AF101E Video Noise on Black parts of the image - looks like snow
- Thread starter jourman
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RieniO
Well-known member
Zak Forsman
Major Contributor
Oh I agree, we definitely need to do this. But I'm proposing after that test, then let's see how it looks right into ProRes (bypassing H.264) because if it appears perfect out of the cam right to a monitor, our next step will be to determine if this quality can be replicated. I.e., it's an issue if we can only get the best result by only plugging the cam into a monitor but never editing it or getting it out of the camera
I have Final Cut edit bays with AJA Kona cards and can run the signal via SDI right into the bay. Will definitely do a comparison when my camera arrives. It should ship early this week from Silverado.
pannyfreak
Active member
Has Panasonic ever stated firmware will be updatable through the USB port? If the GH1 or GH2 ends up producing better results in the field when these are in the hands of everyone, perhaps Panasonic could make a few algorithm tweaks they perhaps oversought and get small issues like these resolved if it ends up being widespread on the production models and not limited to the demo units?
I know, I know-- wait until the production model ships! Just wondering if firmware updates are a possibility like is now so commonplace with other cameras.
I know, I know-- wait until the production model ships!
Just wondering if firmware updates are a possibility like is now so commonplace with other cameras.
Zak Forsman
Major Contributor
I've done firmware updates on HVXs. It's likely it can be done on an AF100 with an SD card too.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Yes there is a provision for firmware updates through the SD card slot, just like on the HVX/HPX170.
I'm using an HMC151 and since day 1 i've been frustrated over the AVCHD codec noise... The setting that works for me is B press, and coring at + 2 and master ped down at -4.. Detail and v detail is at +3 when using an adapter and without its at 0. I think that b press looks a lot like the cine v gamma, but with less noise. I've always belived that if I can create a low noise image allready in the camera, I can always add some color and contrast in post.
My hd tv is a panasonic with the ability to play AVCHD clips, so whenever I shoot I always review the footage on the tv, there is very little noise. But as soon as you view it on the computer montor, there we go, the noise is back! A good friend of mine is a producer and he sais that computer monitors will show imperfections of the video that is supposed to stay hidden, and that ordinary TV's will hide.
My hd tv is a panasonic with the ability to play AVCHD clips, so whenever I shoot I always review the footage on the tv, there is very little noise. But as soon as you view it on the computer montor, there we go, the noise is back! A good friend of mine is a producer and he sais that computer monitors will show imperfections of the video that is supposed to stay hidden, and that ordinary TV's will hide.
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I'm really just going to hope that this preproduction cam that the OP is discussing has been passed around more than a $10 dollar crack whore and the settings are just jacked up beyond all reasonable levels by a parade of morons at trade shows and such.
I'm really waiting to hear from owners with production cams fresh out of the box.
I'm really waiting to hear from owners with production cams fresh out of the box.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Okay, this is exactly what I'm talking about, except taken in the wrong direction.
Your complaint is about an HMC151, a camera that is fairly universally hailed as being very clean. But you're seeing a lot of noise. So what's the similarity -- both are h.264 cams. Now, secondly -- you've acknowledged that when playing on the TV, there's no noise. But when you play it on the computer, there's noise introduced. So what's at fault? The Computer! There's something your computer's doing that is introducing noise. You're saying that the tv is hiding it, and I say no -- the TV is showing what the actual video is supposed to look like. You have a high-power hardware decoder chip in your blu-ray player, and it's playing back the footage the way it was meant to be seen. But your computer is cheating, because h.264 is very processor-intensive, so it's taking some shortcuts, and those shortcuts are causing noise to appear in the video.
I'm going to start another thread to try to get to the bottom of it.
There's something going on in this discussion which is being missed by pretty much everyone, in my opinion, and I don't understand why. If a particular camera produces noise in the blacks, say, more noise than the "other camera", whatever that may be, you're going to see it more on monitoring devices that have blacks at a higher level. Just saying it's the monitor device's fault is not telling the whole story. If the noise is there in the first place, sure, you can hide it by making sure the monitor is "calibrated" and the blacks are nice and low. But the fact of the matter is that in the real world, where our product is going to be displayed, monitors are NOT calibrated, and we have no control over that. ONLY if the original material is fairly clean in the blacks, will we have a good starting point for our footage to survive the ravages of consumer-world. And that's where the higher-end equipment earns its keep, and that's where we make our compromises when we are at a "value" point.
