Jan_Crittenden
Veteran
Hi Everyone,
Just uploaded this one a few minutes ago. Hope you like it.
http://www.vimeo.com/6404934
Best,
Jan
Just uploaded this one a few minutes ago. Hope you like it.
http://www.vimeo.com/6404934
Best,
Jan
AG-HMC40 Video on Vimeo
- Thread starter Jan_Crittenden
- Start date
studio1972
Well-known member
Nice video. Any idea how this camera compares in low light to the HMC150 etc? I find it impossible to tell from the stats.
Jan:
Is this cam in your product jurisdiction?
Just wondering.
Is this cam in your product jurisdiction?
Just wondering.
> Here’s Panasonic’s newest AVCCAM handheld camcorder, the AG-HMC40.
> It captures full HD video and 10.6-megapixel stills.
Just like the HDC-TM300\SD300\HS300, which it is based on.
> This dual-use camcorder records on inexpensive SD cards,
> and can record for up to 12 hours of AVCHD video on a single 32GB SD card.
Just like the HDC-TM300\SD300\HS300, which it is based on.
> In its exclusive 24Mbps PH mode, it can record up to 3 hours
> of 1920 x 1080 or 1280 x 720 video, delivering images far superior to HDV.
This the HDC-TM300\SD300\HS300 cannot do. By the way, while the HMC40 shoots native progressive, the HDC-TM300\SD300\HS300 uses pulldown. Could you explain why, considering that older consumer models like the SD9/HS9 and SD100/HS100 offered native 1080p24 mode?
> It captures full HD video and 10.6-megapixel stills.
Just like the HDC-TM300\SD300\HS300, which it is based on.
> This dual-use camcorder records on inexpensive SD cards,
> and can record for up to 12 hours of AVCHD video on a single 32GB SD card.
Just like the HDC-TM300\SD300\HS300, which it is based on.
> In its exclusive 24Mbps PH mode, it can record up to 3 hours
> of 1920 x 1080 or 1280 x 720 video, delivering images far superior to HDV.
This the HDC-TM300\SD300\HS300 cannot do. By the way, while the HMC40 shoots native progressive, the HDC-TM300\SD300\HS300 uses pulldown. Could you explain why, considering that older consumer models like the SD9/HS9 and SD100/HS100 offered native 1080p24 mode?
BobDiaz
The Professor
Jan takes care of the higher models, Steve Golub covers the HMC-150 and the HMC-40.
Until someone does a side by side test, I can't say exactly, but I expect the HMC-150 to do better in low light than the HMC-40.
On paper the HMC-150 specification says, "Minimum Luminance: 3 lx (when F1.6, +12dB of gain and 1/25 sec. of shutter speed)"
The HMC-40 says, "Minimum Luminance: Approx. 1 lx (Gain: +34 dB, Slow Shutter: 1/2 sec.)"
Adjusting for the difference in shutter speeds, the HMC-40 at 1/25 of a second would be: 12.5 lx or about 4x more light than the HMC-150.
With the ISO of the HMC-150 at 500, the HMC-40's ISO would be about 120. HOWEVER, this is misleading. For a wedding, some may find that an even slower shutter speed of 1/15 of a second will work and allow the HMC-40 a little more room for lower light; maybe 7 or 8 lx. Another issue is that the noise levels are likely to be different for both cameras at the higher gain settings.
There's footage posted on VIMEO with night shots form the HMC-41E. His gain setting was stated to be:
Until other users start posting footage and start talking about their tests of their HMC-40, that's the best answer I can give you. The good news is that the camera is now shipping and it's only a mater of a few weeks before we get the answers....
Bob Diaz
Until someone does a side by side test, I can't say exactly, but I expect the HMC-150 to do better in low light than the HMC-40.
On paper the HMC-150 specification says, "Minimum Luminance: 3 lx (when F1.6, +12dB of gain and 1/25 sec. of shutter speed)"
The HMC-40 says, "Minimum Luminance: Approx. 1 lx (Gain: +34 dB, Slow Shutter: 1/2 sec.)"
Adjusting for the difference in shutter speeds, the HMC-40 at 1/25 of a second would be: 12.5 lx or about 4x more light than the HMC-150.
With the ISO of the HMC-150 at 500, the HMC-40's ISO would be about 120. HOWEVER, this is misleading. For a wedding, some may find that an even slower shutter speed of 1/15 of a second will work and allow the HMC-40 a little more room for lower light; maybe 7 or 8 lx. Another issue is that the noise levels are likely to be different for both cameras at the higher gain settings.
There's footage posted on VIMEO with night shots form the HMC-41E. His gain setting was stated to be:
Until other users start posting footage and start talking about their tests of their HMC-40, that's the best answer I can give you. The good news is that the camera is now shipping and it's only a mater of a few weeks before we get the answers....
Bob Diaz
Barry_Green
Moderator
And that's Steve in the video.
Barry_Green
Moderator
About low light -- we simply don't know until we can do a side-by-side (and I'll be doing that very shortly, mine should be shipped very soon!)
But while I understand and agree with Bob's assessment, the only thing I can compare it to is the HPX300. The 300 has 4x as many pixels as the 170, yet they have basically comparable light sensitivity at comparable noise levels. That, I was not expecting.
So my guess is that the HMC40 should be a stop slower than the HMC150. However, if it employs aggressive noise reduction effectively, it might be possible for them to gain up the sensor without introducing objectionable noise, which would raise the perceived sensitivity.
So -- I am prepared for it to be a stop slower, but I have an outside hope that it might surprise us.
