AG-DVX200 4K Large-Sensor Handheld Camcorder

I think the Kell factor is true for scanning CRT systems but not sure that is the case for discrete pixel based systems with no scanning beam where the data comes from a CMOS sensor and is actually a matrix ( 1920x540 for each field ) to start with.
That's not how a chip is scanned for interlace, though. Assuming 1920x1080 chips, then if we consider any single column, you theoretically could indeed read lines 1,3,5 etc to form the odd field, and 2,4,6 etc to form the even - but that's not how it's normally done.

In reality the first field is formed by summing 1+2,3+4, 5+6 etc and the next by 2+3,4+5, 6+7 etc. The two main reasons for doing that are to avoid interline twitter (where a white line on one field, with black lines either side on the opposite field would flicker badly at frame rate) and to improve sensitivity as all the photosites accumulate light all the time. The summation means the signal component adds, the noise component doesn't. Same principle as pixel binning. If it was read as you suggested, each photosite would only be accumulating for half the time.

Taken as a whole, then it follows that for resolution purposes 1+2 will not be the same as 2+3, and neither will that be the same as 3+4. So it should then seem logical to realise that the eventual resolution will be better than 540 - but can't be as good as 1080? It must lie in between the two - yes? I can't remember the maths behind it, but believe the theory predicts 1080/sq rt 2 - about 763 lines. This gives mathematical validity to the observed value of about 0.7 as a Kell Factor - it actually predicts it should be 1/sqrt2 - 0.707.

Your same source indicates that for CCD/CMOS sensors and flat panel displays the Kell factor can be as high as 0.9. It is still subject though so one could be optimistic and say 1.0 especially for the oversampled sensors that are now used in cameras !!!
Originally, Kell factor solely applied to the effect due to video interlacing, but it's meaning has broadened (confusingly, IMO) in the digital world. Originally, it solely referred to how much softening interlace caused - but as that article says, it is now being used to mean how much "real" resolution a digitally sampling display will give relevant to the maximum that may be expected. And no matter whether there is a progressive scan or simply being used for still imaging. Hence, for the same 1920x1080 chip, then if scanned progressively, the max resolution that may be expected is not 1080 lines but 972 if a factor of 0.9 is used. This is why the real resolution of the 1080 system is normally taken to be (even with progressive scan) "about 1000 lpph".

There is a lot more to the topic that could be said, and one factor not so far mentioned is how perceived resolution changes with movement? Practically, it's a good enough approximation to conclude that overall, in terms of resolution, there's not a lot to choose for vertical resolution between 1080i and 720p.

As far as the adoption of HDTV systems about 10-15 years ago, it really needs to thought about more in terms of "1080 or 720" than "progressive or interlace", and there are two very differing cases. For fast motion, the choice at the time was 1080i/25 or 720p/50. For 25fps, it was 1080p/25 or 720p/25.

In the first case, the difference wasn't too clear cut - though generally most people would probably give 720p/50 the edge for broadcast, if only for the compression advantages. In the second case there was no competition - 1080p/25 is vastly superior to 720p/25.

Which is why channels broadcasting mainly sport opted for 720p/50 originally. But because realistically any one channel had to go for 720 *OR* 1080, most channels went the 1080 route if they were showing a mix of 25 and 50fps motion - not because of 1080i v 720p, but because 1080p/25 is so much better than 720p/25.

Interlace was great for its time and modern technology can display this very well. I agree though its time to move on to full progressive acquisition and in high frame rates too as I like the smooth motion. I hope I am still around to see 8K at 120fps or more. I want to shoot video that looks like I am still there when I watch it later.
All agreed. There is little doubt that it's unfortunate 1080p/50(60) wasn't a viable option when the decisions had to be made.

As far as the future goes, then if 8K ever does came around then I hope 24 or 25 fps is totally forgotten about! With the screen sizes that 8K would make any difference for, 24 fps would give such a headache inducing jerkiness as to be virtually unwatchable. I saw the demo footage in London at the time of the 2012 Olympics, and the point was made there that any system really needed a framerate of about 100-120 fps to avoid such. (I think the demo was 60 fps.)
 
