect at all? Or in a reasonable way ? I know that the DSP of this camera is changed from the 301's one... personally i like more skew than flying things in a shot!

If is there someone who could help me in this research i'll appreciate a lot!
Here's is the link : http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=210156

Best regards to everyone from Italy!
Roberto Tafuro
 
Barry Green's test showed immediately that jello was vastly LESS on the 371 than the 301.
What Garion wa reporting was something strange that was not skew/jello.
Steve
 
Thank you mr. Phillips. I'm reffering to the same issue that mr. Garion has in the shot with
the poster and the moon. I called it jello, sorry for that! Here are my tests on vimeo, low
quality.

http://vimeo.com/album/250416
pass: fabrica2006

Three of them are made in a very bad light situation but the one that shows trees is in a good light situation. Is out of my house... i'm filming it in any kind of codec, AVCintra, DVCPRO,50p, 50i, 720, 1080 etc... and it shows everytime. I'm filming the scene at every hour of the day, changing settings,shutter off, gain + 3 ( this one shows the effect less then other settings !! )...
I don't know... The one with the tripod is in macro. Ok i know that it's a strange light situation but during the shot of a reportage most of the light situations are bad ones!
I've choosen this camera after seeing the Barry Green 's review and the
Philip Bloom test and i've think about the noise reduction and the skew changing from the 301.Maybe the one that i've got has some bugs...

Thanks a lot for the support!
Roberto
 
OK, yes I see it now. Had to look very hard, but I'm sure it's more noticeable on the original footage. On the shot of the tripod head it's definitely there on the knob at the front, and just like Garion's.
It's a weird thing alright! And the fact that folks are seeing it on all sorts of different codecs seems to rule that out.
Still waiting for an answer from Panny!!!
Steve
 
Thank you Steve for the support... yes in the original shoot is terrible! I've called Panasonic and they said to me that it's the cmos limit... i don't think that. EX3 has the cmos ( i know it's different from the panny mos ) PMW-350 as one too. As i said on wednesday i will go to my reseller to test the camera with their tech. Probably i will change my opinion about the 370 model but not from the Panasonic products! I'm thinking about a 500 or definitely buy the PMW-350... i'm so confused. But i'm still thinking that my camera and the Garion's one are buggy!
Roberto
 
I don't think the average viewer will notice. You are being too picky.

Shoot some typical scenes and ask various people you know to watch and ask, " Do you see anything strange that bothers you?" Of course if you point it out to pro, such as people on this board, they may notice, but the audience will not. After all, you even had to circle the areas with jello.

Good luck
 
Thank you to everyone for the reply... I know that if my mother or my friends see the footage maybe will not see it... but there is it! I make post production and when i see videos i will notice every single bug. Ok we can discuss how much the effect is in the video, but the point is the price of the camera and that i have the same issue in every setting i use. Today i will post different footage of the same trees. I don't want to be too picky but it's a new camera and when i see the 301's footage made in the same conditions i will notice that this issue is more intense on 371.I'm sorry... it's intense! Because the 301 doesn't shows it in 720 25p or 720 50p or 1080i or 1080p.301 shows a ghosting in 1080 24p. But it's normal! I send the video with the tripod head to my girlfriend and don't say noghing about it, only : " Hey look at this from the new camera! Is it cool? " and she reply to me : " What is that floating knob? " :( Ok in the video of the trees the low qualty confused a bit... but the knob is floating in the air!!!!! And the shadows on the fujinon are flying too! Is the 371 a new camera? Yes! Have they fixed issue of the 301? Absolutely not!!! They have change something in the dsp settings. I want a camera that shows artifacts only in some cases, not everytime i use it with nature without a tripod. That's the point! You have to think this.... you are seeing that on vimeo on a compress video. Try to imagine to see it on a big HD plasma.... would you buy the camera?
Roberto
 
You are absolutely right Roberto. It is definitely something odd, and even though minor it does need to be looked at.
Joe, did you see this thread http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=210156 and the example clip, the effect is a bit more obvious here, and it is so weird.
In that thread I said that to my mind we just need to find from Panny exactly what it is that's causing it, whether it can be solved and if not then at least how best to avoid it. But until we know what's causing it how on earth do users know how to proceed?
I'd still say that it's acceptable based on the fact that the 371 is still an incredibly cheap camera for what you get - the whole kit is less than half the price of a standard HD lens!
Steve
 
Thank you Steve!
I'm now uploading a new clip in AVCIntra 720p 25p. If my client said to me : Ok, i want a footage of trees in 720p 25p because you have the possibility to do that, and i want it in a short time, about 1 hour!. Ok here is my workflow... Oh my God! I've to take with me my tripod, don't use panny with shadows trees ( as you notice from this new clip the real priblems are shadows... ),set the gain at +3 ( !! ) and than use a wiggle expression inside AE to make the illusion of an handled shoot.
I want a serious help from your experience and from the experience of all you pros here in this great forum.... i know that it's not the right place to do it! I want to change my 371 with a AG-HPX500 equipped with the XA17x7.6B RM-M58 lens ( i know... it's a classic! ). Or change it with the Spny PMW-350. I've read that the 500 panoramic shoot are undetailled ( maybe the man that shoot them doesn't knows the right shutter settings .... ). Please help me in this choise. What i've to try to do in the store to make really visible the limits of this cameras? I want to see them in a bad condition not on the tripod before buying one of them!
Thank you so much for the support...
In the next post i'll send the link to the new video, sorry... vimeo is too slow this morning!
Roberto
 
P.S.
As you can notice.... the skew is gone in telephoto! Great! That's ture! But... what are that shadows? They are moving ... at the wrong speed!