Further, any codec is taxed by noise, as it must represent it. Noise can end up being amplified, macro blocked, as a result of the codec's compression, where if it were compressed at a high bitrate, noise may remain in the form of dancing pixels, and less noticeable.
The bottom line is that the AF100 may well be fairly noisy, in the end. I will reserve final judgement in my own testing. But to say that the noise is originating in monitoring is silly. (unless the monitor itself is noisy). If the blacks are taller, you're asking more of the S/N ratio of the signal, it's just that simple. Sure, you can "fix" the noise by calibrating your monitor, but it's still down there. Don't be shocked when you watch your footage at a festival or on a monitor at a sports bar, and see why some cameras cost $20,000 and why they'll look clean on Joe's Samsung, and what we may have to bargain for in having a $5000 camera. You can't have everything for nothing!
Further, any codec is taxed by noise, as it must represent it. Noise can end up being amplified, macro blocked, as a result of the codec's compression, where if it were compressed at a high bitrate, noise may remain in the form of dancing pixels, and less noticeable.
The bottom line is that the AF100 may well be fairly noisy, in the end. I will reserve final judgement in my own testing. But to say that the noise is originating in monitoring is silly. (unless the monitor itself is noisy). If the blacks are taller, you're asking more of the S/N ratio of the signal, it's just that simple. Sure, you can "fix" the noise by calibrating your monitor, but it's still down there. Don't be shocked when you watch your footage at a festival or on a monitor at a sports bar, and see why some cameras cost $20,000 and why they'll look clean on Joe's Samsung, and what we may have to bargain for in having a $5000 camera. You can't have everything for nothing!
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Barry_Green
Moderator
It is not, as has been verified in many, many cases in many, many monitoring scenarios. There is a little bit of noise, but it is not "fairly noisy."
It is not silly at all. Some monitors add a horrific amount of noise (such as the Dell 2405). But that's not the only place; I am becoming more and more convinced that the demands of h.264 uncompressing are behind the complaints. I am almost certain that the folks who are encountering "horrid" noise levels, are seeing an artificial level of noise that's being introduced by lazy/cheating codecs that are taking shortcuts to get the speed up. Whether it's their particular video card, or a software-only decoder, or what have you...
The quality of the codec's decompression can have a huge influence on the final-viewed image. Which is why I say -- if you want to see what the footage ACTUALLY looks like, you have to play it back from the camera, or from a blu-ray player, that has a proper hardware codec chip that will show the footage as it's meant to be seen.
We'll get to the situation of worldwide monitoring and output later, but the first step is to identify if the noise is in the original signal, or if it's being introduced artificially. And the more I've thought about this, and the more AF100 footage I've seen, and the more reports I've heard from others who are watching it in proper environments, the more convinced I become that the computer is at the root of the issue.
Andrew J. Allsbury
Well-known member
If the monitor in question has HDMI in you could feed the camera directly into that monitor, if there is less (or no) noise it could pinpoint a non-monitor hardware issue, like your computers video card, etc.
RieniO
Well-known member
But jourman writes he also has the issue when recording to nanoflash, is the HDMI output also h.264 compression?
And it's bad monitors and the elevated pedestal that uncover something that shouldn't be there in the first place.
RieniO
Well-known member
But you claimed levels are ok (you wrote: "Pedestal was on 0") while in fact they aren't, pedestal is much too high in both frame grabs and that's something that can't be overlooked. So you've been looking at a waveform monitor, saw that blacks are too high, still you thought blacks are ok? Doesn't make any sense to me.
Understandably, possible noise is an issue that's very important to the readers here. Instead of having multiple threads all on noise, why not have a big one where we can consolidate all the concerns and experiments as we try to get to the bottom of this? It's very distracting coming across multiple disconnected threads, because then we go over the same ground again and again. Mods?
aurantaurant
Well-known member
EXACTLY! The post by Billygoat said UNLESS the monitor itself is the source of noise, and then it would be creating noise on ALL samples compared, not just AF100 selectivley. Adjusting black levels does not fix elevated noise if it is already there. In the real world, monitors are all over the place for black levels. They do not single out the AF100 to show elevated noise.