AF100 external recorder - Ninja 2 or Samurai?

anatusa - buying a nanoflash now I think would be a complete waste of $$$. It's only an 8-bit recorder which is great for the AF100 but what about all of the 10-bit cameras that will no doubt be hitting the market? Your nanoflash will become useless. Also, recording to a nano under 100mb/s I've been told would produce pretty much no quality difference over the internal AF100 codec. If you want to record with compression and want the best bang for the buck, I perosnally believe you can't go wrong with the Samuria. It's 10-bit 4:2:2 and you can use cheap 2.5" HDDs so you're not stuck using just SSDs like many of the other 10-bit recorders.

You mentioned that the Ninja and Samurai don't have the codec you want? What codec are you looking for? ProResHQ (which is 4:2:2 220mb/s) or even ProRes 422 seems fantastic and as far as I know, take far less processing power to edit compared to AVCHD... especially if you're grading.
 
Neither,
Go NanoFlash. Great value, still a viable recorder, low power consumption, easy to find CF cards, field proven. Very easy workflow. I have 3 of them, never failed yet.
 
Probably more importantly is that a 10bit recorder isn't going to mean much as you are recording an 8bit stream from the AF-100.
 
dregenthal said:
Probably more importantly is that a 10bit recorder isn't going to mean much as you are recording an 8bit stream from the AF-100.
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...but for almost the same price ($1,600 for a Samurai / $1,895 for a Nano) your Samurai will have a longer life as you can use it on future 10-bit cams... for exmaple, an F3 is 10-bit out...
 
Kindredmachine said:
...but for almost the same price ($1,600 for a Samurai / $1,895 for a Nano) your Samurai will have a longer life as you can use it on future 10-bit cams... for exmaple, an F3 is 10-bit out...
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Or for under $500 you can have built-in power, 10bit recording, both HDMI and SDI (and your first SSD).
The cost of SSD's are significantly less than P2's and are available in larger capacity.
The only thing you don't get for your money is a sub-standard screen . . . What am I missing?

For people who are interested there are FAQs and an informative PDF file on BM's website.
 
dregenthal said:
One has to consider what purpose they might have to record uncompressed in the first place . . . commercial green screen might be one?
I can't imagine, for my purposes, shooting exclusively in uncompressed . . .
There's also the issue of the kind of horsepower you'd need to edit out anything long form.
(for me).
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If I'm not mistaken, I think FCP X averts the "horsepower" crisis with a proxy media transcoding option.
 
dregenthal said:
Or for under $500 you can have built-in power, 10bit recording, both HDMI and SDI (and your first SSD).
The cost of SSD's are significantly less than P2's and are available in larger capacity.
The only thing you don't get for your money is a sub-standard screen . . . What am I missing?

For people who are interested there are FAQs and an informative PDF file on BM's website.
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But BM Shuttle only records Uncompressed Quicktime / AVID, no PRORES, right ?
 
ulisses said:
But BM Shuttle only records Uncompressed Quicktime / AVID, no PRORES, right ?
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from BMD's website (hope this helps):

"Unparalleled File Compatibility

HyperDeck Shuttle captures the world's most popular video files in native uncompressed 10-bit QuickTime and Avid DNxHD MXF files. Recording straight to DNxHD is perfect for working with the full Avid Media Composer family of software including NewsCutter and Symphony. There is no need to reformat or transcode your files, so you get the most efficient Avid workflow. DNxHD files can easily be graded natively with DaVinci Resolve using full AAF roundtrip with Media Composer. HyperDeck Shuttle also records direct to mathematically perfect quality uncompressed 10-bit QuickTime files that can be used with all popular video software like Final Cut Pro, Premiere Pro, After Effects, DaVinci Resolve and more!"

DNxHD btw, is available for both Mac & Windows from BMD's website--there's a ton of information...make the trip: http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/hyperdeckshuttle/ (also see the support section for manuals, faqs, etc.).

and, DaVinci Resolve Lite is a free download . . .
 
