AG-DVX200 4K Large-Sensor Handheld Camcorder

[Noel Evans]

Yay. More overexposed, youtube compressed footage to ridicule!

But more seriously, how could you as a videographer post footage that poorly overexposed? I would never let the footage leave the edit bay 'cause it's obvious the fault is with my work.

EDIT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEqKZu86Syc
Nevermind. Apparently overexposing footage is this videographer's calling card.

What this clip highlights is:

a/ you will need to learn how to correctly expose V log-L on this camera. However, to be honest that won't take a science degree or years of testing either. I was able to get it right after a few hours of use and seeing where things landed me. This was also true when I shot for the first time on the Varicam35. It was also true the first time I shot on Alexa. This was also true the first time I shot on a C300. This was also true the first time I shot on a ...

b/ you will need to learn to grade any footage shot on V Log-L. Repeat the rest of A here.

It's 12 stops.

I really like a lot of the images I was able to capture with the camera. There was a fair chunk of feedback I sent to Panasonic as well. Please note, as previously stated elsewhere the camera I had, had a lens issue left side it had picked up along the line of hand build somewhere - you can clearly see it here, however I find this image I shot very pleasing. This was also a very early build. Open image in a new window to see it UHD.

Shot on Vlog-L.

 

[harddrive]

It was, in the "HD Specialty" category, the same category as the Red One fell into. It was deemed acceptable in that category if using a 50mbps 4:2:2 recorder.

I think what you refer to is described in the EBU document as "HD Tier SP", and is defined by the EBU ( https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/r/r118.pdf ) as :

2.3 HD Tier SP
Specialist or special effects cameras including very high frame rate camera, minicams, macro cameras etc.
• minimum active sensor size at least 1280 x 720 three sensor or 1920 x 1080 single sensor,
• minimum 1280 x 720 output resolution,
• see Table 1 for codec requirements
• minimum 3x 1/4" sensor size (1/3" preferred).
Cameras that do not meet some of the minimum HD requirements can be included in the SP Tier if they offer a unique facility as they may represent the best that can be done with current technology.
This does mean however that a camera can be removed from the Tier if another matching the operational specifications of the current version meets the requirements of HD Tier 1 or HD Tier 2L.

According to the BBCs own tests, the AF100 doesn't meet the minimum resolution requirement - they measured 1210x680 with high spatial aliasing, quite well short of the minimum 1280x720 needed to properly come into this category.

The only "unique facility" that may have enabled the AF100 to still qualify would seem to be the ability to give shallow depth of field - but it had barely been released before the FS100 came along, more able (with it's bigger s35 chip) to give such and additionally able to meet the basic Tier resolution requirements.

A friend who does some camerawork for the BBC tells me that for lower budget large sensor work, the camera they preferred (and bought a number of) was the C300, and which is Tiered level 1. He believes it therefore more likely that an AF100, even with external recorder, is only likely to be rated HD Tier 3, not Tier SP, because of the final sentence in the quote above.

Consequently, then any such use of an AF100 for a European broadcaster is subject to these restrictions:

Broadcasters will usually limit the amount of Tier 3 material allowed in an HD programme to around 33% and may restrict the type of scene the cameras are used to acquire.

I believe the BBC has a level lower than 33%, and this includes all Standard Def material etc, as well as archive from whatever source.

 

[R Hudson]

I am so beyond caring about that. How about we discuss the DVX 200?

 

[Ebrahim Saadawi]

The fact that it doesn't record 50mbps 4:2:2 8bit is something that will result in the camera selling 20-30% of what it would, it could have been ''the'' c300 broadcast killer.

I am not talking about 10bit, that's understandable, and even 4:2:0 is fine and most viewers will see no differences, but it just eliminates it from being tested and bought by its largest potential user base.

50mbps 4:2:2 8bit 1080p. That's it, and it'll be one of the most successful cameras by Panasonic. Come on.

