AF100A price reduction?

nutmegger

nutmegger

Well-known member
I noticed in B&H's on-line store, the listed price for the AF100A is $4,135. When you click on "Add to cart for more details" the price drops to $3,999. Also, the listed shipping time is 7-14 days which indicates B&H is not stocking the camera. Does anyone know of any indication Panasonic will be dropping the price of the AF100A in order to move sales?
 
B&H has done that same kind of thing for ages. It doesn't imply anything in specific. And as for 7-14 days, it may represent them as just being out of stock at this moment, or they may be limiting what they carry.

As for if/when there might be a price drop, that's really all dependent on how they feel the camera is selling. It's all up to supply & demand. Plus, another thing that's going on is the yen has been devalued greatly against the dollar recently, so there could be some repricing due to them getting so many more yen per the dollar, but if that were to happen I doubt it would be product-specific, it'd be more likely to be something that affected most if not all products.
 
Not disagreeing with Barry in principal but that said, there seems to be zero interest in this camera, even at that price point. A quick search of youtube of AF100a footage reveals.... nothing. Maybe there's something out there, but I couldn't find it. Perhaps even more relevant is this very forum. The Mark III hack, the Black Magic cameras, even the Bolex would be camera all have hundreds of posts. The AF100a has perhaps two dozen.

And this is the Panasonic forum.

As I posted in a thread when this camera was announced, the price point is simply silly given the lack of interest. Note, I'm not arguing the merits of the camera, just it's place in the current market. At the time I said I thought $3,500 MSRP was a responsible price. I was chided, yet time has seemingly proven my suspicions correct.

Now, months later (along with more camera announcements and the Mark III hack), even that pricing seems unrealistic. Much of the appeal of the AF100 is it's all in one packaging. Outside of using an outboard recording unit, the only seeming benefit to the A would seem to be focus assist - something even the vastly cheaper Sony VG20 has had for almost two years now.

As this point, Panasonic might have to eat losses to move these units.... however many actually exist. But the longer they wait, the harder they'll be to move.
 
With all due respect, I think the politics of the company as relates to this camera are a thing for the suits to bicker over but here on the forum it just adds to the confusion over choice of camera for the newbies. Smart shooters are not even on this forum. They are out there making films and getting recognition or preparing to do so. Pixel whores are constantly chattering about the merits of 4k this and super 35mm that and micro 4/3 being less effective in low light than Red Scarlet...the list goes on and on. And it's BORING! I assure you that no matter how much the camera costs, or how many Panasonic sells, or how many wannabe directors try to validate or discredit this camera by taking hundreds of videos of slow moving cats or abstract scenery...there are great creative minds who LOVE this beautiful piece of machinery. I being one of them. And we are out here writing, story boarding, and preparing to shoot that next great masterpiece. The one that not one audience member will qualify as worthy based on it's tech specs. So for Gods sake...try not to judge the camera for what it can't do and sit tight to see what it CAN do. Because I promise you friend...it's coming. Regardless of all the splendiferousness of the 5dmkIII or the awesome newness of the BMCC or the superior incrediliciousness of the super pixelriffic Red Cameras. The absolutely awesome AF100 is the PERFECT tool for the low budget film maker who is hoping to luck out and give a stunning image in combination with a great story that won't look like it's shot on his mothers super 8. And I could buy a Red tomorrow if I wanted. But the workflow, the post costs associated that I can save and put towards production? Just not worth the over hyped importance of 4K! I want to share this with you. Its a link to a Red Scarlet vd AF100 vs 5DMKIII video ( http://vimeo.com/58530172 ). In my opinion I actually FAVOR the AF100 over BOTH. It's subjective. And if I can make the film I see in my mind with the look I love with my own two eyes...that's a success in my opinion. Just my two cents.
 
dreallen said:
try not to judge the camera for what it can't do and sit tight to see what it CAN do. Because I promise you friend...it's coming.
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With respect, I specifically said I wasn't judging the merits of the camera, rather it's place in the marketplace. I wasn't arguing the "politics" of the situation, merely pointing out that given the nearly zero level of interest in the - even on the biggest Panny forum on the net - that prices are likely to drop further (or at least should).

Perhaps the A is a step beyond the base model in IQ, but there's simply nothing out there to show this.

One more point, this thread - and particular my post - should help newbies make decisions, not confuse them. To wit, to my knowledge the A model adds exactly one benefit if you're not using an outboard recording device - focus assist. How is that confusing? And while the AF100 may indeed be a perfect tool for the indie film maker, this thread is about the A model and it's reduction in pricing.
 
jdv said:
To wit, to my knowledge the A model adds exactly one benefit if you're not using an outboard recording device - focus assist.
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Well, strictly speaking, that statement isn't true. It also adds the 1080/60P PS mode.