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Sorry to bring this thread up again but I'm looking into getting either the ninja or the samurai and was wondering how easy is it to attach to the af 100? It comes with the mounting plates etc right? I've tried to find a good picture but am a little confused. For an independent feature do you think it's integral to use one of these external recorders (like how the raid redemption did) or could you get away with using internal sd cards? Any great projects anyone know of where they just used sd cards?
 
taras4444 said:
Sorry to bring this thread up again but I'm looking into getting either the ninja or the samurai and was wondering how easy is it to attach to the af 100? It comes with the mounting plates etc right? I've tried to find a good picture but am a little confused. For an independent feature do you think it's integral to use one of these external recorders (like how the raid redemption did) or could you get away with using internal sd cards? Any great projects anyone know of where they just used sd cards?
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If your shooting a feature then yes I would use external recording. Less compression keeps the noise pattern clean (not mixed with macro blocking), great for denoising and reducing banding without looking too ugly. I frame encoding, post production codec, 422 equals more colour resolution, quite a lot of plusses to using external recording.

I would also go for the shuttle over the samurai and wouldn't consider the ninja or the nano flash.

The shuttle is cheap enough that if you take your samurai budget (£1200 in the uk) you could buy the shuttle (£225), mounting plate (£70) SSDs (3x Sandisk 120gb @£70 each = £210), small HD dp4 (about £350 with tax and delivery to the uk), ssd dock (£75 from OWC) and still have £270 change to go towards V mounts for your whole system. The beauty of this is that if the dp4 fails you don't lose the recorder and for budget conscious people who would just have the samurai for external monitoring, if the recorder fails you dont lose your screen plus you can mate the shuttle with any monitor you want or not at all. It mounts to rails pretty well too.

the nano is only 8 bit, I don't see the point in external capture at anything below prores or DNxHD, AVCHD is a great compressed capture format, why go to the expense to get 50-80 megs and restrict your capture to 8 bit devices on CF cards? I like that I can rent/borrow an F3 and get great 10 bit out of it and I like that I have SSDs and am used to the SSD workflow in readiness for using the BMCC.

Ninja is HDMI only, great for DSLRS but pointless for the AF. No 24psf either and expensive.

Samurai is a great tool with all the bits in the box but you won't use spinners once you have a failure and SSDs are cheap now. I have three Sandisk 120 gig drives, I get about an hour from each which is fine, I really wouldn't want more for 10 bit prores capture as its like putting all your eggs in one basket, its why I use 8/16 gig cards for AVCHD, you don't want a card failure or DIT screw up that loses you everything.

the shuttle does prores now and has uncompressed there for when that might be useful (overkill on the AF in my opinion)
 
I have the Samurai and it works great with the AF100. Once you're accustomed to its menus and get it set up properly, it starts and stops whenever you go into record on the AF100. This also has the advantage of dual recording so you have a backup with the camera's SD card.

The Samurai records in either ProRes or DNxHD with a selection of data rates. Recording at 24P (23.976fps) With ProRes HQ (the highest ProRes data rate) to a 256GB SSD, it gets a bit over 3 hours of recording time, pretty much just the same as a 32gb SD card gets on the camera.

The screen is useful with some nice features, but not as good as an external monitor (would you even expect it to be -- a good external monitor alone costs about as much as the Samurai).

Compared to external recorders that don't have a built-in screen, the Samurai has the advantage that you can take it off the camera and conveniently watch dailies on it during location moves or on the drive home. That comes in handy.

It gets good battery life which is a big plus.
 
John B. said:
I have the Samurai and it works great with the AF100. Once you're accustomed to its menus and get it set up properly, it starts and stops whenever you go into record on the AF100. This also has the advantage of dual recording so you have a backup with the camera's SD card.

The Samurai records in either ProRes or DNxHD with a selection of data rates. Recording at 24P (23.976fps) With ProRes HQ (the highest ProRes data rate) to a 256GB SSD, it gets a bit over 3 hours of recording time, pretty much just the same as a 32gb SD card gets on the camera.

