AF100 external recorder - Ninja 2 or Samurai?

Hi Ben,

I don't have a who's who quote list to help reassure you in my abilities, nor any night and day examples from the AF100 but I can say humbly that i have been lead to believe that none of those achievements you have above would feature 24mbs AVCHD footage? i was lead to believe that it was a minimum of 422 at least at 50mbs for BBC HD acquisition? you're the man to put me right on this so please do.

For me, the difference in the various gradient and macro blocking examples was enough to convince me there was a difference in the image, even on the AF100, I just wasn't going to pay £1500 or more for that visual increase with a Samurai or Nano Flash. When the shuttle gained prores I thought £400 for the actual recorder, cables and media was worth investing in, for the workflow experience as much as the small increase in picture quality on the AF100, my curosity was affordable (to me anyway).

I was really after the robustness of the codec, the 8bit 422 is no RAW, anyone thinking that is fooling themselves, the noise pattern is better (hence the better gradients) and a few of the scene file options can be used safely as a denoise pass in post will be a little more accurate as there is next to no compression artifacts but largely on a small monitor it looks the same, Projected to a large cinema screen on the other hand is a different thing and the image blow ups you see on the web give you a good example of what that may look like on a larger screen. Yes you may not be shooting for the cinema screens but others are.

Where these devices really make sense to me at least (samurai included) is the freedom to use them with other cameras. All of a sudden, no matter what camera you use you are recording at the same data rate, on the same media, to the same codec, free of compression artefacts, for me thats almost the benefits of film stock. How ever little the improvement on the AF100 it is still an improvement. If you are only going to shoot on one camera, that might not be enough, if like me you aspire to and often use other cameras you may enjoy the extra features these simple recorders unlock such as, higher colour resolution, higher bit depth (F3), proxy recordings (RED) and Broadcast HD (any camera shooting under 50mbs)

There are a few other workflow benefits, backup/dual record arguments that could be made but ill stick to the visual comments as that seems to be the direction of your posts.

Ben, can you share you're test? There's more than enough for the why it does on the web, why it is not worth it would be just as interesting for me and others to see.
 
It's Monday morning here in the UK and I've got to crack on with some work, so I'll try and answer your questions, Tony and Craig, as briefly as I can.

One of your post already mentions that you have some Prores HQ and SD footage. Is that not suitable for this exercise?

Good question. No. Why? Short answer: I'm an idiot. Longer answer: I was looking at the Ninja last year in a bit of a hurry. I'd just done a live music job for Absolute Radio here in the UK and the turnaround time was 24 hours. Foolishly, I hadn't done a prior test to work out the ingest time and I got tripped up and delivered a couple of hours late. Hence considering the Ninja and the Ki Pro etc. As it all panned out, we decided the turnaround time was too ambitious for the kind of visual quality/"DSLR" look they wanted and we settled on a traditional multicam/switcher solution. Anyway, in the process, I was interested to see if there was a visual improvement over the raw AVCHD file and a transcode to ProRes at ingest. It was a pretty cursory test and, because of the way things panned out with the workflow, I didn't keep the material as it was enough for me to make a judgement for my needs at the time - I decided it would obviously speed up my workflow, but wouldn't change the quality for the kind of work I was doing at the time.

Hi Ben,

I don't have a who's who quote list to help reassure you in my abilities, nor any night and day examples from the AF100 but I can say humbly that i have been lead to believe that none of those achievements you have above would feature 24mbs AVCHD footage?

Yeah yeah, fair enough. Stating my credentials further back in this thread was perhaps a bit overkill - I was trying to get across in shorthand that I've been doing this for a bit longer than 15 minutes, unlike some of those who confidently post all sorts of nonsense on this forum. As Tony/XSVPro knows (he shot a corporate gig with us last year), I'm not doing much broadcast stuff at the mo - I have my feet in two different worlds, got bored with broadcast docs and am enjoying playing around with "prosumer" technology, much to the hilarity of my old muckers in the business. But I'm making a living and they're starting to change their minds - hence commissioning me to make 10 training films for the new BBC Academy website.

I really appreciate the free sharing of useful knowledge on this forum - I just get frustrated at times with the low signal to noise ratio and the shocking amount of disinformation that gets confidently proclaimed. And I think there has been a bit of that going on around these recorders. They're worth their weight in gold if you need an intra frame format to jump straight into an edit with, but it's obvious from various posts over the past few months that some people are buying these in the hope that they will improve upon the AF100s relatively softish presentation - or that it will help them grade their way out of badly colour-balanced material. It appears they then buy these devices and convince themselves - a la King's New Clothes - that they're seeing an improvement and then repeat, verbatim, phrases like, "heavy grading"etc. A brief look at the work on their Vimeo pages suggests to me how uninformed they really are. I'm not mentioning any names or posts - I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.

