AG-CX10, for me, lacks sharp focus when zoomed in

E

ELN614

Well-known member
I just returned the AG-CX-10 I got. I had high hopes with a low bar. I loved my retired AG-DVC30 (standard definition camera) and was hoping it was the HD version of it and it is -- almost. The size was similar and the zoom range was similar- 24x optically which was the reason I bought it. When compared to my AC130/160 it was/is a very soft image when zoomed in about 60 percent and onward. The file I was using was AVCHD 1080p PS (The highest quality 1080p) -- the same file type as my AC160. (so I didn't mix file types on my timeline) Not sure how this is possible since reviews were so glowing.
The image might be sharper using a different file extension type (etc...) but I would expect to be near equal to my older AC130/160. Heck the CX10 has a larger chip. When zoomed in the whole picture seemed like it's shifted and soft. no sharp detail when compared to equal file type from my AC160. When zoomed out it looked fine but my line of work I zoom in on action. And no the camera didn't focus on something else. I had a fence line of at least 50 feet in the picture and none of it looked like it was in 'focus'. Ohh - all footage taken outside with plenty of light.

The things I didn't like about it:
1) Manual White Balancing. It is a royal pain to setup. You push the white balance button and it just rotates through Ach, Bch, Preset. And you need to program some other button (USER1-11) to initiate/make a white balance (and black balance) manual button. And even then I find it off a little. I never really found this camera's white balance user friendly (for this long time Panasonic users.) WHY CAN'T I JUST HOLD IN THE WHITE BALANCE BUTTON AND DO A WHITE BALANCE??????
2) Manual focus when zoomed it is quirky. The ring feel more like a digital thing than an actual lens movement.
3) Some User Buttons are easy to hit when you don't intend to.
4) top handle zoom button is a reallyyyy slowww zoom. This can be a plus if you're looking for a "PBS" zoom but really bad if you're looking for a "MTV" zoom. The side hand grip rocker is fine and remote zoom control through LANC worked fine although I felt it took more time to zoom in verses zooming out.
5) NO battery charger. It is in-camera charging. WHAT?... a "Pro" camera you can only charge in-camera unless you want to spend $200+ on a separate charger. ARG. Stupid, all the other lines the power box has a charging port on it and the ability to run a DC cable to the camera. (side note I don't own a 350) So be prepared to pull the camera out of the bag, evefr time, to charge the battery OR cough up $$ for a charger..
6) DC cable does not lock in place in the camera. ie no pro-connection. PRAY your camera operator doesn't tangle himself up with the cable because it will slide right out of the camera and you'll lose all power. which brings me to #7
7) AC cable plus DC cable all connected to power supply may be only 5 feet in length. Wayyy to short if your tripod is set for more then 4 feet in height. One thing to note: DC cable is built onto the power supply so it won't come off.
8) the Standard definition recording - none. Bad for Deposition videographers which only buy Panasonic because of the time date stamp function built in.
9) the 720p recording is a very low data rate (8Mbps). No 25Mbps Only 8Mbps. I know most people probably won't use 720p but I think some people would use it if it had 25Mbps.
10) The AGC text at the end of the audio levels has nothing to do with Audio levels. WTF?
11) the menu is very confusing. One example:You no long adjust file type/data rate recording under the recording menu. You do it under some other vague menu option.
12) you have to touch the screen to make changes. Which isn't terrible unless you're outside with a lens shade on it and can't do anything without taking the hood off and then struggle to see the screen when you have direct light. The screen is bright but not an ideal thing. And yes you'll be wiping the finger prints off it.
13) to use your mobile device to adjust your camera --- you need a wireless router to connect through. NO direct connection like GoPro. (so 2010-esque tech design) WORTHLESS!
14) Playback is labeled "thumbnail" on camera. WHY??? the owner's manual section called "playback" is all about what you do under the "thumbnail" button.
15) a programmed USER button for 'deleted last recorded clip' is a dangerous function of a easily accessible user button. (not sure if it asks to confirm but either way it scares me)

In short: look over the PDF owner's manual (download) prior to purchase. Look very carefully. for $2600 I'd tell you to pass unless you're looking for a wide shot lock down camera or closeup interview camera. Only huge plus is the P2 recording if you're looking for it. 4:2:2 is a smart thing to include. If dropped below $2,200USD then I would say it would be worth looking at it knowing it's limitations.