FYI, I've just received notification that The DVX200 Book is now available for free download. I'll copy the press release here.

NEWARK, NJ (December 10, 2015) – Panasonic has announced the immediate availability of Barry Green's A Guide to the Panasonic AG-DVX200 Camera, a comprehensive reference e-book for customers and users of the new AG-DVX200PJ 4K large-sensor, 4/3” handheld camcorder. The book can be downloaded free at http://info.panasonic.com/dvx200-ebook.html.



A Guide to the Panasonic AG-DVX200 Camera is an interactive digital book examining all the DVX200PJ's features, settings and modes, as well as tutorials on some of the most common situations users will face. The book demystifies the functionality of all the DVX200PJ's features, and explains when and why to use specific settings for best results. An extensive section of tutorials and essays covers a range of subjects from the simple to the advanced, including explanations on the benefits of 4K, working with the camcorder's variable frame rates, using its VLOG-L mode, and how to use the waveform monitor and vectorscope. The full-color, 260+-page book has an abundance of photos, screen-shots and video examples of menu functions.


Barry Green is an Emmy®-award-winning producer with four Emmy nominations for writing and producing television commercials and public service announcements. His technical background includes 13 years as a professional computer programmer and producer for Westwood Studios, creating some of the most popular video games in history. Greenwrites and produces award-winning corporate and industrial films, commercials, screenplays and films for Fiercely Independent Films Inc. and tours extensively as a public speaker and instructor. He also serves as partner and moderator for www.DVXUser.com, one of the world’s largest online communities for filmmakers, shooters, and content producers of all types.


About the AG-DVX200PJ
The DVX200PJ is the first in a new generation of large sensor, multi-format professional camcorders capable of capturing 4K/UHD, HD and SD, including cinematic DCI 4K 4096x2160. The camcorder is optimized for 4K/HD production, with stunning bokeh effects and a V-Log L curve (measured at 12 stops) emulating the natural grey-scale rendition of the VariCam 35. The DVX200PJ incorporates a newly-developed 4/3” large-format MOS sensor with high sensitivity of F11, and offers variable frame rate recording from 2fps to 120fps in 1080p mode, enhancing the camcorder’s utility in sports and VFX production. The handheld 4K camcorder offers an array of professional features including a newly-designed Leica Dicomar 4K F2.8~F4.5 zoom lens (4K/24p: 29.5 mm ~ 384.9 mm, HD: 28 mm ~ 365.3mm, 35 mm equivalent) with shallow depth-of-field, time-code in/out, 3G HD-SDI and HDMI 2.0 (4K) video outs (4:2:2 10-bit video), dual XLR audio inputs and 10 programmable user buttons.


For more information about Panasonic professional video products, visit www.panasonic.com/broadcast or contact Panasonic at 877-803-8492.


Panasonic Solutions for Business
Panasonic delivers reliable business technology solutions that connect data with decision makers to drive better outcomes—for our customers and our customers’ customers. Panasonic engineers reliable products and solutions that help to create, capture and deliver data of all types, where, when and how it is needed. The complete suite of Panasonic professional solutions for government and commercial enterprises of all sizes addresses unified business communications, mobile computing, security and surveillance, retail point-of-sale, office productivity, visual communications (projectors, displays, digital signage), and 4K and HD video production. Panasonic solutions for business are delivered by Panasonic System Communications Company of North America, Division of Panasonic Corporation of North America, the principal North American subsidiary of Panasonic Corporation.


All brand and company/product names are trademarks or registered trademarks of the respective companies. All specifications are subject to change without notice. Information on Panasonic solutions for business can be obtained by calling 877-803-8492 or at us.panasonic.com/business-solutions.