Regarding sales, interest, and place in the market -- I agree it's surprising that there's very little talk about the unit here; you'd think there'd be more. But that doesn't mean it isn't selling. Perhaps it's selling to people who don't spend their time on forums?

The thing about the AF100 is -- there really isn't anything else like it. What else offers an alias-free image, professional video camera features, variable frame rates, 1080/60p, SDI output, 720 & 1080, two layers of zebra, a waveform monitor, built-in ND filters, timecode sync'ing, and a large sensor, at under $5,000? Nothing. How about at under $4,000? Nothing. Look, I've looked around to see what else I would buy, and I can't find anything on the market short of the FS700 that does what I want. And the FS700 is nearly twice the cost of the AF100.

So I think your argument is only valid from your own perspective. Apparently the AF100A doesn't do what YOU want, and that's okay -- that's why there's other products on the market, and hopefully each will be a perfect match for someone. But until someone produces a camera that does everything the AF100A does, at a price lower than what the AF100A charges... how can you say it's overpriced?

Ultimately there's only one group that is truly concerning themselves with the sales of the AF100A, and that's Panasonic themselves. They know how many they make, how many they sell, and at what price. If they're unhappy with the ratio, they'll either lower the price or discontinue the model. But if they neither lower the price, nor discontinue it, what does that say? I can only assume it says that they're content with how it's selling; I don't know what other rational explanation there could be...
 
Barry_Green said:
Ultimately there's only one group that is truly concerning themselves with the sales of the AF100A, and that's Panasonic themselves. They know how many they make, how many they sell, and at what price. If they're unhappy with the ratio, they'll either lower the price or discontinue the model. But if they neither lower the price, nor discontinue it, what does that say? I can only assume it says that they're content with how it's selling; I don't know what other rational explanation there could be...
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Another explanation is that they aren't terribly happy with how it's selling, but it's marginally profitable. If it's not selling terribly well (and I don't know that it isn't), maybe they've determined that lowering the price wouldn't generate enough additional sales to compensate for the lower price, let alone open a flood of new sales. They could pull the plug, but considering they just released the 100A, they undoubtedly have nothing better to replace it with yet. And I don't think they want to exit the digital-cinema market altogether, even though compared with their competitors' offerings, it has great weaknesses (e.g., unlike cameras form Red, Sony, Blackmagic Design, Canon, and, eventually, Digital Bolex, there's no Panasonic offering with raw output).
 
+1 Dre Allen
+1 Barry Green

Count me as one of those Dre mentions who doesn't participate here much due to weariness over entitled wannabes complaining that the AF100 doesn't have the same mojo as an Arri Alexa.
 
Barry_Green said:
Well, strictly speaking, that statement isn't true. It also adds the 1080/60P PS mode.

Regarding sales, interest, and place in the market -- I agree it's surprising that there's very little talk about the unit here; you'd think there'd be more. But that doesn't mean it isn't selling. Perhaps it's selling to people who don't spend their time on forums?

So I think your argument is only valid from your own perspective. Apparently the AF100A doesn't do what YOU want, and that's okay -- that's why there's other products on the market, and hopefully each will be a perfect match for someone. But until someone produces a camera that does everything the AF100A does, at a price lower than what the AF100A charges... how can you say it's overpriced?
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Barry, with respect, it certainly doesn't indicate it is selling. And it has nothing to do with what I want or don't want in a camera. Nothing in my post indicates in the slightest manner that my personal preferences reflect on what I believe the pricing should be, rather on objectively known facts. That perspective is in fact supported by a giant lack of response here on this forum, a near total lack of footage from the camera on the internet, and a price reduction mere months after the camera's release.

To suggest that the camera is selling in meaningful numbers is objectively speaking, untenable. It's overpriced because Panny isn't selling them. Ultimately it's supply and demand, pure and simple. To suggest that the price has dropped b/c of the yen/dollar exchange rate is, again, not supported by other known facts (no drop in either Panasonic or other Japanese camera companies pricing across the board).

Perhaps one indicator of the truth of my argument is that none of the responders to my post indicates that they actually own the A themselves.

And once again - I'm not bashing the camera - nothing in my post says that in the slightest. The OP asked why the pricing has dropped at B&H (as it apparently has at other sellers as well). Every objectively knowable fact suggests that there is little interest in this camera, thus my suggestion that the camera is over-priced. And while I'm certainly fine with anyone thinking otherwise - that the A is strong seller - the reality is that given the totality of circumstances, my opinion seems at the very least to be a possibility.

And I never mentioned the Arri and only mentioned the other cameras to indicate interest level - not merit.
 
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All I was saying is -- you don't KNOW how it's selling. None of us do. Only Panasonic does. And if it wasn't selling, you'd think they'd either slash the price or discontinue it. And they haven't done that.

