AF100 or EX3?

B

bennywong

Member
i've post an same thread on the panasonic's page, i am not sure if this against the forum's rule, just want some different opinions from EX users.


first of all, please excuse my eng as i am a asian, lets get to the point.

i am a EX3 owner, i have to made a bid decision now, should i sell the EX3 to get a AF100 with nanoflash?

the reasons i want to sell EX3;
- a potential buyer offering a quite good price (main reason)
- the value of EX3 may drop if EX4, 5 announced?
- its too bulky especially while the Letus extreme attached. looks pro thu
- may be AF100+nanoflash provide better PQ than EX3? (its unkown at this stage)

the reasons i want to keep EX3;
- its the top cam under US10000
- its does provide supreme PQ

i will sell the Letus extreme along with the EX3, very seldom use it now, and i have the redrock M2 rig which may ready to mod AF100 into a over shoulder cam.

i do; 65% wedding, 35% commercial events

please give me some suggestions
 
IMO I would wait just a bit and see how the AF100 is accepted from some users. It's a very new camera and concept. All we know, is what has been shown in marketing and and a few articles. Don't get me wrong, it's a very cool and innovated camera. And would be a very cool tool for weddings, and doesn't have the bulkiness of adapters. But it will need some extras ($$) to handhold properly.
If your in Asia, I bet you would not have trouble finding another buyer, if this guy goes away.

Sony has already come out with 2 new cameras that are 1/2 sxs and 2/3 sxs...you can't stop that train. The EX-3 "has been" replaced essentially. This is a great camera that still has a few or more years left of great market acceptability.

If it was me, I would let these hit the market and then do some more research, and see how it actually performed. I saw the EX-1 and waited for the EX-3 because I knew the potential of the EX line and knew they would have a redesign. And who knows they have the AF100 and find out it has some issues and then a year later have a AF101 that blows away the previous prototype. But now your stuck with the AF100 with issues...The AF100 might be just fine and not have any issues and have a long life with no replacement...you just don't know.

If money is not a problem then sure, have the latest and greatest. If you don't, just be careful and make a logical decision.
 
The Ex will probably be sharper but when there is motion in frame they will be comparable and there is a small chance AF-100 will be a little better.

There is not much room for improvement in this category of cameras. For many reasons, this sensor size and codec is the best that can be done for this price. You can improve the codec by an external recorder and it will be reusable in other cameras you might get in the future. There is no question that a nanoflash will be a lot better than the codec in the Ex.

I would keep the Ex. If you want a real upgrade, that would be a 2/3" Panasonic with an intraframe codec or a Red One. Shopping in the same price range with the Ex will not get you an upgrade.
 
This will probably not be taken in the spirit it is intended, but if I had a dollar for every thread like this one I've read, I could buy an Arriflex Alexa and a set of prime lenses (yes, I am using hyperbole).

Benny, why do you care what other people think about which camera you should buy/use? Only you can provide the correct answer to that question, based on your needs and experiences.

At the risk of being rude, if you have to ask such a question, then perhaps you're not ready to work in this business.

Okay, let the flaming begin...

:violent5:
 
Yeah... Apparently Otis is quite the camera expert. Why wouldn't all of us EX-1 owners want an expert opinion on whether or not to make this upgrade??!?
 
Madp said:
Yeah... Apparently Otis is quite the camera expert. Why wouldn't all of us EX-1 owners want an expert opinion on whether or not to make this upgrade??!?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure why you felt it necessary to respond so rudely to an intelligent and informed response.
It might have sounded slightly less playground if you had presented some kind of argument rather than just sneering.
 
agcohn said:
But what is the point of this forum, if not to ask for other people's advice on cameras?
Click to expand...

On the surface, that seems to be a fair question. On the other hand, the OP's orginial query was not seeking advice, such queries seldom are. In addition to that, what is, more often than not, given is not advice but opinion. Opinions are like noses, everybody's got one.

As many of these kind of threads as I've read over the years, I can't honestly recall any where genuine advice was given. They rapidly disintegrate into fanboy rants with those posting resorting to name calling. What is the value of such threads?