Roberto
 
It is strange for sure. It looks like the same effect you get with haze on a warm day, with the image shifting, but it's obviously not that as it would be all over the frame and some of the clips have been close ups from inches away.
On the HPX500, I'd be very wary about buying a camera with a 600,000 pixel chip, it's only just above SD resolution! I tried one briefly years ago and in 1080 it was OK, no better, though colours etc were typical Panny lovely. Viewfinder was atrocious for critical tele work, pure guesswork whether focus was on or not.
Steve
 
Roberto Tafuro said:
Thank you Steve for the support... yes in the original shoot is terrible! I've called Panasonic and they said to me that it's the cmos limit... i don't think that. EX3 has the cmos ( i know it's different from the panny mos ) PMW-350 as one too. As i said on wednesday i will go to my reseller to test the camera with their tech. Probably i will change my opinion about the 370 model but not from the Panasonic products! I'm thinking about a 500 or definitely buy the PMW-350... i'm so confused. But i'm still thinking that my camera and the Garion's one are buggy!
Roberto
Click to expand...

Hello Roberto:
What I am about to say is not intended to denigrate in any way but after the problems I experienced with my HPX 300 (primarily skew, noise, sensitivity and did I mention, skew!) I promptly sold it and waited to have a look at the 370. While I realize that people perhaps more professional than myself have made comparisons between the 300 and the new 370, to my aging eyes the difference or improvement was not significant enough for me to justify paying a premium for another 1/3" camera. As a result, I replaced the 300 with a Sony PMW-350 (2/3" CMOS)––a world of difference–– and although it costs considerably more than the 370, if you can afford it, don't hesitate! As testimony to this statement, I invite you to search the web for user complaints or problems with the 350 ... they are almost non-existent. On the other hand, the few posts that exist are for the most part replete with accolades.

Best of luck with whatever your decision.
 
Last edited:
Thank you Steve and thank you Ron! Yes you're right Ron... i was a bad consumer! I've trusted in Panasonic and their long experience... what a mistake i've made! Sony is the one that i've looked first, and if Steve is warry me about the 500 i have to consider his opinion! I've read much about that camera and a lot of people doesn't speach well about it. I will try the cameras in the store... but i know that Sony is the right choise. The viewfinder on the 371 is terrible too!!! In a sunny day you have to wear sunglasses to center the right focus! The real thing is that the 371 present a lot of bugs. I don't know why... And in a sunny day you've to expect pixel shifting in the shadows everywhere... so sad...
Roberto
 
Roberto,

What you see is simply an evidence of one of the artifacts inherent to the cmos sensors in the HPX300 series camcorders at the default settings by the manufacturer.

I do have both the HPX300 and the HPX370, the last one, since yesterday. I have not done yet any comparison between these 2 camcorders to scientifically establish and quantify differences in sensitivity, noise and skew... But there are... Specially in sensitivity. Strongly evident!

Nevertheless I must point out what the operating manuals say:

"A subject that is captured when moving quickly across the field of view may appear distorted. This is due to the signal read out format of the image sensor (MOS sensor) and is not a malfunction."

Read this under "Notes" on page 58 for the HPX370 operating instructions (p51 for HPX300), in the "Setting the Electronic Shutter" chapter.

These warnings should be taken in considerations for every camera with cmos sensors in the market.

I strongly suggest, according to my experience with the HPX300, to set the shutter off always, and set 1/48" for 24p and 1/60" for 30p recordings. Said so, for 25p recordings (1080i & 720p), the shutter must be set at 1/50".

In the operating instructions and brochures for both camcorders you will read that the SHUTTER OFF values for these frame settings are:
for 24p, 1/24
for 25p, 1/25
for 30p, 1/30
These are not acceptable for me.

Please give this a chance and try again. It looks like the only way to overcome this situation.

Well, in my case, it has been.

The HPX370 is an extraordinary camcorder for the price you pay. You will not get any better for an AVC-Intra camcorder, the most reliable codec in the world! And for the price difference you pay for a Sony PMW-350, you can upgrade the default zoom lens to a Fujinon HD wide angle zoom, which is the best option so far for under $7K. I do have a Letus Ultimatte + 1/3" Relay Lens + Zeiss ZF Primes and the image I get is simply wonderful!

Both the color viewfinder and LCD monitor are one of the best I have ever used: I am in the business since 1984! I live in the Pacific coast side of Ecuador... and believe me... we do certainly have real sunny days in Ecuador! I strongly disagree with your opinion in this regard. I suggest you to thoroughly read the manual and learn how to calibrate your tool. At the end you will be truly happy and very satisfied for your purchasing decision.

My .2¢!

Best,

Henry Epstein.
 
Last edited:
Wow! Thank you so much Henry! That's what i've expected that Panasonic do for the users! Explanations! I've read the manual and i was thinking about a car that moves or a fast pan. I'll give it a try tomorrow morning and post the shots for all of you are interested. By the way the settings that i've used are the BBC one. Not for the shutter. I've understand that shutter and gain are the way to remove this strange effects... But with shutter off i can't have the definition of a 1/1000 that was amazing for me!
Roberto
 
Roberto,

Glad to hear that!

Yes, the shutter speed control is your best friend for moving objects or fast pans... And how speedy or slowly you move your camera, too!

Regarding the BBC settings... those are that... Just good settings... But not the best. You must give yourself the chance to find out a better setting for any particular situation you might encounter.

These HPX300 series camcorders are certainly extraordinary tools for the price you pay!

I also suggest you to try the Panasonic HPX300 camera settings (about 18) posted at their web page... This is a good starting point for your exercise!

Regarding gain... please keep it at -3dB or 0dB... And DRS @ 1.

Your Master Pedestal in any case should not be higher that -5.

Augurigli il meglio!

H.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top