PS sorry about typos or sentence that don;t make sense. sorry I'm not good at proof reading.
 
It sounds like you haven't purchased a new camera in a long time...

Some things on the list could probably be changed, and some are just SOP these days.

If you continue to try new ones, you may find your list doubling and tripling the more modern systems you use.

FWIW, the CX10's best quality is in its 4K mode. Not because it's "4K" but because it seems like most cameras of this kind in this price range (fixed lens consumer/prosumer cameras) that were made past 2015 were optimized to look best in their highest resolutions.

Did you try the 4K?
 
i didn't try 4k because everything I edit is 1080p.
Doesn't seem right the image comes out soft when compared to different model on the same settings.

add:
16) no color bars that I could find.
 
Hi ELN614,
I own a X1500, which is basically the same camcorder but without the handle and a few other features. I only use it in 4K, and haven't noticed any focus issues at that resolution. Here's my thoughts on your points :
1. Manual white balancing does indeed take three button presses rather than one. However, the results look fine here.
2. If using the zoom ring manually then yes indeed it is digital rather than an actual lens movement. The zoom speed is controlled by how quickly you turn the ring, and I agree this does take some getting used to.
3. No comments.
4. The speed of the handle's zoom rocker can be set in the camera, ranging from very slow to very fast. I think very slow is the camera default. I don't own the handle, so can't confirm this.
5. No comments here, except to say that the battery lasts for 4.5 hours.
6. I see that you are using the camera plugged into a power source, which is something I don't do, so can't comment here.
7. as above
8. I only use 4k, so can't comment
9. as above
10. AGC is shown next to the audio meters when the Automatic Gain Control is operating, ie. the audio limiter is switched on. This can be switched off in the settings.
11. It's directly under the System menu. I guess it must be confusing if you are used to it being somewhere else.
12. I think you can do most menu operations using the viewfinder/datawheel combination if using the screen is inconvenient. I have found the screen sufficiently bright to use in most scenarios, but admit I do occasionally practice using the datawheel "just in case".
13. Don't use this, so no comment
14. I agree this button label is just plain daft. Maybe it's a Japanese/English translation thing. "Playback" would be better. After a while though, you just get used to it.
15. All the buttons are programmable. I've changed all of mine except AE level, White Bal, Shutter, Gain, and Iris.

I also use a GH5, which because of its larger sensor is better in low light. But its automatic features are poor. I use the X1500 for run-and-gun and I'm happy with the results I'm getting.

Good luck with your next camcorder, I'm sure there's plenty of choice and very good value out there if your requirements are more centred on 1080p. As you've already returned your CX10, I guess I'm just writing this reply for other interested parties on this forum.

Best Regards
Basjoe
 
ELN614 said:
Doesn't seem right the image comes out soft when compared to different model on the same settings.
Click to expand...

haha, welcome to the club...you're absolutely right and we have been distressed with this time and time again.

A quarter of the conversations on this forum in the past 5 years have discussed this (or a similar) corporate decision.

This didn't exist 10-15 years ago because technology was extremely limited and you had only a few options. And there was a different mentality.

Now you have dozens of ingredients and they can bake their cakes however they would like.
 
ELN614 said:
i didn't try 4k because everything I edit is 1080p.
Doesn't seem right the image comes out soft when compared to different model on the same settings.

add:
16) no color bars that I could find.
Click to expand...

I think you may have found that shooting UHD and editing on a 1080 timeline the image would be sharp. This way crop/pan /zoom is available into the UHD image. I shoot this way all the time with my GH5's shooting UHD 60P. All the options are then available to create either SD for DVD or HD for Bluray and I have a UHD file for the future. By letting the camera do the downconvert to HD it may not be as effect as doing that in editing.
 
