AG-DVX200 4K Large-Sensor Handheld Camcorder
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diegocervo
Well-known member
I can see noise in the jacket. Only there.
Raw file? This is a heavily compressed mp4 file. Best way to judge the camera is to rent or borrow one and shoot some footage yourself using your standards to light and shoot.
I also see quite a bit noise in the jacket and a only a little noise in the background.
If Barrys pictures after firmware update is to be trusted, there must have gone something wrong somewhere in the process. But where? Scenefile???
The same goes for the second footage from the bridge. It looks like there is something completly wrong with the DVX200 footage. Bad whitebalance and the colours too dark. The close-up shows a fringe around the edges. I did notice that from this footage too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyQeanyVofY - look at the edges around the colour-blocks - after firmware update. Besides also more noise after update in this footage - but again - impossible to judge on Youtube...
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The problem is that everyone is looking for some mistakes of the settings,
and they do not realize. that this camera is basically a bad product.
it hasn't be ready yet...
i comparison this camera with a lot of other camera, (side by side)
and clearly this was always the bad (noisy on 0dB!!!, incorrect colors)
this is very disappointing
and they do not realize. that this camera is basically a bad product.
it hasn't be ready yet...
i comparison this camera with a lot of other camera, (side by side)
and clearly this was always the bad (noisy on 0dB!!!, incorrect colors)
this is very disappointing
Barry_Green
Moderator
Okay, I copied the first clip with the reporter onto an SD card and just played it back from the DVX200 into the Odyssey.
I don't know exactly how to proceed with this. I bet you fifty bucks I could bring in a hundred people, have them all watch this footage directly from the DVX200 played into an external monitor like the Odyssey, and not one of them would say "that's noisy." Not one. There just isn't any visible, objectionable noise. Not at full-screen resolution, not at 1:1 zoom. It's not that it's absolutely pristine, no, there's an undercurrent of noise, but it's just not noticeable or objectionable. If you hunt for it you could find it, but what reasonable viewer would do that?
If I blow it up to 2:1 zoom, I can see noise in the jacket. But only in the jacket.
I'm not saying there's zero DETECTABLE noise. I'm saying there's no OBJECTIONABLE noise. I don't think anyone, looking at the same screen I am, would say "oh, wow, that's noisy." I just can't imagine anyone having that reaction. Which means, likely, there must be a difference in how we're viewing it. Maybe the monitor is adding sharpening, or the h.264 decoder or software player is decoding the image in a way that magnifies noise, or ... something. I don't know. But I do know that if we were standing side by side, looking at what I'm looking at now, I don't think anyone would say that this footage looks noisy or like a "noise generator".
And, again, if I'm not mistaken, this footage was taken with a raised Master Detail level. Had the Master Detail level been at zero, or even lower, then I feel quite confident that even this minimal level of noise would be masked further.
I'm tempted to just try filming the Odyssey screen to show you folks what I'm seeing. Don't know what good that'd do, but -- I don't know what else to say. When viewed on a larger monitor at a reasonable viewing distance, this footage looks very good and very clean.
Thing that bugs me is that we had a similar thread back when the AF100 was released. There were people who would say "that footage looks clean", and others saying "that's the noisiest footage I've ever seen from any camera ever." We went through a thousand permutations trying to figure out what the difference was, whether it was playback software or sharpening on the TV or whatever. I posted a vimeo of the noise levels of the AF100 at all ISO settings from 200 to 3200, showing it wasn't "plagued" with noise, like some people were saying. But seriously, a clip would be posted and we'd get two different people saying drastically different things about it.
I don't know exactly how to proceed with this. I bet you fifty bucks I could bring in a hundred people, have them all watch this footage directly from the DVX200 played into an external monitor like the Odyssey, and not one of them would say "that's noisy." Not one. There just isn't any visible, objectionable noise. Not at full-screen resolution, not at 1:1 zoom. It's not that it's absolutely pristine, no, there's an undercurrent of noise, but it's just not noticeable or objectionable. If you hunt for it you could find it, but what reasonable viewer would do that?
If I blow it up to 2:1 zoom, I can see noise in the jacket. But only in the jacket.
I'm not saying there's zero DETECTABLE noise. I'm saying there's no OBJECTIONABLE noise. I don't think anyone, looking at the same screen I am, would say "oh, wow, that's noisy." I just can't imagine anyone having that reaction. Which means, likely, there must be a difference in how we're viewing it. Maybe the monitor is adding sharpening, or the h.264 decoder or software player is decoding the image in a way that magnifies noise, or ... something. I don't know. But I do know that if we were standing side by side, looking at what I'm looking at now, I don't think anyone would say that this footage looks noisy or like a "noise generator".
And, again, if I'm not mistaken, this footage was taken with a raised Master Detail level. Had the Master Detail level been at zero, or even lower, then I feel quite confident that even this minimal level of noise would be masked further.