These recorders came about (AJA KiPro and CD Nanoflash to start with) principally to address issues of TV Broadcasters, who were under pressure to accept material from 10 bit 35 Meg cameras like the EX3 from budget-pressed indie producers. The recorders resolved the concatenation issue we used to experience at the BBC, ie if you don't keep a strict native workflow throughout, you will reach a "digital cliff" at the point of MPEG2 transmission. Back around 2005, when FCP started to make an appearance at the BBC, there were a few shocks. Delivered masters looked fine and passed OK, but it was only with subsequent compression in the broadcast chain that the faults, introduced early in the production of the master, showed up. The "cliff" refers to how quickly the digital signal breaks.

To start with, nobody was claiming visual improvement at source with these recorders - it was all nerdy stuff to keep the engineers happy about digital signal chains and it established a minimum technical standard at a time when technology was changing at a crazy rate.

Going back before then, for around 3 or 4 years, we were producing high-end international co-productions using the 25 Meg DV codec, because there was a good native workflow - shoot on DV (DVCam, DVCPro etc), ingest directly and natively into FCP, edit, grade and master in DV - meaning the material never got transcoded back to base-band/uncompressed and then compressed again. It was then only transcoded to Digibeta right at the end of the chain for delivery. I did do a couple of drama productions on the 50 Meg DV format - but these were the exceptions.

And that's the thing about MPEG compression. It's bloody good stuff. Back in the mid 2000s, DV was looking just as good as the far more expensive established Digibeta format. And then we recently got MPEG4 - the AVCHD 24 Meg codec was exhaustively developed by super-sized brains to be visually identical to MPEG2 50 Meg HD. NOT when you freeze it and zoom in on pixels - that's to totally misunderstand the point - but on playback, where the Long GOP algorithm works it's magic.

Anyway, I'm supposed to be keeping this short...

I'd love to revisit this for my own curiosity - but I don't have a recorder to hand to try. I'm happy to put my time into it and pull some grading favours - and I might be pleasantly surprised by what I see and I might be able to post something that's useful to those considering buying these recorders.

What I'd like particularly to evaluate is the difference between a flash recorder ProRes file and a transcoded-at-ingest to ProRes file - as that's my current workflow.

If someone could shoot a couple of 10 second chunks when they're next doing a job, it wouldn't be too huge to upload and several people on this forum could evaluate them and compare notes.

That would create some genuinely useful knowledge and perhaps some proper challenging debate - and might cut down some of the "I've bought it, therefore I will blindly defend it" cognitive dissonant noise.

None of this is meant personally to anyone here - I'm as guilty of denial as the next human - so please don't inflame this thread with indignant responses, as I genuinely mean no hurt towards anyone.

If anyone's up for it, this could be a definitive and useful test, with an agreed methodology, peer-reviewed amongst us and can surely only make this forum even more credible.

Ben.
 
Hi Ben,

Yeah I feel the same, it's not enabling heavy grading or making colours pop, sharper etc its just more robust, has a better noise pattern, handles gradients/banding better and of course is 422 which technically means more colour resolution but most misinterpret this for actual resolution. I will say that a flatter image is a little safer to work with from the recorder but with the AF100 its kind of pointless, the best examples of work on here have shot there controlled scenes with a lot more contrast and punch leaving only small tweaks to be done in post, denoise, curves, saturation etc

For me the 24p I-Frame codec looks better with handheld shots and the whole DIT process that is crucial when shooting to a recorder was valuable knowledge.

As I said, all this for around £400 was affordable to me, not so at £1500 but to each there own, personally I am looking forward to an F3 shoot and being a little more prepared for the Blackmagic Camera.

I have a shoot coming up in a few months that I will grab you 5 mins from of both codecs.
 
If someone could shoot a couple of 10 second chunks when they're next doing a job, it wouldn't be too huge to upload and several people on this forum could evaluate them and compare notes.


Tell me exactly how you intend to evaluate and compare this stuff with other people. (via the web)

How will one measure or quantify any observation in any meaningful way that can be discussed objectively?

IMHO. It becomes an academic exercise based on "observation" and uncontrolled variables . eg monitors , computer screens, compressed codecs - youtube, screen grabs, frame grabs.etc..

Testing for your self in a controlled situation ( eg a DA Vinci Suite with an experienced colorist) is more likely to have some practical value.

Anyway...

I have 2 small files for you to test.

Dual recorded AVCHD and ProRes 7.75 & 41mb respectively.

@bengiles
PM me with an email address and I will upload them through a yousendit drop box.
 
