Erik Naso
Veteran
+1
My experience is overexposing goes white first then yellow when you really push it.
AF100, my first impressions and some questions.
- Thread starter Adamsenoj
- Start date
+1
My experience is overexposing goes white first then yellow when you really push it.
Asking questions, what do you think I'm doing here?
But it's hard to ask questions to long time users because most just feel like defending their camera and blaming it on operator error instead of trying to help or even recognizing their camera has huge limitations. Few can actually be objective but many are trying.
By the way, who's giving up? If I was giving up I would have already tossed the AF100 in the first downtown trash can near by when I was desperately trying to get it to properly expose my subjects, while keeping detail in those sunny buildings in the background or at least not showing yellow blow outs. But yet, I didn't toss it in the river and came here to ask questions.
Sorry, can't post them without permission and the actual first tests are already gone form my cards.
You guys must have a special camera or I have a lemon. In any case, not very good for Panasonic to hear that from a quality control stand point.
But I don't push anything. The DR does. If I'm faced to have a silhouetted subject or a correctly exposed building or sky and I can't change the direction of the shot, it will blow to yellow hell. Of course, that is if the heaven gaffer is in a coffee break and couldn't throw that giant diffusion over that skyscraper I asked for.
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dustylense
Veteran
Asking questions, what do you think I'm doing here?
But it's hard to ask questions to long time users because most just feel like defending their camera and blaming it on operator error instead of trying to help or even recognizing their camera has huge limitations. Few can actually be objective but many are trying.
By the way, who's giving up? If I was giving up I would have already tossed the AF100 in the first downtown trash can near by when I was desperately trying to get it to properly expose my subjects, while keeping detail in those sunny buildings in the background or at least not showing yellow blow outs. But yet, I didn't toss it in the river and came here to ask questions.
This kinda attitude isn't gonna get you far with the camera.
First, have you dropped the chroma level? Second, POST some grabs so we can discuss your image issues.
Second, I don't think the camera has huge limitations. Just takes some time learning to shoot to the camera.
Third: AGAIN, POST SOME GRABS so we can see what you're getting.
Fourth: Take a look at some of SHOOTERS work with the AF100. Or Eriks.
Fifth: Help us help you, post some grabs!
Shooter
Veteran
How about shooting something that displays your issue ..and that you are allowed to post here?
Your issue appears to be more extreme than any other I have read..so I am curious to see what and how you are shooting.
FWIW: Here are some links to tests I did with my crew and this camera before I purchased it. The tests are based around the fact I intended to use this camera as a Production Camera in studio ...for the type of work I do.
I would have done dfferent ones for exterior shooting ..but with the same methodology.
The methodology is so we obtained a baseline understanding of the camera and from there we could tweak as required.
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?236025-AF102-Scene-Setting-Tests-SCREEN-GRABS&highlight=
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?236028-AF102-Peak-white-tests-SCREEN-GRABS&highlight=
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?236029-AF102-Knee-Setting-Tests-SCREEN-GRABS&highlight=
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?236027-AF102-Gamma-Settings-SCREEN-GRABS&highlight=
Your issue appears to be more extreme than any other I have read..so I am curious to see what and how you are shooting.
FWIW: Here are some links to tests I did with my crew and this camera before I purchased it. The tests are based around the fact I intended to use this camera as a Production Camera in studio ...for the type of work I do.
I would have done dfferent ones for exterior shooting ..but with the same methodology.
The methodology is so we obtained a baseline understanding of the camera and from there we could tweak as required.
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?236025-AF102-Scene-Setting-Tests-SCREEN-GRABS&highlight=
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?236028-AF102-Peak-white-tests-SCREEN-GRABS&highlight=
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?236029-AF102-Knee-Setting-Tests-SCREEN-GRABS&highlight=
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?236027-AF102-Gamma-Settings-SCREEN-GRABS&highlight=
What attitude? Not giving up and coming in here hoping people can give me some usable tips? I don't understand.
As I said a few posts back I have already dropped chroma to -7, which is as low as it will get. Helped but didn't cure it.
