AG-DVX200 4K Large-Sensor Handheld Camcorder

[philiplipetz]

Hey gang. Watched the new vids. A few observations:

-Camera definitely does not seem to lack for sharpness! Everything looks tack sharp to me. HOWEVER, it is a very "EX1-style" sharpness in my opinion--that is, visible lines around contrasty edges. Can the sharpening be reduced to give it a more "organic" look a la C100, etc.? I believe that heavy line sharpening is one of the icky things we associate with the "video look" we're all (mostly) trying to get away from.

-My impression from the start and even with the newest footage is colors always look undersaturated, except for reds (which are almost OVERsaturated). Anyone else see that?

-I still see the thing I complained about pages back with the skin tones. . .that weird desaturated "greyness" in random patches of the skin, especially where skin is in shade/underexposed. Look at the boating footage. . .a few shots in guy with binoculars exhibits this really badly. You can also see it later in the video when there are more medium and close shots of people.

-Also noticed in one of the evening shots in the boating footage, there is a group of caucasian folks who all appear to be wearing makeup 'cause of the way their skin tones are rendered. . .almost everyone is the exact same color and their faces are a smoothed over "blah" of the same shade of beige-y-ness. People super do NOT look that way in real life.

These are all things that I have been waiting for Pannie to correct, but this was an official video and so i fear they are things that come with the camera. I can see adjusting the red balance but not the rest.

 

[Josh Bass]

that would be a pity. you could blame what you want on youtube compression but other peoples work with other cams (C100, Fs7, fs100) still looks good online even with that same compression, so...

 

[mattjeh]

So has anyone else who is realistically considering purchasing the DVX200 raised an interested eyebrow over at the Sony FS5? For UK pricing, it doesn't seem too much of a jump from the dvx200 at £4100 to the FS5k (lens included) at £5460.

Personally I have never previously considered an interchangeable lens camera, I don't like shooting video with a dslr. The FS5 brings a more compact ex1 style camcorder experience to the table which I know I'd be quite comfortable with. But this certainly gives me a disadvantage if I ever did consider it because of the investment of the lenses, the lens in the kit with the FS5 seems ok but it makes a lot of compromises.

That said, the Sony marketing videos 'Free Spirit' and the related behind the scenes videos are utterly gorgeous.

But in making my mind up I come back to the points of costings and 'fitting for purpose'. Costs for the initial investment and beyond, will I need to invest a further £2k in a more powerful and higher quality zoom lens? Probably. And when all is said and done, an integrated lens camera is what I'm used to and fits perfectly for what I do, so I'm back to the DVX200.......but maybe still considering the FS5......or not.

Anyone else had a wandering eye?

 

[Greg Smith]

My heart loves the FS5 (and FS7), but my head says that, for me, it comes down to the lens. I really need that wide zoom range and responsive variable speed servo control, and there's nothing available for the FS5/7 right now that meets my needs as well as the built-in lens on the DVX200. Not to mention that even if there were, it would drive the price of those cameras way beyond what I can currently afford.

- Greg

 

[vanvideo]

For all its features, the DVX200 is tough to beat at its price. You could opt for the FS5, but you'll spend about $2,000 more, then add more money for the lenses. And both will give you 4K at 8-bit, 100mbps 4:2:0. And the DVX200 has 4K 60P. The Sony tops out at 4K 30P.

The one thing the Sony does have is HD 50mbps, 10-bit 4:2:2 internal recording. For broadcast use, that's a very big plus. And it has the bigger S35 sensor.

Personally, I could use the FS5, because I used to own an FS100, and I kept all the lenses and adapters. And I own a PMW300, so the batteries can be used as well. I already have a big cost saving, but if you don't have these items, the DVX200 looks mighty tempting. It still does to me, too.

 

[Danilo Del Tufo]

So has anyone else who is realistically considering purchasing the DVX200 raised an interested eyebrow over at the Sony FS5? For UK pricing, it doesn't seem too much of a jump from the dvx200 at £4100 to the FS5k (lens included) at £5460.

I think that Sony camera will be a winner, Dvx200 has a lot of compromises, but its 13x zoom lens is good, while Sony has just 6x zoom lens (SELP18105G) which is almost good for various shooting scenarios.

 

[Ron Evans]

All my current cameras are Sony but I was looking for a better camera for QFHD 60P than my FDR-AX1 and that is why the DVX200 is of interest. If the FS5 had 60P QFHD it would meet my needs.But it is really the record spec of the PXW-X70 in an E-mount small FS7 body with PXW-160/180 ND filter. I do not need interchangeable lens as long as the lens is wide enough ( the current issue I have with the DVX200 in QFHD 60P ) FS5 does not meet my needs at all as it will not replace my NX5U or the FDR-AX1 and costs more than I would expect too for X70 guts in a new body !! The DVX200 could do a reasonable job of replacing either so is still of interest to me.