Thanks for sharing all that. I had two AG DVC60s back many years ago (shoulder mount version of the DVC30 but also with XLR) and things have changed in the field since then. It seems cameras are a mixed bag of some good, some bad, some missing, and you have to decide which one ticks enough of the boxes of what you need and what you can tolerate and workaround, and afford. Since I do a huge diverse amount of work I have a bunch of cameras and all of them are sorely lacking in different ways. It's frustrating. As you mentioned, some 4K cameras do lousy HD. So on such cameras it's best probably to record in 4K and scale it in post and also have the option to crop zoom if needed.
The CX10 group of cameras looked very interesting to me and I thought of adding one to compliment my UX180 (which would be a great camera if not for several very annoying things that could have been fixed easily). I had already decided against it but after reading your comments that cemented my decision.
Sony makes a trio of small cameras that might work for you: The Sony XDCAM PXW-Z90, Sony NXCAM HXR-NX80, and the Sony Handycam FDR-AX700 ?
Zoom is shorter than the CX10 you returned but size is comparable.
 
5) Agreed that not including a battery charger with this camera (or most cameras for that matter) is kinda ridiculous, although Sony's similarly priced Z90 camcorder also doesn't include a battery charger. This is clearly a cost saving measure, as the Panasonic CX350 (which uses the same type of batteries) does include a charger. This has become quite common among consumer oriented cameras, and unfortunately has now started to inch its way upmarket into more professional models.

6) Locking DC power connectors are not very common among these types of camcorders (integrated lens cameras with a sub $5000 price point) these days. I've used similar types of camcorders from several different brands, and I can't remember the last time I saw one with a locking DC power connector.

7) Note that you can buy longer C7 (figure-8 style) AC power cables for the power adapter. So you could get a 10, 15, or even 20 ft. cable if you wanted to, and then velcro the power brick to the tripod so that there's less risk of it being disconnected accidentally. At least that is what I typically do with similar adapters when running off of AC power.

9) You can record 720p at 50 Mbps or 25 Mbps in the P2 recording modes on the CX10. It is only the 720p AVCHD recording option which is limited to 8 Mbps.

13) You can connect your mobile device directly to the camera to use the wi-fi control app (you don't need to use a separate wireless router). In the Network settings under the WLAN settings for a wireless connection, you can choose among different connection types: DIRECT (for a direct connection from a mobile device), or INFRA (to connect to existing wireless infrastructure or router).

When in DIRECT mode, the camera will look like a wireless access point that you can find and connect to in the network configuration on your phone or tablet.

The network connection settings section of the camera's menu is a bit confusing, but these settings are described in a bit more detail in Chapter 9 of the manual:
https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/hdw/oi/CX10/AG-CX10P(DVQP2236ZA)_E.pdf
 
firehawk said:
Sony makes a trio of small cameras that might work for you: The Sony XDCAM PXW-Z90, Sony NXCAM HXR-NX80, and the Sony Handycam FDR-AX700 ?
Zoom is shorter than the CX10 you returned but size is comparable.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately none of these Sony's will shoot UHD 60P so if the intent is to crop/pan/zoom into a HD project then make DVD or Bluray it will not work easily as the project frame rate will not be correct as these only shoot 30P in UHD. I think Panasonic is the only manufacturer to have camcorders in this price range shooting UHD60P. The reviews I have seen are positive about the Panasonic's in this range but all have been shooting UHD. I expect they are optimized for UHD and the in camera downscaling will not be as good as doing it in editing. I passed on these Sony's as I like the smooth motion of faster frame rates.
 
Ahhh. Yes. Sorry about that. I forgot you wanted 60p. Yeah, panasonic seems to be main one providing UHD 60p in low cost cams so far...
 