Without it, a tiny market is waiting. A few wedding videographers, a few web documentarians, and a few web event shooters. That's it. Cinema, broadcast documentaries/sports/event/conferences/news/TVShows/realityShows, all gone for that tiny spec. Even if it's not fair for the image but that's just how it works

 

[fastfinger]

What this clip highlights is:

a/ you will need to learn how to correctly expose V log-L on this camera. However, to be honest that won't take a science degree or years of testing either. I was able to get it right after a few hours of use and seeing where things landed me. This was also true when I shot for the first time on the Varicam35. It was also true the first time I shot on Alexa. This was also true the first time I shot on a C300. This was also true the first time I shot on a ...

b/ you will need to learn to grade any footage shot on V Log-L. Repeat the rest of A here.

It's 12 stops.

I really like a lot of the images I was able to capture with the camera. There was a fair chunk of feedback I sent to Panasonic as well. Please note, as previously stated elsewhere the camera I had, had a lens issue left side it had picked up along the line of hand build somewhere - you can clearly see it here, however I find this image I shot very pleasing. This was also a very early build. Open image in a new window to see it UHD.

Shot on Vlog-L.

Would love to see more full res stills from video before youtube compression.

 

[TheReverend]

The fact that it doesn't record 50mbps 4:2:2 8bit is something that will result in the camera selling 20-30% of what it would, it could have been ''the'' c300 broadcast killer.

I am not talking about 10bit, that's understandable, and even 4:2:0 is fine and most viewers will see no differences, but it just eliminates it from being tested and bought by its largest potential user base.

50mbps 4:2:2 8bit 1080p. That's it, and it'll be one of the most successful cameras by Panasonic. Come on.

Without it, a tiny market is waiting. A few wedding videographers, a few web documentarians, and a few web event shooters. That's it. Cinema, broadcast documentaries/sports/event/conferences/news/TVShows/realityShows, all gone for that tiny spec. Even if it's not fair for the image but that's just how it works

Am I the only one that doesn't buy this? The BBC does have a tier list and for that specific broadcaster, they restrict. But as far as I've seen with most news stations, cable channels, and events etc., there is not nearly as stringent a criteria as the BBC. Multiple stations here in the Twin Cities don't even have a way to import long-form HD files into their systems. I know I've tried.

Most footage and material is based off it's content and how it's shot, NOT the codec color bit depth. Make great content, it'll get air time.

edit:
thats not to say I don't agree with you. The camera should have come with a 8bit 4.2.2 mode for 1080p.

 

[Ebrahim Saadawi]

It's the influence and reputation. I don't buy it either that broadcast requires 4:2:2, a GH4 image or C100 is miles ahead of enough for any HD broadcast, but it is what it is. The C300 sold the largest portion of their C300s to broadcasters because the EBU saw that 50mbps 422 8bit codec therefore tested and approved it and the entire world followed. Now the dvx200, will not even be considered. It will be used by broadcasters just like the 5D, GH4 and even 550D and such are used, not C300 rival as a broadcast HD acquisition standard.

It's a very peculiar omission that 422 HD, closes down a huge door. It might be a hardware limitation we don't actually know.

 

[stoneinapond]

What this clip highlights is:

a/ you will need to learn how to correctly expose V log-L on this camera. However, to be honest that won't take a science degree or years of testing either. I was able to get it right after a few hours of use and seeing where things landed me. This was also true when I shot for the first time on the Varicam35. It was also true the first time I shot on Alexa. This was also true the first time I shot on a C300. This was also true the first time I shot on a ...

b/ you will need to learn to grade any footage shot on V Log-L. Repeat the rest of A here.

It's 12 stops.

I really like a lot of the images I was able to capture with the camera. There was a fair chunk of feedback I sent to Panasonic as well. Please note, as previously stated elsewhere the camera I had, had a lens issue left side it had picked up along the line of hand build somewhere - you can clearly see it here, however I find this image I shot very pleasing. This was also a very early build. Open image in a new window to see it UHD.

Shot on Vlog-L.

Smart advice. And I do like the image. Full of delicate detail.

Thanks.

 

[Matthew Allard ACS]

I have only posted two parts of my review so far, there are 4 more to go.