About Panasonic Corporation of North America
Panasonic Corporation of North America provides a broad line of digital and other electronics products and solutions for consumer, business and industrial use. The company is the principal North American subsidiary of Osaka, Japan-based Panasonic Corporation and the hub of Panasonic's U.S. branding, marketing, sales, service and R&D operations. In Interbrand's 2014 annual "Best Global Green Brands" report, Panasonic ranked number five overall and the top electronics brand in the report. As part of continuing sustainability efforts, Panasonic Corporation of North America relocated its headquarters to a new facility, adjacent to Newark Penn Station in Newark, NJ. It is the first newly constructed office tower in Newark to earn both LEED Platinum and Gold certifications from the U.S. Green Building Council.


Learn more about Panasonic at us.panasonic.com/news.
 
I was wondering if anyone has found the manual zoom to be hard to control. When attempting slow zooms, I find the ring to be quite sticky, making my zooms choppy. I realize that the servo zoom is always an option, but has anyone else struggled with this? I'm considering giving panasonic a call.

Brad, did you get your cam back from repair? How is your ring zoom now?
 
In the brief testing I did between the PX270 and DVX200, both on default scene file 1, the DVX200 was way, way cleaner when the light got low. At 4000 or 8000 ISO (vs. 12 to 18db on the PX270), IIRC, the DVX200 was a dramatically cleaner picture. Might give that a try and see what you find?

Hi Barry, I found the same thing. Although I have always thought the 270 got a raw deal by Panasonic. Potentially great camera, plagued by the worst grain I have ever seen on a pro unit. I bought the 200 and sold the 270. The 200 is far better at every ISO than the 270... actually, the 200 at ISO 2000 is better than 0DB on the 270 in the shadow areas.
 
Pancam... I have to hand it to you... you didn't give up. I hope your camera will be serviced and will work for you. If it doesn't, I hope you can move on and find a camera that will suit your needs. I was in a similar situation with the Panasonic AJ-PX270... terrible grain, unacceptable and well documented. I don't think the 200 will be the same... even out of the box with the original firmware, the 200 was better than the 270. I was beating my head against the wall with the 270, complaining loudly to everyone that would listen... eventually I realized the only course of action was to take the hit, walk away from that camera and move on. Good move for me. I sold the camera to Adorama in NYC, took a loss of a few thousand bucks, and quit magnifying that loss in lost hours of my time. The 270 works for some people, didn't work for me. Anyway, your time is important too... if the serviced 200 is not up to your needs, sell it and spend your time more productively. All the Best of luck brother.
Matt
 
Hi Barry, I found the same thing. Although I have always thought the 270 got a raw deal by Panasonic. Potentially great camera, plagued by the worst grain I have ever seen on a pro unit. I bought the 200 and sold the 270. The 200 is far better at every ISO than the 270... actually, the 200 at ISO 2000 is better than 0DB on the 270 in the shadow areas.

I have not used the DVX200 but I would have to respectfully disagree about the PX270 and noise in the shadows. Yes with some gain on there is noise but at 0db I do not see any noise in the shadows. Cleanest camera I have ever used.
 
Mabou...Thank you very good advice
I see probably wrong, plus some users also, who see the flaws...
my camera somewhere in Germany
I look forward to three weeks of service response ...
Of course all of this is loss of job
 
Funny, this, how one thinks the DVX200 is the noisiest camera ever, while another thinks the title belongs to the PX270, and others find one or both noise-free. It sure does make it hard to choose. The main thing that's becoming clear is that monitors, camera profiles, camera sample variations and even what software you're using for playback all make a big difference in the perception of noise.

I own both and don't find the noise level offensive (or, at 0 dB at least, even really visible) on either one. The DVX200 can handle another stop of gain compared to the PX270 before it starts to get noisy, but this is compensated by the slightly faster lens on the 270, to the extent that they're about equal in low light capability in the end.

But that's just my experience. YMMV (a lot).