By the time I can shoot tests only shots to post this project will be over. I can do that later, but for now I have to get good footage and now.
The camera does have huge limitations. I know it's cheap but that doesn't change the fact. It's a stills camera in a professional video body. The more I use it the more I see that.
I think the AF100 is a much better camera for studio use than loation use. But then again most cameras are. it's much easier when you can 100% control everything.
See my explanation to Dusty as to why I can't shoot tests now anymore. No time. Shooting a project with the camera now, 12 hours days. Need good footage now.
Shooter
Veteran
But I don't push anything. The DR does. If I'm faced to have a silhouetted subject or a correctly exposed building or sky and I can't change the direction of the shot, it will blow to yellow hell. Of course, that is if the heaven gaffer is in a coffee break and couldn't throw that giant diffusion over that skyscraper I asked for.
Dont get offended by this ... but do you use lights or reflectors on your shoots ? (Film, Red, Alexa, AF102, stills..etc... I do)
KyleProhaska
Veteran
You said you used the EX cameras, and those had uneven chroma clipping as well when things blow out. The AF100 might blow a bit earlier, but with some CC it's very manageable. You need to underexpose more apparently.
The camera is NOT a stills camera in a professional body, that's a foolish statement. It's a very good camera and just like any other it has its own limitations that need to be understood. The dynamic range of the camera is good for a camera released when it was with the specs it was. Very few cameras can go out into harsh sunlight with shadows behind someone and expose for both adequately. Underexpose more and just use some bounce or fill if you have to.
There's no way you should be seeing the blowing out of highlights the way you say you are if you're exposing properly. I've taken this camera out into all sorts of situations and exposed properly for the skin and came away very happy. The only time I ever seen the yellow or odd colors on skin or other things like buildings, etc. is when I've screwed up or the lighting situation was the absolute worst it could be with an inability to control much about it. Even then, the camera can hold highlights up to 110 IRE so you have a lot of room to pull things back down if you're in a difficult situation.
Stop blaming the camera, that's the "attitude" I think dusty was referring to. Let us see some footage when you can so we can see what you're working with.
dustylense
Veteran
It's exactly the attitude I'm talking about. Don't blame the camera.
Without seeing some grabs that you have, we can only take a guess at what you're experiencing. I would say to trust your waveforms and peaking set ups. Avoid clipping and use DRS 1 if you have to lift some shadows. I do. Black balance often, very often! Once you tune yourself to the camera, it becomes hard to part with it. I just won't sell mine. Thought about it many times. But all the built in's with the image that is possible, I just can't let it go.
If you want to throw it in the trash, I'll take it off your hands in a heartbeat.
Here is a shot that is way over exposed:
Here is the frame with a 30 second grade in FCPX:
Had I under exposed the shot a bit, I would have had way more to work with. But in the NLE, if I spend more than 30 secs with this shot, I can get an image I'm alright with.
Without seeing some grabs that you have, we can only take a guess at what you're experiencing. I would say to trust your waveforms and peaking set ups. Avoid clipping and use DRS 1 if you have to lift some shadows. I do. Black balance often, very often! Once you tune yourself to the camera, it becomes hard to part with it. I just won't sell mine. Thought about it many times. But all the built in's with the image that is possible, I just can't let it go.
If you want to throw it in the trash, I'll take it off your hands in a heartbeat.
Here is a shot that is way over exposed:
Here is the frame with a 30 second grade in FCPX:
Had I under exposed the shot a bit, I would have had way more to work with. But in the NLE, if I spend more than 30 secs with this shot, I can get an image I'm alright with.
Shooter
Veteran
Excellent frame grabs Dusty. Nice example of what can be done and especially in regard to this thread.
Yep.. a stop less exposure would make life easier but...
as you said...spend a bit of time on a CC and grade and that image would really pump.
Levels: I would drop the blacks (more...and first thing before anything else), Set the whites and highlights ( a little higher ) then go to the gammas (mids)
Then I would CC a bit.
Cool.