I forgot
17) The place where you find the tally light on the back of the camera is now a confusing power light-- emitting a red light (only). I call it an idiot light because only an idiot would need it.... if you can't tell when the camera is on (your screen being lit up is my dead giveaway) then that light is your savior.
This power light, where people would think it would be a tally light, should of never been the color red. Perhaps blue or orange. But why no tally light on the rear of your camera? too expensive to put in a multi-color bulb, Panasonic?

I will be posting some samples output images, hopefully soon.

Davedv regarding 13)--- I looked in the owner's manual and never read anything about direct connection.
6) the older models (from what I can tell the AC130/160 was the last time) had locking system that would go where the battery would go and be unlocked just like batteries. I wonder if the old DC connector would work in it.
 
ELN614 said:
Davedv regarding 13)--- I looked in the owner's manual and never read anything about direct connection.
6) the older models (from what I can tell the AC130/160 was the last time) had locking system that would go where the battery would go and be unlocked just like batteries. I wonder if the old DC connector would work in it.
Click to expand...
6) You could probably use a dummy battery which locks into the camera on the CX10, if you wanted to go that route. The physical specs and contact locations are the same for the newer Panasonic camcorder batteries as for the VW-VBD batteries used on the PX270 and a few earlier models. So I'm guessing a dummy battery like this might work:
https://www.swit.cc/index.php?c=article&id=548

That dummy battery has a regular DC barrel style connector at the power adapter end, but that could be replaced with a locking XLR or locking DC connector, if necessary.

Personally, I prefer having a regular battery in the camera with a separate AC to DC power adapter to the dummy battery approach. That way if the power to the adapter is lost (for example, it is plugged into a power strip that gets turned off, extension cord that gets unplugged, or AC outlet that loses power), the camera will keep running on the internal battery until the AC power adapter issue can be resolved.

13) The CX10 manual does describes a direct wi-fi connection option, although as I mentioned, this section of the manual is not the most clearly written so it's easy to miss it. Also judging from the manual, the network connection settings are largely the same as on the CX350 which also supports direct connection in addition to connecting to an access point.
 
here is a rough comparison. I did it quick and dirty. I didn't setup the cameras side by side.
https://youtu.be/lJA--dcJP5g

both cameras were set to auto (auto exposure, iris, white balance, etc...) no special color setup (ie CINE D, etc..)
 
ELN614 said:
here is a rough comparison. I did it quick and dirty. I didn't setup the cameras side by side.
https://youtu.be/lJA--dcJP5g

both cameras were set to auto (auto exposure, iris, white balance, etc...) no special color setup (ie CINE D, etc..)
Click to expand...

I guess a CX10-family camera is not for you, and I thought you'd already returned it actually. A quick search on YouTube and Vimeo will return a large number of impressive examples from this camera. These include clips of zoom focussing (of wildlife and landscape), and even some reasonable examples of low light shots, given the small sensor size.

Best Regards
 
ELN614 said:
here is a rough comparison. I did it quick and dirty. I didn't setup the cameras side by side.
https://youtu.be/lJA--dcJP5g

both cameras were set to auto (auto exposure, iris, white balance, etc...) no special color setup (ie CINE D, etc..)
Click to expand...

Why are you shooting AVCHD or even 1080P on a camera engineered/optimized for UHD ? You will get better results by shooting UHD and downscaling in your NLE if you want lower resolution. Currently you are testing the downscaling in camera.
 
I use a CX350 and EVA1 for the bulk of my shooting, but there are subjects and situations when it would be helpful to have a small camera with even deeper DOF than the CX350. The footage I've seen online from the CX10 looks very good considering the sensor size, and it shares much of the other technology (menus, codecs, batteries) with the CX350 that I've invested in learning. I wouldn't expect it to be a low light monster but the bulk of my applications for it are actually in daylight conditions (sports, aviation, etc.) where this would be a minor issue. I'm strongly considering the CX10 and note that other reviewers haven't had the kinds of problems with it that ELN614 reports. Shooting at 1080p using the AVCHD codec would not be my preferred way to test it.

- Greg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top