Second, there's a huge portion of the world that doesn't speak English and doesn't participate here. Could the AF100A be hot stuff over in China, or selling rapidly throughout South America, or doing very well in Germany or throughout India and southeast Asia? Certainly possible. I don't know. Again, neither do you, or anyone outside of Panasonic themselves. But what if they're enjoying strong sales overseas -- that would certainly justify keeping it in the lineup even if it wasn't doing as well in some other territories, wouldn't it?

I guess I'm struggling to try to understand your point: is it that you're saying Panasonic is stupid for pricing it where they have? Because if that's your position, I'd say -- isn't it their business? Shouldn't they know what to price it at, and isn't it really not our business to be concerned about it? Our decision is pretty much solely limited to whether we feel it's worth (TO US) what's being charged. If it is, we buy it; if it isn't, we don't. Whether the company could sell more at a different price point or whatever, is a decision for their marketing department, not for us to decide.
 
If I were Panasonic, I would give 3 talented people in different ends of the business, like "Indie Film, TV Commercial, used as an example", each a new AF100a, and let them produce example pieces which could be use to promote the new camera's capabilities, similar to what Canon has done with their cine cameras, along with accompaniment pieces where each shooter would lay out the benefits of using the camera in situation X/Y/Z. The benefits would far outweigh the value of 3 cameras from a promotional and marketing standpoint. But hey, I'm not Panasonic.
 
Barry_Green said:
And if it wasn't selling, you'd think they'd either slash the price or discontinue it. And they haven't done that.
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They can´t do both. They will drop the price more and more to clear stock. And they only will be able to discontinue it, if the new model is ready for release.
On a side note, in most countries here in Europe the AF is the cheapest larger sensor camera, cheaper than some DSLR...
I´m also not saying the AF100 is a bad camera. And I´m pretty sure Pana will come back with a bang next NAB.
 
"All I was saying is -- you don't KNOW how it's selling."

Truly. Yet I don't know what s*@# tastes like either - but I have a pretty good idea. No objective fact indicates the A is selling well, while several observations indicate it isn't.

"Second, there's a huge portion of the world that doesn't speak English and doesn't participate here."

Quite true - yet youtube/vimeo are worldwide portals for video - which again makes the lack of video telling.

"I guess I'm struggling to try to understand your point"

My observation was simply that the pricing of A model is too high judging on apparent interest in the camera and that a price cut now better serves their interests.

"isn't it their business?"

Arguably that isn't just Panasonic's business - anyone preparing to drop several thousand dollars on a camera + add ons - has a vested interest in what the fair market value is on that purchase, particularly when said manufacturer has bled money for nearly a decade now. And while ultimately any one company can do as they chose, it's not silly for an outside observer to indicate ways they could better. To wit, you yourself have indicated ways that BMC and the Bolex release could have been handled better.

"Our decision is pretty much solely limited to whether we feel it's worth (TO US) what's being charged. If it is, we buy it; if it isn't, we don't."

And that ultimately was my point - people, it would seem, are not buying the camera, thus a potential explanation on the lower pricing.
 
Sorry if this is a tangent - I have no opinion on Panasonic marketing of the AF-100A - but Barry's first post really made me think. If the AF100(A) is all that, wouldn't you expect it to sell like crazy? I mean, I respect Barry's opinion. I don't think he's biased. Yet, the FS100 price has held up better (and was slightly higher to begin with) despite no ND filters. What is it that has the FS100 be so much more popular despite - on paper - being not as much of a deal as the AF100... Barry said "there is nothing like the AF100(A)" - so why are people going for the FS100... what does it have that the panny doesn't, which defeats Barry's point? Even the biggest difference, low-light performance is accordingly to Barry only marginally better on the FS100. Is it also not possible that the GH3 has according to people a better image than the AF100? I mean, we all understand that GH3 doesn't have NDs, waveform etc., xlrs etc., but when you are talking about $1300 for the GH3, and you intend to get an external monitor anyway (which you would be advised to do anyhow even with the AF100), and you intend to do sound separately anyhow (so xlr is irrelevant), and own ND filters, then for narrative work, why is the AF100 better than the GH3 (except perhaps moire and aliasing)? I mean, with prices for used AF100 getting to be around the $2K mark, if the AF100 was a world better than the GH3, you'd think nobody would be buying the GH3 for video - yet they are... can it be the image from the AF100 vs GH3?

Anyhow, I'm just amazed that if Barry claims that the AF100 is all that, that with the price of the AF100 - especially used - being what it is, it doesn't sell like hot cakes and that any GH3 for video sells at all. I guess I don't understand marketing (which is why I never try to understand why a company markets a product this way or that way - to me, the product is either worth it to me personally or not and that's that).
 
jdv said:
"All I was saying is -- you don't KNOW how it's selling."