- Greg
 
Screen Shot 2015-12-11 at 6.30.50 AM.jpg
I have not used the DVX200 but I would have to respectfully disagree about the PX270 and noise in the shadows. Yes with some gain on there is noise but at 0db I do not see any noise in the shadows. Cleanest camera I have ever used.
Hi Bassman... I wish that were true for all of us 270 users. There was most certainly some kind of random hardware issue with the camera. I spent a lot of time with Panasonic engineers and reps on this one. Panasonic even featured me as one of their pros on the Panasonic 270 webpage. There appeared to be manufacturing issues, but not something that Panasonic would agree to replace my camera. I am friends with quite a few users of the 270 through various user groups, I know of four others who sold the camera because of grain, they all walked away before I did. I wish I had walked earlier because by the time I decided to sell it, B&H told me they weren't interested because of all the returns they had, and Adorama barely bought it for the same reason. I know there are some good units out there, probably more than there are bad units, but for too many of us this otherwise incredible camera had issues. (I have to say, I really miss the sense of security that I had with shooting to P2 cards). I LOVED the 270 in every way except for the grain problem. You can get an idea of what I saw with the 270 in the little screen grab. The grain was so bad across the frame that it even looked a bit out of focus. Like there were ants swarming every scene. This was shot with scene files provided by Panasonic to try to fix the problem. Helped marginally, but it was like trying to paint over rocks... nice paint but the rocks are still there.
 
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Brad, did you get your cam back from repair? How is your ring zoom now?

I actually returned the camera to adorama on monday since I was still on the fence and my 30 days was just about up. I'm going to repurchase from BH to give myself a longer period to tweak my settings and go from there.
 
Hi Bassman... I wish that were true for all of us 270 users. There was most certainly some kind of random hardware issue with the camera.

So, you think this was a sample problem, or one affecting only some part of the production run. I can certainly understand that, but it doesn't mean there's a design problem with the camera. That's reassuring, even if your experience was bad.

- Greg
 
Hopefully my next unit won't have the zoom ring problem.

The B&H floor model has the same zoom ring issues I reported and verified with Panasonic support as occurring on their copy too (rough sticking spot when pressing up on the ring from the bottom).
 
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it is possible that Hungary can not be downloaded the E-Book?
It arrived in the mail, but you can download a blank label
I also see that FTP server ...but nothing
THX
 
The magnified focus assist is not available during recording, but the focus-in-red feature is. That is what causes the red rerectangle around the LCD.

the HIGH SENS mode is not assignable to a User Button. It is something you have to set in the System Mode menu.

We shoot events which means rec is on like 2 hours >> magnified focus assist useless.

I presume "High Sens" mode is not good when there is plenty of light. That is why it is not always on. It definitely should be in user buttons or next to gain knob.
 
We shoot events which means rec is on like 2 hours >> magnified focus assist useless.

I presume "High Sens" mode is not good when there is plenty of light. That is why it is not always on. It definitely should be in user buttons or next to gain knob.

Exactly the same situation here. Not much point having it if it can't be used when you need it on long events (stage shows), with lighting in different scenes means I vary iris between F8.5 and fully open with +20dB of gain.

Cheers,
Vaughan
 
Yes, yes, and yes. In my testing (of prior versions), COARSE would go from minimum to maximum distance by rotating the ring about 15 degrees. FINE would require about 540 degrees to go from minimum to maximum.

I just tested V1.25, and it does appear that COARSE and FINE are behaving identically in this version. Which isn't right. I have filed a report with the factory to get them to look into it.

Barry, it has been more than 3 weeks. Have you heard anything back from the factory on this? I would think there would be some sense of urgency on their part to address a serious manual focusing issue with the camera.

Our usual environment is run n gun shooting and we continue to struggle greatly with having only COARSE focus control over a camera with a 4/3 sensor. (Frankly, I'm surprised that there hasn't been a clamor here among other users to have this firmware issue addressed.)

Based on your experience with a previous firmware, wouldn't it follow that a simple firmware update to include the older code for FINE control would do the trick?

On the happy side, I am pleased with the result of using your recently published SCENE FILES. Thank you.
 
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