 

[Danilo Del Tufo]

And the DVX200 has 4K 60P. The Sony tops out at 4K 30P.

Probably the weakest point of FS5, but you can shot 50/60p in FHD and mix the footage as the samples showed by Sony. The result seems quite nice.

 

[mattjeh]

For all its features, the DVX200 is tough to beat at its price. You could opt for the FS5, but you'll spend about $2,000 more, then add more money for the lenses. And both will give you 4K at 8-bit, 100mbps 4:2:0. And the DVX200 has 4K 60P. The Sony tops out at 4K 30P.

The one thing the Sony does have is HD 50mbps, 10-bit 4:2:2 internal recording. For broadcast use, that's a very big plus. And it has the bigger S35 sensor.

Personally, I could use the FS5, because I used to own an FS100, and I kept all the lenses and adapters. And I own a PMW300, so the batteries can be used as well. I already have a big cost saving, but if you don't have these items, the DVX200 looks mighty tempting. It still does to me, too.

Nail on the head. For someone like myself transitioning from an ex1, the costs of the lenses above what is an otherwise acceptable price for the camera body, makes the idea untenable. Although I'd save a little as the ex1 uses the same batteries, the total expenditure is way more.

I think that Sony camera will be a winner, Dvx200 has a lot of compromises, but its 13x zoom lens is good, while Sony has just 6x zoom lens (SELP18105G) which is almost good for various shooting scenarios.

'Almost good', best review ever. I had the same thought really, it would require a better zoom lens which would cost £1800 or so.

Also, is anyone else bummed that Sony didn't announce an update to the Z100? All the same features of the previous z100 but with a larger-not-crappy-in-low-light-sensor. I am.

 

[Josh Bass]

But what about the issues I mentioned above? Are we still expecting those to be solved come ship time or has that train sailed? Those things would be dealbreakers for me. Maybe it's like the XL2 where the out of the box/default settings are ass ugly, and you need a nice custom preset dialed in even for basic ENG run n gun (the XL2 had many of the same issues but could look very nice when treated properly)?

 

[mattjeh]

But what about the issues I mentioned above? Are we still expecting those to be solved come ship time or has that train sailed? Those things would be dealbreakers for me. Maybe it's like the XL2 where the out of the box/default settings are ass ugly, and you need a nice custom preset dialed in even for basic ENG run n gun (the XL2 had many of the same issues but could look very nice when treated properly)?

I guess we won't know until we have it signed off that the colour science is final. I too am a bit worried as some of the skin tones in the official panasonic video (the woman in the wedding dress scenes) look poor.

 

[Ron Evans]

Probably the weakest point of FS5, but you can shot 50/60p in FHD and mix the footage as the samples showed by Sony. The result seems quite nice.

My need is to shoot 60P QFHD so that I can crop/pan/zoom and mix with other cameras shooting HD 60P in a HD project. It works fine with my FDR-AX1 but would like a better sensor for low light etc. FS5 would have been great if it had 60P QFHD !!!

 

[Mike Harvey]

B&H has it listed on their website now for $5,600 USD without lens, and $6,100 with 18-100 f/4 lens. Not going to lie, it's tempting. Without lens, then with the $1k Sony E-mount 18-200 f/3.5-6.3 (which has a zoom function), you're looking at $6.600 with roughly the same lens performance as the DVX200.

The DVX200's price is hard to beat, and it's a better jack of all trade's camera... but man, if you're an AF100 owner with a bunch invested in non-m4/3 lenses, I don't know how this wouldn't look appealing to you.

 

[True North]

Also, is anyone else bummed that Sony didn't announce an update to the Z100? All the same features of the previous z100 but with a larger-not-crappy-in-low-light-sensor. I am.

They screwed up on more than just low light on the Z100. They use such a high bit rate and only sell up to 128GB SQD card that sell for $700 + USD....very silly. Should have offered more bit rates for 4K. Why wouldn't they include the same 150 Mbps option that they give you on the AX1

The 4K prosumer camcorder market is, in my opinion, still wide open for someone to steal. I thought the DVX200 might be the one to do it but the sensor size presents some limitations on building a lens with a fast constant aperture and decent zoom range (16x +). It still might be the best overall option in the fixed lens/camcorder market but I guess we will have to wait and see. Someone has to find the right sweet spot on sensor size. I think the almost 1/2" sensor on the AX1 and Z100 are the right size but for some reason they crammed 18.9 Total megapixels with 8.8 effective megapixels.....Why ? I am not a sensor designer but that seems to be a lot of unnecessary and wasted pixels and its at the expense of good low light performance.

Seems like Sony likes the 1" sensor size. Give me a BSI 1" Sensor (12 Total megapixels, 8.8 mp effective) that shoots 4K 60P Internally with a 16x (or better) zoom lens at f/2 to f/2.8. Offer the use multiple bit rates and a media storage options that make sense (i.e. SSD etc..).