Truly. Yet I don't know what s*@# tastes like either - but I have a pretty good idea. No objective fact indicates the A is selling well, while several observations indicate it isn't.

"Second, there's a huge portion of the world that doesn't speak English and doesn't participate here."

Quite true - yet youtube/vimeo are worldwide portals for video - which again makes the lack of video telling.

"I guess I'm struggling to try to understand your point"

My observation was simply that the pricing of A model is too high judging on apparent interest in the camera and that a price cut now better serves their interests.

"isn't it their business?"

Arguably that isn't just Panasonic's business - anyone preparing to drop several thousand dollars on a camera + add ons - has a vested interest in what the fair market value is on that purchase, particularly when said manufacturer has bled money for nearly a decade now. And while ultimately any one company can do as they chose, it's not silly for an outside observer to indicate ways they could better. To wit, you yourself have indicated ways that BMC and the Bolex release could have been handled better.

"Our decision is pretty much solely limited to whether we feel it's worth (TO US) what's being charged. If it is, we buy it; if it isn't, we don't."

And that ultimately was my point - people, it would seem, are not buying the camera, thus a potential explanation on the lower pricing.
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One wonders what your real goal is for such a misguided and verbose analysis. Are you petitioning Panasonic for a sales manager position? Trying to impress professionals with your amazing insight into worldwide marketing? Just being loquacious because you're bored?

Perhaps you'd garner more admiration if you grabbed an AF100 and shot something interesting.
 
My own personal opinion is that the lack of footage and posts can't be seen as an indictment of the AF100a and here's why:

1.) It's basically an AF100 with minor tweaks, not a new model.
2.) When the AF100 came out, footage and posts were everywhere...lots and lots of tests, those tests have been done. The 100A is not going to look or perform drastically different from the 100
3.) The models mentioned with tons of footage...most of the footage is test footage, or short clips...again, people testing out new cameras.
4.) A lot of people these days seem to be enamored with buzz words like 4K and raw, not functionality. The C100 doesn't get a ton of press either, yet it like the AF100 just flat out does the job. Long time owners have great things to say about both cams, but that doesn't excite people like hacks, 4k, raw, x amount of DR, etc.
Many of those other cameras with such buzz are not shipping *cough cough BMCC M 4/3* or have shown a single frame of footage *cough cough, D Bolex*
On the pricing: The HMC150 fluctuated for a long time at B and H...sometimes it would be up, sometimes down....I applaud Panasonic for pricing their cameras more fairly than anyone else. The AC90, AC130/160 are straight up bargains compared to similar SOny and Canon offerings, same goes for the AF100 when compared to similar cameras...though the FS100 is a great value as well.

*sarcasm alert* Panasonic should just be like everyone else and announce a camera with HUGE DR, RAW goodness, and every frame rate under the sun...then just wait 2 years to ship...or offer upgrades in FW that never come. ;)
 
Gentlemen. Please play nice! My reason for opening this thread is because I plan on attending a pro video expo in the Boston area next Friday. I purchased a Canon XHA1S at this show a few years ago and I am ready to upgrade to a large sensor camera. Both the AF100A and Canon C100 meet my current needs. Like most buyers, I am just trying to get the most bang for my buck. My first camera was a Sony PD-150 which I purchased in 2001. It lasted me for seven years. I would like to my next camera to give me the same value as did the PD-150.
 
John B. said:
One wonders what your real goal is for such a misguided and verbose analysis. Are you petitioning Panasonic for a sales manager position? Trying to impress professionals with your amazing insight into worldwide marketing? Just being loquacious because you're bored?

Perhaps you'd garner more admiration if you grabbed an AF100 and shot something interesting.
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Lo-what now?

And I shoot plenty! Shot all night long (which is why I'm responding at 6am local time). Come on over to my website for the big win to find out more about my fabulous new full length horror film, STAHLGEIST.

As for being misguided and verbose...

GUILTY!
 
jdv said:
The Mark III hack, the Black Magic cameras, even the Bolex would be camera all have hundreds of posts. The AF100a has perhaps two dozen.
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LOL, that is just so much hyperbole. At this point, all the Canon Mark III hack delivers is a ragged-edge RAW "video" of 28 frames in length at around 14 fps. The Digital Bolex is a Kickstarter project and the Black Magic Cinema camera is not yet available in MFT. But do dream on, sub-$5K RAW video production is sure to become practical any day now...

@nutmegger: I don't think there's any digital video camera that could be considered a seven-year investment at this point. What's important to consider for the long term is which interchangeable lens system to invest in. Among Canon, Nikon, MFT, and PL mounts, the lens system you buy into will determine which camera models are available to you in the future.
 
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