 

[Matthew Allard ACS]

Not quite sure how this V-Log L image is over exposed. Panasonic currently has virtually zero information about how to expose or use V-Log L properly in their user manual. The whole point of my tests are to show how the V-Log L responds when you do try and push it and whether you can recover any information. It is important for people to know what happens when you do that. Exposing everything correctly doesn't show me how a camera behaves in a real world environment. "USER ERROR. Mr. Allard didn't understand how VLOG works, and so (I am 99% certain) he grossly overexposed the images he was testing -- and yes grossly overexposed images will clip, of course they will." Nice personal attack by the way. Shows a lot of class.

 

[Barry_Green]

Not quite sure how this V-Log L image is over exposed.

I wasn't referring to that image. I was referring specifically to where you said the images looked clipped, even though the waveform didn't show clipping. No personal attack was implied or intended. You are absolutely correct that there is little to no proper information out there on how to expose VLOG-L right, I was agreeing with you and then pointed out how unusual the VLOG-al is going to be to work with.

Sorry you took it personal, it was never intended that way.

 

[True North]

If you want 50/60P UHD there aren't many replaceable lens options either. When kitted out to actually work I am not sure there are any. The FS7 or Ursa Mini with lens batteries and media I think are all over $10K or more. I have the FDR-AX1 and I would like something with better low light performance without spending over $10K. I see little difference in low light performance between my FDR-AX100 1" sensor and my NX30U 1/3" sensor so will wait and see what the real performance is for the DVX200. My suspicions are it will be much like the 1/3" pro products when one factors in the slower lens and increased pixel density. I have almost come to the conclusion that to satisfy my needs I will look for an APS-C sensor. I am sure Sony could make a 4K/UHD version of the FS100 or NEX-EA50 and maybe Panasonic with the DVX200 will push them into this approach where it sits in the price point of the market. Both FS100 and my FDR-AX1 have been discontinued so there would be no conflict in the NXCam range. The NEX-EA50M is about $2600 and the premium for UHD looks to be about $500 ( difference for the 1" cam models ).

I was going to throw in the 4K 50/60P requirement as well but then, as you have noted, the list gets exceedingly thin.

I own a GH4 and if Barry's tests are correct and the GH4 with a 2.8 lens beats out the DVX200 then virtually all of the "low light performance" crowd are going to be VERY disappointed with the DVX200. People complain about the GH4 with a 2.8 lens as it is. With lens Apertures in the mid 1's or better, the GH4 works quite decently in less than ideally lit situations. It will never be an A7S but that camera is a bit of an anomaly. I am betting the GH5 and the next round of 4K camera from Sony and maybe even Samsung will offer internal 4K 50/60P.

There is no question in my mind that the lens on the DVX200 is what is going to kill it for a lot of people. That being said, we are now approaching 1500 posts so clearly this camera works for a number of people.

I believe we are at a technological road block right now for prosumer priced 4K camcorders that can perform decently in low light. The wider aperture lenses on smaller sensors are not enough to compensate for the extra pixels that need to be crammed into that small sensor surface area.

The larger surface of the bigger sensors allow the potential for larger photosites which in turn can collect more light but the cost of glass to work with the larger sensors that have a decent zoom range and with a wide enough aperture is likely to be very costly and physically unwieldy to make.

There is no getting around the lens challenges but I believe that eventually we will have smaller sensors that can allow for higher ISO's or Gain with minimal or unnoticeable noise. Should be an interesting couple of years for sensor technology.

 

[Matthew Allard ACS]

No problems Barry, anytime a new camera is being tested there is always confusion and mis information. I asked Panasonic directly for information and charts regarding V-Log L and I was told they couldn't release any. I also agree that there is little point sending a camera out for testing if your not ready to provide all the correct information to test it correctly. I tried asking what would be the best Scene Profile for low light/high ISO performance and they told me that they couldn't tell me. I am doing my best to test the camera in real world environments and to see operationally how it goes. My job as a reviewer is to be as open and honest with my findings as possible. I don't want to sugar coat anything. As you said before though, people should be aware that the actual production version that ships may well be different.