 

[Barry_Green]

-Camera definitely does not seem to lack for sharpness! Everything looks tack sharp to me. HOWEVER, it is a very "EX1-style" sharpness in my opinion--that is, visible lines around contrasty edges. Can the sharpening be reduced to give it a more "organic" look a la C100, etc.? I believe that heavy line sharpening is one of the icky things we associate with the "video look" we're all (mostly) trying to get away from.

That video was shot in VLOG-L. No sharpening is done in camera. All sharpening you see in that footage was done in post.

For normal video shooting, you have extensive control over the in-camera sharpening, and can turn it all the way off if desired.

-My impression from the start and even with the newest footage is colors always look undersaturated, except for reds (which are almost OVERsaturated). Anyone else see that?

This footage was shot on an earlier version of the camera. VLOG-L used to put out a very muted color palette, and required substantial saturation adjustment in post. The newer firmware (just received) ups the saturation that is recorded by VLOG-L.

 

[harddrive]

I think the almost 1/2" sensor on the AX1 and Z100 are the right size but for some reason they crammed 18.9 Total megapixels with 8.8 effective megapixels.....Why ? I am not a sensor designer but that seems to be a lot of unnecessary and wasted pixels and its at the expense of good low light performance.

Quite simply because it was a sensor they already had and all the design effort was already paid for. For diffraction reasons alone that size of sensor is nowhere near ideal when you get up to UHD resolutions.

Seems like Sony likes the 1" sensor size. Give me a BSI 1" Sensor (12 Total megapixels, 8.8 mp effective) that shoots 4K 60P Internally with a 16x (or better) zoom lens at f/2 to f/2.8. Offer the use multiple bit rates and a media storage options that make sense (i.e. SSD etc..).

What I was expecting the FS5 to be was fundamentally the front end and lens of the new RX10, and the back end of the Z100. It didn't arrive at IBC, but I'm still expecting to see something along those lines sometime soon. All the technology exists separately (though the lens needs a more video-friendly servo!), it's just a question of bringing such into the one package.

 

[Josh Bass]

thanks Barry. i will stop bitching about these issues til cam is actually released and we start seeing real production model footage, cause it seems like even this late in the game we're still seeing stuff from earlier builds that may be creating bad impressions. I hope samples start flooding in when the cam IS released and we can see what it can really do. i will keep watching the footage people put out and hope yo see better stuff. as for all the Log this and Log that I dont see myself using those very often if at all, just regular profiles.

 

[philiplipetz]

thanks Barry. i will stop bitching about these issues til cam is actually released and we start seeing real production model footage, cause it seems like even this late in the game we're still seeing stuff from earlier builds that may be creating bad impressions. I hope samples start flooding in when the cam IS released and we can see what it can really do. i will keep watching the footage people put out and hope yo see better stuff. as for all the Log this and Log that I dont see myself using those very often if at all, just regular profiles.

Then why did Panasonic put this footage on their website? That is either a great blunder or indicating they will stand behind the demonstrated quality.

How can we take delivery of our preorders if any complaint about quality is met with "tomorrow it will be right" and we are told not to believe anything we see? Seriously I really appreciate Barry's comments but they are starting to go against what Panasonic is releasing, and releasing in a few weeks.

Panasonic marketing has demonstrated that they are not giving the DVX200 the launch it deserves, but we have to work with what we are given, not pray that things will change.

I accept Barry's statement that V Log has changed, but that does not change V Logs response to low light.

I really am not trolling but expressing the anguish that the paradoxical nature of the information flow is creating in those of us who preordered.

I have preordered three Canon pro level video cameras in the past five years and never once did I have any of the cognitive dissonance that I have experienced with the DVX200. They were always what we thought they would be. No prelease samples that were clearly unacceptable. Whatever we saw just reaffirmed the preorder. Perhaps that is why Canon can get away with being behind the technology curve. I want a tool that makes my life simpler, not not more complicated.

 

[mattjeh]

I am still seriously weighing up the FS5 as an option now, even though the dvx200 still ticks so many of my boxes, and in all honesty I would prefer a fixed lens. But I just can't get over the beauty of the 'free spirit' sony film released today (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNYze2GNy1g), the quality difference between the pro dvx200 video recently released is stark (the one with the motorbike and the wedding). I know that the colour science isn't finished yet and I'll give it that, but when the price jump up to the FS5 isn't uber-massive, and it still has a small form factor, I'm very tempted.

So a question for Barry and all the guys and gals who have been hands on with the dvx200. Do you think the dvx200 can get images that are close to 'free spirit'?

 

[Danilo Del Tufo]

Do you think the dvx200 can get images that are close to 'free spirit'?

I think it's not possible achieve the same image quality because the sensor is different, and color science of Sony is already finished I believe. I dunno if Barry or other that have prerelease camera can confirm that, it would be nice if Barry say something about "Free Spirit" video, and if he liked.