But while I understand and agree with Bob's assessment, the only thing I can compare it to is the HPX300. The 300 has 4x as many pixels as the 170, yet they have basically comparable light sensitivity at comparable noise levels. That, I was not expecting.
So my guess is that the HMC40 should be a stop slower than the HMC150. However, if it employs aggressive noise reduction effectively, it might be possible for them to gain up the sensor without introducing objectionable noise, which would raise the perceived sensitivity.
So -- I am prepared for it to be a stop slower, but I have an outside hope that it might surprise us.
I hope to do side by side tests with the HMC-150 & HMC-40 this weekend. All I want is the footage to match up acceptably in a typical low light setting in both brightness and color balance. If it's not very close, I will return the 40 and avoid the headaches by sticking with 150s.
Hey Barry:
What settings between the 40 and the 170 in the same environment would produce a good test?
I should be able to do a test by this weekend
What settings between the 40 and the 170 in the same environment would produce a good test?
I should be able to do a test by this weekend
I hope to see side-by-side tests with the FX7/V1.
Barry_Green
Moderator
I don't know... I'd have to spend some time A/B'ing them on a monitor to see what settings produce comparable pictures...
I totally agree with you on that. Im just hoping they have a similar color response on the exact same settings (since the menu is essentially the same for scene files). Being very different cameras sensor wise, Im sure they have to be somewhat different, but I sure hope in the ballpark. I would consider my tests the laymens observations and a pass/fail test. Pass & Im sticking/stuck with it, fail and it's time to spend another $1,400 for another 150.
I have a shoot on Sept. 11th and have to get an additional camera by then, so Im already cutting it way too close to depend too much on an unknown camera.
May I suggest some?
* in low light, set both to 0 dB gain, make some shots.
* Do the above at different resolutions and frame rates to check whether they affect sensitivity.
* set the 170 to 0 dB gain, notice signal level, set the 40's gain so it matches the 170's signal level, make some shots, interesting to see whether higher-res chips can help with hiding noise and preserving resolution. I think the 40 has waveform monitor, if not you would have to make several shots with different gain, then compare them in an NLE, using NLE's waveform monitor. What is the difference in dB?
* This one is what I am interested in: lock the shutter speed, then click through iris and check the readout. If its built-in ND filter is anything like on the Sonys and Canons, it should stick somewhere at F4 or F5.6 for several clicks of Iris wheel, I expect 6 or 8 clicks. Does the display show ND strength when the ND is engaged?
* Also check whether you are able to use screw-in filters along with the stock hood.
studio1972
Well-known member
Thanks for the replies re low light. Guess I wont have to wait too long. I'm using an SD100 as my second cam at the moment. As you can imagine, it's a long way short of the HMC151. If the HMC41 is 3/4 of the way to the 151 I would be happy, if it's 100% as good I would be delighted.
I have the SD1 and the SD100. I haven't sold the SD100 yet only because I bought it for only $420, and also because it shoots native progressive. This is the SD100: http://www.vimeo.com/1865441 The U.S. model shoots native 1080p24, the European model shoots 1080PsF25, but this should not bother you, you don't have to remove the pulldown anyway. I wonder does it record with interlaced or progressive chroma in 1080PsF25 mode?
The SD1 produces very nice image, especially in good light. The codec shows some macroblocking on really busy scenes like water, but overall works very nice, and shows nothing like the GH1's mud. The SD100 produces a bit muddy image with edges not well defined, but downconverted to 720p or to SD it looks ok. The TM300, which the the HMC40 is based on, shows similar kind of muddiness, but it is barely noticeable. Nevertheless, this is not the same horrible mud as on the GH1, just some roughness to the edges.
I would prefer Panasonic to use the chips from the SD1 in the HMC40. I am not sure whether these are progressive or interlaced chips though. If they are interlaced, Panasonic did not have a choice but to develop new sensors.
Lower power consumption is a benefit of xMOS, the SD100 works about twice longer than the SD1 using the same battery, I expect the HMC40 to be power-stingy too.
The SD1 produces very nice image, especially in good light. The codec shows some macroblocking on really busy scenes like water, but overall works very nice, and shows nothing like the GH1's mud. The SD100 produces a bit muddy image with edges not well defined, but downconverted to 720p or to SD it looks ok. The TM300, which the the HMC40 is based on, shows similar kind of muddiness, but it is barely noticeable. Nevertheless, this is not the same horrible mud as on the GH1, just some roughness to the edges.
I would prefer Panasonic to use the chips from the SD1 in the HMC40. I am not sure whether these are progressive or interlaced chips though. If they are interlaced, Panasonic did not have a choice but to develop new sensors.
Lower power consumption is a benefit of xMOS, the SD100 works about twice longer than the SD1 using the same battery, I expect the HMC40 to be power-stingy too.
studio1972
Well-known member
The UK SD100 has what it calls Digital Cinema Colour in the 25p mode if that's what you meant?
One tip have for low light is to always use manual focus, as the auto focus is pathetic in low light and makes the image look even softer than it needs to.
I can't help liking the little thing though as it has a cold shoe for a videomic which makes it ideal as a camera for people to leave messages on while running unmanned for hour after hour in IA mode.
Mine runs for 4 hours on a battery that only lasts the HMC for 90 mins, so that's handy as well.
One tip have for low light is to always use manual focus, as the auto focus is pathetic in low light and makes the image look even softer than it needs to.
I can't help liking the little thing though as it has a cold shoe for a videomic which makes it ideal as a camera for people to leave messages on while running unmanned for hour after hour in IA mode.
Mine runs for 4 hours on a battery that only lasts the HMC for 90 mins, so that's handy as well.