 

[Barry_Green]

No problems Barry, anytime a new camera is being tested there is always confusion and mis information. I asked Panasonic directly for information and charts regarding V-Log L and I was told they couldn't release any. I also agree that there is little point sending a camera out for testing if your not ready to provide all the correct information to test it correctly. I tried asking what would be the best Scene Profile for low light/high ISO performance and they told me that they couldn't tell me. I am doing my best to test the camera in real world environments and to see operationally how it goes. My job as a reviewer is to be as open and honest with my findings as possible. I don't want to sugar coat anything. As you said before though, people should be aware that the actual production version that ships may well be different.

No problem at all. I recognize that you're doing the best you can, with the limited information that is available. I know more than most folks because I am working o. The book to explain everything about the DVX200, and as such I have seen many firmware versions and discovered several things that just aren't ready yet. I know you were assured that the camera you are testing is "near final", but -- I can assure you that just isn't true. The hardware is near final, yes, but the software isn't. It has changed and will continue to change over the next month or so, and some of those changes may make notable changes in the imaging. I sent you a PM a week or so ago, to warn you about one or two things that you shouldn't bother testing yet because I had already confirmed that those elements weren't final.

I think what you're doing is fantastic and I appreciate the thoroughness. I just wish that the camera was fully ready for such tests to be performed on it; unfortunately the current version isn't quite there yet. That is not your fault, you're doing the best you can, it is just that the camera isn't yet ready for that level of examination. It will likely be a whole different story four weeks from now.

 

[Josh Bass]

I'm sorry. . .I may be confusing this with something regarding another camera, but I swear I read something about viewfinder lag? Is that normal? Seems kinda messed up. Seeing something in the viewfinder lag at a different time than it's happening in the real world seems like it would be problematic.

 

[Noel Evans]

Would love to see more full res stills from video before youtube compression.

Last one for now - don't have anytime for anymore as Im on a tight deadline and off to Japan next week.

These are all jpeg compressed by the way.

Again, you can see that lens issue left side of frame - but the rest is there.

 

[Ebrahim Saadawi]

Noel: thank you for these Jpegs. Good image but I can't help noticing how it looks to have digital sharpening plus quite poor noise reduction on top of that. Very apparent even in Matthews images. Is there a setting to turn them off in LOG? I hate that sharpnening aesthetic.

 

[DLD]

... I believe we are at a technological road block right now for prosumer priced 4K camcorders that can perform decently in low light. The wider aperture lenses on smaller sensors are not enough to compensate for the extra pixels that need to be crammed into that small sensor surface area.

The larger surface of the bigger sensors allow the potential for larger photosites which in turn can collect more light but the cost of glass to work with the larger sensors that have a decent zoom range and with a wide enough aperture is likely to be very costly and physically unwieldy to make.

There is no getting around the lens challenges but I believe that eventually we will have smaller sensors that can allow for higher ISO's or Gain with minimal or unnoticeable noise. Should be an interesting couple of years for sensor technology.

There are sort of two current solutions to it - one is the Back Side Illumination (BSI), which Sony has began to use on even their full frame sensors (A7RII) but which seems off-limit to Panasonic at the moment. The other option is the "clear/white" pixel in the so-called RGBC filter, which lets the light through. That technology has been bandied about for several years now and has been deployed by Aptina, OmniVision, Google and Sony. However, this approach has side effects and, to my knowledge, has not been used anywhere beside the smartphones.

No problems Barry, anytime a new camera is being tested there is always confusion and mis information. I asked Panasonic directly for information and charts regarding V-Log L and I was told they couldn't release any. I also agree that there is little point sending a camera out for testing if your not ready to provide all the correct information to test it correctly. I tried asking what would be the best Scene Profile for low light/high ISO performance and they told me that they couldn't tell me. I am doing my best to test the camera in real world environments and to see operationally how it goes. My job as a reviewer is to be as open and honest with my findings as possible. I don't want to sugar coat anything. As you said before though, people should be aware that the actual production version that ships may well be different.