Yep.. a stop less exposure would make life easier but...
as you said...spend a bit of time on a CC and grade and that image would really pump.
Levels: I would drop the blacks (more...and first thing before anything else), Set the whites and highlights ( a little higher ) then go to the gammas (mids)
Then I would CC a bit.
Cool.
KyleProhaska
Veteran
People have a lot of negative things to say about the AF100's dynamic range compared to something like maybe a Canon DSLR. The thing people forget is the Canon DSLR's smack into 100IRE and clip, there's no grace after that. The rolloff might be pleasing (I like it) but in terms of the actual range you can work with, 0-100 is it. With the AF100, you have 0-110 or even more. I have a few clips where the highest highlights went above 110 and I was still able to pull them down. If anything, the fact it works within the range it does gives you a lot of leeway for those highlights people despise so much.
dustylense
Veteran
Thanks shooter.
It was mostly to say that an over-exposed image can be dealt with. Those highlights on the ladies shirt are hitting 110 IRE or so. I'm not seeing any yellow. My grade would be as you said, with higher whites and such. I just wanted to show the OP that the camera is in fact capable of recovery with a 30 second grade.
ANd Kyle is right. A DSLR can't do that as well because of the 100 IRE limit.
So to the OP. Post some grabs with your settings and maybe guys like Shooter can dial you in.
ulisses
Well-known member
Nice examples Shooter, I also liked this one for white evaluation:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...SCREEN-GRABS&p=2243940&viewfull=1#post2243940
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...SCREEN-GRABS&p=2243940&viewfull=1#post2243940
David W. Jones
Veteran
You guys must have a special camera or I have a lemon. In any case, not very good for Panasonic to hear that from a quality control stand point.
But I don't push anything. The DR does. If I'm faced to have a silhouetted subject or a correctly exposed building or sky and I can't change the direction of the shot, it will blow to yellow hell. Of course, that is if the heaven gaffer is in a coffee break and couldn't throw that giant diffusion over that skyscraper I asked for.
Why not take a little of your own advice, From some of your own earlier posts...
"If you expose so the highlights are not blowing you are not losing any stops, they are just used in the bottom of the scale, meaning your shadows will be brighter. I also think the GH2 is a great little camera and I'm buying one. But there's no reason to fool ourselves or try to put better cameras down. 10 stops is 10 stops. "
And
"How can somebody blow exposure on a camera which has a waveform monitor for any other reason but operator error? "
All the Best!
Dave
David W. Jones
Veteran
I seriously doubt that Hitchcock hated to shoot on location because of the AF100.
As with any production, even back then, it takes a higher budget to shoot location than it does backlot.
It sounds like you've been given a lot of information to try and help you with your situation. SHOOTER and others have tried to explain how they handle similar situations, but nothing seems to be helping you. I understand about the limitations of showing work that has not been authorized for release, but you can't expect any additional help without showing something.
In the future, perhaps it's a prudent idea to work with your equipment and understand how it's best utilized before starting a production you're being paid to complete. Working with new equipment "in the heat of battle" can only add unnecessary stress.
I hope your project ends up successful in the end. If not, it's simple. Dump your AF100 and go back to what works best for you.
That way the rest of us here don't have to hear you whine, complain and criticize equipment, you obviously don't know how to use correctly, insult someone else's work to support your uniformed argument, and waste the time of people actually trying to help others on this board.
...and so there is no ambiguity, go ask for help to save your sorry butt somewhere else.
In the future, perhaps it's a prudent idea to work with your equipment and understand how it's best utilized before starting a production you're being paid to complete. Working with new equipment "in the heat of battle" can only add unnecessary stress.
I hope your project ends up successful in the end. If not, it's simple. Dump your AF100 and go back to what works best for you.
That way the rest of us here don't have to hear you whine, complain and criticize equipment, you obviously don't know how to use correctly, insult someone else's work to support your uniformed argument, and waste the time of people actually trying to help others on this board.
...and so there is no ambiguity, go ask for help to save your sorry butt somewhere else.
Mike Harvey
Veteran
A bit harsh, don't you think?