If the original poster is smart enough to film "weddings and commercial events," then he is certainly smart enough to know what his requirements are insofar as equipment is concerned. The question then becomes is the individual interested enough in doing his own homework--his own research based on the information that he and he alone has? I think far too many of us have become too lazy to do our own research. We want to be told what to do, what to buy, what to think. That's far easier than thinking and doing for ourselves.

At the end of the day (or the end of the thread) it makes absolutely no difference what anyone says. Why? Because the OP is still left with the fact that the final decision is still his to make.

Now, had the query been: "I am considering buying X and I would appreciate hearing from those of you who own X to share your experiences with it." That's far more productive than asking, "Should I buy A or B?"

Just my opinion, nothing more.
 
Last edited:
I would add that at this point in time you cannot make an informed decision. There are a few clips done by the AF100 that you can see, but none for actual tests. Panny doesn't want the camera scientifically tested for resolution, moire, etc until they release the final version. (That is not unreasonable since they will try to correct any issues in the mean time.)

If you remember, when the 5D and 7D came out the original clips looked great, but when people actually tested them they had issues such as moire, aliasing, color aberations, etc. I play with my 7D, but I don't trust if for a professional shoot where I'm paying a bunch of people because sometimes is fails spectacularly. (Around bricks, tiles, grills, etc. especially.) Plus the sound issues, incomplete HDMI, resolution at half the 1080p file format, etc.

The AF100 is reputed to have reduced the aliasing issues, but without tests we don't know how much. And in truth all cameras, even film cameras can have moire at certain frequencies of repeating patterns. However, the 7D has them in several not uncommon frequencies. We don't know on the AF100. I'm sure Panny tried to address those issues, but we don't know how well it came out. I expect it will be better than a GH1, but it was originally inspired by the GH1, which also had issues.

You have a camera/nano combination now that gives resolution about as good as you can get. The AF100 can give you DOF control, but it is unknown if it will give comparable resolution. So I agree with those above who said wait. Its too early to tell. We don't know yet. Use your Letus if you need DOF control in the meantime.
 
Last edited:
Jay Gladwell said:
At the risk of being rude, if you have to ask such a question, then perhaps you're not ready to work in this business.
Click to expand...

A bit dramatic no Jay? All he asked for are some suggestions nothing more! sighhhhhhh!

It is possible to provide an opinion without being so rude Jay.

Bad dog!

Simon
 
Last edited:
Isn't the AF100 a single-chip camera? Why would anyone want to downgrade from a 3-chip to a single-chip, just for the latest effect-du-jour (shallow DoF)? Unless, perhaps he's doing wedding videos.. then maybe that flash and glamour with the blurry backgrounds and wedding rings that are half in focus, half out of focus will impress the clients as they watch the finished DVD on their 17" Daewoo televisions, connected via RF modulators to their DVD players. But if you're a filmmaker, in that budget range, it's better to stick with the EX3. See Philip Bloom's work in progress on South London (it's on Vimeo) for some sneek peeks at the AF100's footage, then decide if that's suited to your needs.
 
basspig said:
Isn't the AF100 a single-chip camera? Why would anyone want to downgrade from a 3-chip to a single-chip, just for the latest effect-du-jour (shallow DoF)? Unless, perhaps he's doing wedding videos.. then maybe that flash and glamour with the blurry backgrounds and wedding rings that are half in focus, half out of focus will impress the clients as they watch the finished DVD on their 17" Daewoo televisions, connected via RF modulators to their DVD players. But if you're a filmmaker, in that budget range, it's better to stick with the EX3. See Philip Bloom's work in progress on South London (it's on Vimeo) for some sneek peeks at the AF100's footage, then decide if that's suited to your needs.
Click to expand...

Basspig I see where you are coming from with 3 chip vs single chip, but its not entirely accurate. RED and Alexa for example are single chip. The difference comes with the chip size. Lets look at the EX3 it has three sensors @2,073,600 pixels each totalling, for simplicity sake - 6,300,000 total pixels split as RGB.