I'm tempted to just try filming the Odyssey screen to show you folks what I'm seeing. Don't know what good that'd do, but -- I don't know what else to say. When viewed on a larger monitor at a reasonable viewing distance, this footage looks very good and very clean.
Thing that bugs me is that we had a similar thread back when the AF100 was released. There were people who would say "that footage looks clean", and others saying "that's the noisiest footage I've ever seen from any camera ever." We went through a thousand permutations trying to figure out what the difference was, whether it was playback software or sharpening on the TV or whatever. I posted a vimeo of the noise levels of the AF100 at all ISO settings from 200 to 3200, showing it wasn't "plagued" with noise, like some people were saying. But seriously, a clip would be posted and we'd get two different people saying drastically different things about it.
Barry_Green
Moderator
I have a loaner GH4 available. I will attempt to match the DVX200 to the GH4 as best as I can get it, and will post some comparisons. Same footage, same subject, same workflow; the GH4 is a much more "known" quantity, so I'm presuming such tests would be illustrative to folks?
Sounds great, Barry.
I have a question. If you record on fx Atomos you get the raw recordings from the camera, right? Has the latest firmware update made any changes to the raw output, or only to the things related to scenefiles or other baked in looks?
I think tjis example is some of the best I have yet seen from the DVX200 and this is from a pre production model: http://youtu.be/qdzUJpHf4_s But it is as raw as it gets and no grading or anything. This tells me thr camera is able to make magnificent footage...
David W. Jones
Veteran
No, this camera does not do raw.
Dear Barry!
Thank you very much for your interest.
Odyssey display too small to see the noise
I watch the DVX200 image through output SDI with video switcher, side by side other cameras (on 32coll display)
and here the other cameras' image aren't noisy
that's the noisiest camera I've ever seen
my colleagues say this too
Thank you very much for your interest.
Odyssey display too small to see the noise
I watch the DVX200 image through output SDI with video switcher, side by side other cameras (on 32coll display)
and here the other cameras' image aren't noisy
that's the noisiest camera I've ever seen
my colleagues say this too
Haha...no sorry - what I meant was not really "raw" - more "clean" colourwise - the VLOG. When recording in Prores 422 and VLOG you get the most clean and best editable image you can get from the DVX200 I guess? So my question should be rephraseed: has the latest firmware update changed anything in the Prores 422 or VLog?
fastfinger
Well-known member
thumbs up for a GH4 side by side comparison
Barry_Green
Moderator
In 1:1 pixel mode, from six inches away, it provides plenty of image fidelity. Also, I am viewing on a 24" monitor from 2 feet away.
Interesting. Have you contacted Panasonic Europe about this? I would want to have a representative observe that setup to see if there's anything wrong. It just doesn't sound right.
I haven't seen the live setup, so I can't say what may be happening. I can say that from the recorded footage you provided, it is not what I would consider noisy at all, and much much less noisy than, say, an HVX200. So if you're getting results that are causing you to say it's "the noisiest camera you've ever seen", all I can say is -- there's something wrong somewhere. Can you contact Panasonic or at least your local dealer and have them observe the situation?
Barry_Green
Moderator
The color rendering and noise texture improvements would apply equally to externally-recorded or internally-recorded footage.
Barry_Green
Moderator
I don't have any of those to compare against. Do you perhaps have access to a GH4 that you can compare against? I currently have a GH4 on loan for a brief time, so perhaps we can make comparable comparisons?
I have the same problem with noise. And this is the best example:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/w0tvog2036gw0rd/panateszt1.mp4?dl=0
Nobody see noise?
diegocervo
Well-known member
I don't have a dvx200 (yet) but I'm following with interest this thread since I believe this is one of the most interesting cameras of 2015.
From the clips that you guys have been kindly posting, I bet that this noise is a scene file issue that could be solved with some tweaking.
To my eyes, it looks like it's a thin monochromatic grain, kind of mosquito noise in the shadows.
I'm sure that soon this camera will receive justice with some good scene files made by Barry or by someone else.
On the other hand, I believe that it's a shame that Panasonic shipped the DVX200 with some evident problems on colors and noise, leaving the hard work to its customers.
From the clips that you guys have been kindly posting, I bet that this noise is a scene file issue that could be solved with some tweaking.
To my eyes, it looks like it's a thin monochromatic grain, kind of mosquito noise in the shadows.
I'm sure that soon this camera will receive justice with some good scene files made by Barry or by someone else.
On the other hand, I believe that it's a shame that Panasonic shipped the DVX200 with some evident problems on colors and noise, leaving the hard work to its customers.
I see the noise at 100% on an iMac. But it's not as bad as pancam's footage in which the noise on the jacket at 100% is just a distracting swarm.