Thanks mate.

PM sent.

Ben.

Ben, this thread turned me on to this thread from a ways back, http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...ints-is-it-h-264-uncompression-software/page5

There is one post on this page that really solidified my love of external capture and its mostly down to how different the ingested AVCHD was for these guys, some say its great, others have sever noise, banding etc. We all know that the Prores doesn't get messed with, it is what it is to everyone (pretty much). I've never had a problem with the AVCHD but seeing how this might not be the case for everyone I'm pretty happy with prores when its suitable.

Having read about H.265 today I'm thinking (right or wrongly) that prores capture, edit and master with H.265 archive is not a bad way to go.

thoughts anyone?
 
Hey not to bring up the old thread, but I've been enjoying using my new Samurai but was wondering more about mounting options. (At the moment it's on a swivel shoe mount next to my Small HD! I was wondering what you guys are using to mount it to the af100, is there a standard? Ideally it would be nice to have it at the back, might make steadicam a bit easier too. I was also wondering if the following could be used:

http://www.westsideavstore.com/index.php?p=product&id=21
 
Excuse the many posts, just can be a bit confusing and I want to try and decide something this week for a job in two weeks. Basically don't want to spend a fortune, but i want something that I can connect the atomos to as well as the camera - and then connect it to either my tripod or blackbird (maybe) without having to spend another few hundred on another accessory.

I was thinking, expensive but if I got the following, even though I wouldnt be using any rods could I use the following plate and connect it to my manfrotto tripod with the same holes (ie the tripod and quick release plate, the cheese grate on top, with both the af 100 and samurai mounted on to it) would that work ?

http://www.videogear.co.uk/Genus/Cheese-Family/Genus-Cheese-Plate/prod_1959.html

Alternatively I was thinking eitherthe following plate on the top shoe mount of the camera http://www.genus-tech.us/home/top-cheeseplate-for-sony-nex-fs100-camcorder

Or the following rod system (but don't know if i need to purchase a second thing to connect it to my tripod?) http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GENUSTECH...406?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item257ceaa8ee

Sorry for the rambling but after six hours of staring at products my brain is frazzled. Someone save me and I'll owe them a cold frosty beer! :)
 
I personally use the Black Magic Hyperdeck. Ease of use. It is a GREAT image. I have eben testing all weekend. I'll try to get some footage up. But the grand daddy is the Convergent Design. WOW! But it's expensive...
 
Already have the samurai dude lol but thanks, got a good deal luckily so took it. Anyone have any ideas on those links for the set up? My trigger finger is getting itchy!
 
Hmm Just had my first bad experience with the samurai, basically was recording a simple scene indoors (both with the samurai and its hard drive, and the internal SD), and found the samurai file in adobe (and the original file on on my computer) had bits where an intemittent solid green flash would appear a couple of times sporadically (usually when the camera was moving slightly hand held). Yet on the SD the footage was fine. Anyone had any experiences of this? Is it some setting or is it likely the hard drive isnt great? (Maybe time to get an SSD)....
 
Bad connection perhaps. Also make sure you are using approved drives.

Hmm Just had my first bad experience with the samurai, basically was recording a simple scene indoors (both with the samurai and its hard drive, and the internal SD), and found the samurai file in adobe (and the original file on on my computer) had bits where an intemittent solid green flash would appear a couple of times sporadically (usually when the camera was moving slightly hand held). Yet on the SD the footage was fine. Anyone had any experiences of this? Is it some setting or is it likely the hard drive isnt great? (Maybe time to get an SSD)....
 
Does anyone know if the BlackMagic 2 can record up to or higher than 220 Mbps?
I think the Samurai does at ProRes HQ, but I'm noticing most people are going as high as 50mbps for projects. I was just wondering what sort of discerning qualities are noticeable in 220mbps as opposed to 50mpbs. Or is 220 over-kill for a camera like the AF100?
 
Here are the specs for ProRes. 220 in my opinion is overkill for 95% of your work.
http://documentation.apple.com/en/f...ws/index.html#chapter=10&section=4&tasks=true

Does anyone know if the BlackMagic 2 can record up to or higher than 220 Mbps?
I think the Samurai does at ProRes HQ, but I'm noticing most people are going as high as 50mbps for projects. I was just wondering what sort of discerning qualities are noticeable in 220mbps as opposed to 50mpbs. Or is 220 over-kill for a camera like the AF100?
 
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Bgundu, thanks for your response.
I mean, on a webpage the specs make sense - but when it comes to image quality, which is what most people (veterans to amateurs) look for, why would someone want to record up to 220mbps? Or less or higher?
Overkill, sure - but I'm sure 220mbps exists for a reason, right?
 
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