The AF100 is a 12.1 megapixel sensor, cropped to 16:9. So what does that leave you with? Not sure what the math is there, but it would be a bit over the EX series. So your effective RGB number of pixels would be fractionally higher in the AF100. The difference is they are all on one single sensor. The other thing to remember is one of the greatest influences on depth of field is aperture. So whilst you can go wide open and extremely shallow, you can also stop down and get a fairly wide DOF as well. The other thing that effects DOF is focal length. So to get a similar shot to the EX - you can go a wider lens and stop down to get the all in focus look. In doing this however you forgo any low light performance increase benefits of the larger sensor.

My point is that the AF100 with a larger sensor simply gives you both options. And wide open you can get a big boost in lowlight. These are just options of the tool which are there to be used ... or not. Not everything on an AF100 will be or has to be extreme shallow DOF. Its just another brush to use, but it offers a bit more on the artistic option side.
 
I'm still waiting to see some real tests of aliasing, moire and resolution. As you know when they tried to down rez the big 7D, 5D and GH1 chips those things became issues in certain situations.

I've posted a crop from Philip Blooms video that seems to show moire just where I'd expect to see moire if there was going to be a problem (on the bridge cables) and everyone seems to be such a fan that they've ignored it.

AF100-Bridge.jpg

I'm more than willing to conscede that other things may have caused this effect. I'm advocating test results since its the same size chip as the GH1 being down rez'd.
 
Duke M. said:
I'm still waiting to see some real tests of aliasing, moire and resolution.
Click to expand...
Real tests will come when they tell me the imaging chain is finished. Right now, they've said not to post footage in the native codec.

However, I have still been experimenting. I took the AF100 into a scenario that caused my GH1 and 7D to overwhelmingly puke with aliasing and caused massive moire patterns. A simple wide-angle deep-focus shot of a brick house with a tile roof is all it takes. I used my ZF 18mm lens stopped down to f/8, so the entire universe was in razor-sharp focus. No matter what distance I set the 7D at, the roof was a swimming sea of purple/orange moire. So then I took the AF100 in the same scenario, with the same lens, and -- NOTHING. No moire whatsoever. So then I figured -- well, maybe it's sensitive to moire at certain distances? So I moved the camera completely across the street, and walked it in slowly and continuously until I was three feet away from the brick house, and then played that footage on my 67" 1080p TV.

ZERO moire. Z E R O.

There may be tiny bits of aliasing on the finest details, but as compared to a DSLR, it represents about a 99% reduction.

And this isn't even a final unit. It may get even better. So I can't definitively say exactly what it will be, but I can say that as far as a real-world test of a prototype, moire is (as a practical matter) exterminated.
 
Duke M. said:
I'm still waiting to see some real tests of aliasing, moire and resolution. As you know when they tried to down rez the big 7D, 5D and GH1 chips those things became issues in certain situations.

I've posted a crop from Philip Blooms video that seems to show moire just where I'd expect to see moire if there was going to be a problem (on the bridge cables) and everyone seems to be such a fan that they've ignored it.

View attachment 24938

I'm more than willing to conscede that other things may have caused this effect. I'm advocating test results since its the same size chip as the GH1 being down rez'd.
Click to expand...
i think theres minor aliasing there but noticeable in a pixelpeeping way. if it exists in the final version, i wouldnt care because I cant see it. even now i cant see it
 
dcloud said:
i think theres minor aliasing there but noticeable in a pixelpeeping way. if it exists in the final version, i wouldnt care because I cant see it. even now i cant see it
Click to expand...

On the Alfa Romeo clips that have some Canon 5D shots and some AF100 shots, you always know you are watching the Canon by the aliasing. From what I have seen so far I would say Af100 is practicaly free from alliasing.

Edit: I spelled Alfa with ph. Shame on me:)
 
Last edited:
Otis Grapsas said:
On the Alpha Romeo clips that have some Canon 5D shots and some AF100 shots, you always know you are watching the Canon by the aliasing. From what I have seen so far I would say Af100 is practicaly free from alliasing.
Click to expand...

and even if t does, t wont be so in your face like the 5d's
 
dcloud said:
and even if t does, t wont be so in your face like the 5d's
Click to expand...

It could have a little luma alias like a 3CCD/3CMOS camcorder or a litle chroma alias like a bayer camcorder, but it will not have the heavy line skipping alias of dSLRs. Line skipping is fundamentally flawed as a design decision.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top