Homunculus
Carbonite Member
You think the 7d has the same dynamic range as a Red One? Damn bro, let me get a pull of that good stuff you're smoking hehe :2vrolijk_08:
What is the difference between "latitude" and dynamic range?
AF100 / AF101 - initial report
- Thread starter Barry_Green
- Start date
You think the 7d has the same dynamic range as a Red One? Damn bro, let me get a pull of that good stuff you're smoking hehe :2vrolijk_08:
What is the difference between "latitude" and dynamic range?
xmephestox
Carbonite Member
latititude is a more general term of how far you can expose before your unacceptably under exposed and over exposed. certain stocks of film for example have 1-2 stops of latitude which gives you a very unique look but very hard to expose for.
dynamic range describes the graduation and the ability to see different tonal differences in the subtly of your exposure before it's lost. from the bottom of your shadows to the top end in your highlights before you lose all detail. and everything in between, that's why you see a graduated step chart with all your DR tests. it's to see how many graduations of light to dark you can get out of it, which offers subtly in the look of the image which is generally more organic and aesthetically pleasing because the human eye in itself can pick up so much.
but usable DR is a different story, you may be able to dig out detail and graduations in the bottom but they could have so much noise u won't want to use it, and you can bring down from certain areas of your highlights but are so close to clipping, it will give you a grey milky look you might not want.
dynamic range describes the graduation and the ability to see different tonal differences in the subtly of your exposure before it's lost. from the bottom of your shadows to the top end in your highlights before you lose all detail. and everything in between, that's why you see a graduated step chart with all your DR tests. it's to see how many graduations of light to dark you can get out of it, which offers subtly in the look of the image which is generally more organic and aesthetically pleasing because the human eye in itself can pick up so much.
but usable DR is a different story, you may be able to dig out detail and graduations in the bottom but they could have so much noise u won't want to use it, and you can bring down from certain areas of your highlights but are so close to clipping, it will give you a grey milky look you might not want.
Dynamic range is the maximum value range expressed as either signal to noise ratio or as F stops between white clip saturation point and the black level or noise floor where no image detail can be resolved. This is a fixed physical limit of the sensor/film performance. How the image is exposed and processed affects how much of this range is really useable.
Latittude is the practical range of EV or ISO exposure settings for middle grey that you have within the available dynamic range before you get unacceptable noise in the dark areas or unacceptable clipping in the whites.
My GL2 for example has a dynamic range at 0 gain of about 7 stops and useable exposure lattitude of 50-200 ISO, with 100 ISO being the sweet spot.
Latittude is the practical range of EV or ISO exposure settings for middle grey that you have within the available dynamic range before you get unacceptable noise in the dark areas or unacceptable clipping in the whites.
My GL2 for example has a dynamic range at 0 gain of about 7 stops and useable exposure lattitude of 50-200 ISO, with 100 ISO being the sweet spot.
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Ryan Patrick O'Hara
Veteran
OK, I moved this question here:
Is Panasonic really putting in 2.35:1 frame guides?!
That is really cool, since I shoot anamorphic (cropped or actual lenses) .... but there is one issue I have... the projection standard has been 2.39:1 or called 2.40 for almost 40 years now.
Wonder why they went that route. American Cinematographers manual, Panavision and Arri are now all getting along with 2.39:1. I'd love to see the term 2.35:1 finally go away. Not saying it's wrong, but if you are discussing final format aspect ratios, the ones that are popular AND standardized by committees include 4:3, 16:9, 1.85:1, 2.39:1. Might be more, but those are the ones I'm familiar with.
I don't think you'll find 2.35 as a modern standard presentation format anywhere. Why DVD's still advert for it is beyond me.
Is Panasonic really putting in 2.35:1 frame guides?!
That is really cool, since I shoot anamorphic (cropped or actual lenses) .... but there is one issue I have... the projection standard has been 2.39:1 or called 2.40 for almost 40 years now.
Wonder why they went that route. American Cinematographers manual, Panavision and Arri are now all getting along with 2.39:1. I'd love to see the term 2.35:1 finally go away. Not saying it's wrong, but if you are discussing final format aspect ratios, the ones that are popular AND standardized by committees include 4:3, 16:9, 1.85:1, 2.39:1. Might be more, but those are the ones I'm familiar with.
I don't think you'll find 2.35 as a modern standard presentation format anywhere. Why DVD's still advert for it is beyond me.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Yes they have 2.35 frame guides in it. I had already asked them to change it to 2.39; we'll see what happens in the final version.