The screen is useful with some nice features, but not as good as an external monitor (would you even expect it to be -- a good external monitor alone costs about as much as the Samurai).

Compared to external recorders that don't have a built-in screen, the Samurai has the advantage that you can take it off the camera and conveniently watch dailies on it during location moves or on the drive home. That comes in handy.

It gets good battery life which is a big plus.
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Im sure its a great device, the lack of prores on the shuttle is why I was initially looking at the samurai and its all in one pelican case purchase but once the shuttle gained prores it was a no brainier.

Extra recording rates is nice but once I have made the decision to use the recorder for prores over AVCHD on a job, I am already committed to larger files and i will only use 422HQ. I don't see the point in lower rates when committing to external recording, it's about maximum picture quality when I make that decision so i may consider the uncompressed feature but certainly not any lower rates but to each there own.

The shuttle triggers recording from the AF in the same way, dual recording is possible and is what I always do. When the DIT guy takes the SSDs for backup etc the director can stay at his monitor and review the takes from the AVCHD capture straight from the camera, I could technically mount the dp4 to the shuttle and review in the same manor as with your samurai but it seems a faff and not as elegant as the samurai in this case but its not something I'm bothered with, I either use the camera or the director uses the DIT laptop. I do like the FCPX flag option in the samurai though.

The screen seems to be what I am paying the bulk of the extra cash for on the Samurai so would hope it to be better than it is. There are better monitors out there than the DP4 that I use but the EVF loop is welcomed and not an option with the samurai.

I think Atomos should make a non screen external recorder at a lower cost as an option.
 
Also no HDMI on the Samurai, not a preferred connection but for some cameras (D800 for example) it is needed.

i don't work for Blackmagic by the way ;0)
 
I don't have a particular allegiance to any recorder manufacturer. I was just sharing my findings and experiences for anyone in the process of deciding which is the best tool for their given situation.

I thought it might be helpful.
 
I think Atomos should make a non screen external recorder at a lower cost as an option.
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The Atomos device is controlled and setup via the screen using a custom built operating system. You are asking them to build an entirely new device and OS.
 
I had the ninja before the samurai came out. If you really need the HDMI, Atomos sell the tiny HDMI to SDI converter. The peaking function on the screen is actually not to bad. But in most cases it became the directors monitor too. I use it on my Scarlet now.
 
Shooter said:
The Atomos device is controlled and setup via the screen using a custom built operating system. You are asking them to build an entirely new device and OS.
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I think it would be good for them to have that as an option but I guess they will then be up against there own product as well as the other devices on the market.

I prefer buttons over touch screen, fine for your iPhone but not on an AV device in my opinion. I'm used to my switchers and av racks I guess.
 
Fair enough. The way technology is rapidly changing and ever changing firmware, a touch screen usually makes a product have a longer shelf life because the interface and functionality can be updated easily.

XSVpro said:
I think it would be good for them to have that as an option but I guess they will then be up against there own product as well as the other devices on the market.

I prefer buttons over touch screen, fine for your iPhone but not on an AV device in my opinion. I'm used to my switchers and av racks I guess.
Click to expand...
 
John B. said:
I don't have a particular allegiance to any recorder manufacturer. I was just sharing my findings and experiences for anyone in the process of deciding which is the best tool for their given situation.

I thought it might be helpful.
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Thanks for your post, I'm just doing the same but referencing your experience with the samurai. I think they are over priced by a few hundred pounds but can't deny they are a nice product.
 
bgundu said:
Fair enough. The way technology is rapidly changing and ever changing firmware, a touch screen usually makes a product have a longer shelf life because the interface and functionality can be updated easily.
Click to expand...

I don't follow? How does a touch screen give a device a longer shelf life or help with firmware updates over something that doesn't have a touch screen? I just see the touch screen as something extra to go wrong or something that will fowl up if you are having to wear gloves but then that's down to the environment you are filming in really.

I know Atomos gave extra functions to the monitor, is tht what you are referring to?
 
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