Hey, Matt, I think you write great reviews. That Alexa65 piece was top notch (and many, many others as well). Keep up the good job.

 

[Mike Harvey]

I don't know how many of you all are gamers, but I was in on the Alpha/Beta/User research for HUGE current Playstation/Xbox game, and now that I have a couple of friends who work for the developer, I got in on the beta for a major upcoming expansion pack for it, and have been added to the permanent user research list. The NDA pretty much tells me I can tell I what I just told you, and that's it. I can't share any of the testing experience, the game experience... nothing. And I understand why, because everything I've seen was unfinished and often unpolished, and was only for finding bugs and giving feedback. If anything were to leak, it could be detrimental to sales (because, you know, it's not the finished product).

Now that I've had a bunch of beta testing/user research experience for a major product, this whole pre-release stuff with the DVX200 kinda blows my mind... I'm really surprised there is so much footage being allowed out into the wild, and a lot of it is less that mediocre. If I were Panasonic, I'd be slapping NDA's on everyone, and heavily restricting who could release footage to the Barry's, Noel's, and Mathew's of the world... and I'd be giving you guys a whole heck of a lot more information on how to use the camera. Seeing Noel's great stills, then seeing the craptastic swimsuit model footage has me shaking my head in disbelief. And I don't think it's doing justice to Mathew's thorough review to not give him a more complete camera to work with, and more information on how to use it.

Seeing Noel's stills and Mathew's ongoing review do leave me excited for this camera, but man Panasonic hasn't been doing themselves any favors.

 

[unami]

i'm with most of you guys when it comes to 4:2:2 - and i also think, they could at least sell twice as much cams with it. some broadcasters just want 4:2:2 (that works with their internal software) with a small footprint (50-100 mbps). and they are going to buy cameras that do that internally and not fiddle around with external recorders that add bulk, another possibility for error and fat bitrates that take up more space and need longer to copy.

the dvx200 reminds me a lot of the af100. at the time it came out there was no comparable camera in the market. but as soon, as the competition got it's act together, there was little interest in the af100, i guess. (i'd really be interested, how much they sold, compared to a c100/c300 or fs700 over compareable timeframes). i still like it for it's "panasonic colors", and i'm probably going to stick with it for a while and wait if there's any competition for the dvx200 coming out.

i'd be happy to spend more money on a large chip cam with a wider/faster (possibly removable) lens & 4:2:2, but there isn't one afaik. the sony 28-135 "ENG" zoom lens for the fs7 is not wide enough for run & gun, so you have to change lenses anyway, unless you want to spend € 30.000 on a canon or fuji zoom lens (which still don't have that great of a zoom range). also, it's power-zoom function seems not to be working very good. (and the 18-200 seems even worse for ENG-purposes)

the dvx200 sounds like a good cam for the price, but i'm afraid it will have a hard time finding it's market. not good enough features for the broadcast-crowd. wedding & event-guys can get a cheaper small-chip cam, that does mostly the same for a much lower price (so they can get a gh4 as b-cam). ambitious amateurs and young filmmakers on a budget will go with blackmagic. so that leaves small independent documentary-productions who do their own editing & post in a shooting situation where changing lenses on a c300 or fs7 is not desired.

i'm not saying that i'm not going to buy a dvx200 anyway eventually, but i'm at least waiting a year if maybe sony comes out with a better lens or canon drops a cf300 successor with a larger chip. or the consumer division of panasonic delivers something like an af100 successor. or the pro division makes something like an dvx250/hpx cam.

if i had to guess, i'd say, they'll sell less dvx200 than af100s - which might or might not be a problem for panasonic.

on a side note, i don't have that much problems with the marketing. sure, it could be done better, and yes, they should show us the best the cam can do, not let us see some overexposed and badly edited plastic-boobs dancing. but i will look at the final reviews when the camera is finished and enjoy the teasers and the lively discussion here until then. i think professionals can stand this footage without attributing all the faults to a not yet finished camera. and anybody else is not going to hang around these forums anyway - or buy a camera for €4000+