Steve Kahn
Well-known member
8bit to 10bit hack...
If Panasonic doesn't go 10bit: any idea how difficult this hack would be Vitaliy?
(I know in a few years when cameras are 32bit float I'm going to look back at this question and laugh)
If Panasonic doesn't go 10bit: any idea how difficult this hack would be Vitaliy?
(I know in a few years when cameras are 32bit float I'm going to look back at this question and laugh)
Vitaliy Kiselev
Carbonite Member
xmephestox
Carbonite Member
for the SDI and HDMI to be 10 bit, is that solely firmware, or is that a hardware component that determines that?
Homunculus
Carbonite Member
Vitaly. You let the first opportunity get away. Don't let the 2nd one get away too. For your next hack, use the proprietary method and charge $100 to hack the camera and people must send in their cameras to you. Then you will be rich.
Vitaliy Kiselev
Carbonite Member
Sometimes it is better to think before writing something
.But I like idea of special coupons that could transfer $100 to me directly from Panasonic account (may be high managment bonuses account?)
Dark humour.Well you are starting with Bayer CMOS raw data. It can be encoded to anything. That part is software. But whether the hardware can support that software is a different question.
7D and 5D both have more DR than the original Red One (although no Red user will ever admit it). The new MX has about 13 stops so it does have more then the 7D/5D but mostly in the highlights. Red defiantly has more Latitude (i.e. "exposure compensation", thanks to RAW format) but there is nothing special about the "Red" name-tag that makes it have magically more dynamic range than any other camera. Dynamic range is all about sensor size... Bigger sensors soak-up more light (unless they're engineered poorly).
Take a look at this video if you haven't see it already. Red, 5D, and 7D were all used in this... and you can't really tell any shots apart. Probably at 1080p you could... but the point is all the shots capture the flames in the same way. If the 7D and 5D really had noticeably less DR, it would be a huge jump in the exposure range from shot to shot.
http://vimeo.com/14681630
Homunculus
Carbonite Member
Wow and I thought you were kidding. You truly believe this stuff huh? I feel sad for you my friend. DR is not about just sensor size, it has many factors including the colorspace, bit depth information etc.
5d and 7d have roughly the same dynamic range as GH1. Which is about 8 stops give or take. They are not even close to the Red, please don't kid yourself pal. Even in photo stills mode the 7d/5d are just approaching the Red and do not even match nor surpass it.
Ryan Patrick O'Hara
Veteran
yes sensor size does effect the sensitivity but don't forget that among other factors, how you pack that area with pixel size / photosites have alot to do with it. Theoretically a S35mm 'like' sensor size with just 1080p worth of pixels would have larger, cleaner, and more sensitive photosites than say the same size sensor packed with 4k worth of pixels. There is of course more variables... But that basic idea holds true. Packing more pixels into the same area will result in photosites gathering less photons. This is why 2/3" chips always were more sensitive and clean than their 1/3" HD brothers.
No actually in formal testing they do not. The 5D has greater sensitivity, but that is not the same thing as DR. Even the original Red M sensor will hold details deeper into the shadows than any VDSLR shooting video, especially with the more recent software builds. That may not be the case for raw stills, but the video is another matter altogether. You can't judge this from a compressed web video where the best you are going to get is about 7 stops DR anyway.
Ryan Patrick O'Hara
Veteran
I'm just wondering where our greek friend otis is. He'd school us all into oblivion. I guess he missed the memo about the AF100 party over here.
Homunculus
Carbonite Member
Shadows AND highlights as far as I'm concerned. Even original Red One holds better highlights with higher DR than any DSLR including canon 5d/7d
And mine to you for my having shown such a thin skin.
Respect, and a glass of boxed burgundy, to you.
Ryan Patrick O'Hara
Veteran
Rick Burnett
Section Moderator
Actually, the raw data off the CMOS is going to be analog, so the question is, what is the bit depth of the A2D pipeline off the sensor. If this were 8 bit then from an acquisition standpoint, you'd be hardware limited. I have absolutely no insight to their A2D circuitry, just pointing out that it could be a hardware limit. Sure, you could pack that in 10-bit but you aren't gaining anything except wasted space
Now, if they do have higher resolution A2D, then it becomes a question if they do any sort of full hardware compression down into 8-bit. The reason being, hardware is ALWAYS faster than software in the same technology node, but again, who knows.