AF100 / AF101 - initial report

[Barry_Green]

The AF-100 records to AVCHD, right? is that the same AVCHD that the HMC40 records to?

Yes and no. It's an AVCCAM camera so it has the same formats (well, it has HE and HA and PH mode, no HG mode). But its PH mode is enhanced to have uncompressed audio. None of the other AVCCAM cameras have uncompressed LPCM audio.

Barry (or anyone familiar with with cam) - are there any plans to release an AF-100 style camera with a more robust codec? AVCIntra, DVCProHD? A P2 version?

Welcome to frequently-asked-question #1. We've been hammering the Panasonic folks for quite a while about that. Look in the wishlist for the number of times people requested it. I think at this time, there is no chance that the AF100 will have a P2/AVC-Intra codec. So now I've started harping on them to bring out another model, say, an AF150 or something like that, that would be P2. I think a lot of folks would like to see that. But for whatever reason, this unit is going to be AVCCAM.

Of course, you could always hook up a nanoflash or a KiPro Mini to the AF100's HD-SDI or HDMI outputs.

Can't wait to see footage from this thing. Thanks for the info Barry.

I don't know when they'll release actual footage. Thing is, the camera's only about 70% done. If you saw footage today, it wouldn't even necessarily be representative of what the final footage will be. The stuff I shot isn't really designed to be "beauty footage" (I'm not Philip Bloom!) I was shooting test footage, including merciless brick building footage in an attempt to find the camera's limits and "break" it. I figured if I could find the limits and break it, and then report back to them, they'd have a better chance to fix it before release. So I don't know that releasing any of the footage that I shot would really be of much benefit for showing what the camcorder is capable of.

I'd like to do a proper studio shoot, the way folks are going to want to be shooting with it, to demonstrate what it's capable of. They did have someone from Germany shoot some nice semi-dramatic footage which they showed at the press conference; maybe they'll release some of that? I don't know.

 

[Barry_Green]

How did the 14-35 fair at it's widest point

Looked great to me. It's a great lens.

and can you go as far as a 10mm lens with out vignetting?

Certainly. I used an 8mm lens on it, a Peleng 8mm fisheye, with no vignetting at all. And apparently Panasonic is making an 8mm fisheye in m43 mount too, so yeah, 8mm is totally approachable.

Actually, they make even wider than that, they have a 7mm-14mm zoom.

 

[Peter J. DeCrescenzo]

... Havent been able to see one photo of the back. Anyone got one? ...

Here you go:
http://urbanfoxtv.blogspot.com/2010/09/new-panasonic-af100af101.html

 

[Barry_Green]

Barry, for Christ's sake, are you sure???:cheesy:
Do you mean 60fps VFR in 1920x1080?

That's exactly what I mean. That's what I shot. I shot a bunch of 32fps, 40fps, 44fps, and 60fps stuff in 1080.

What it won't do is "live"-looking 1080/60p. But it will do 1080/24p @ up to 60fps, or 1080/30p @ up to 60fps, or 1080/25p @ up to 50fps.

Plus, it has 720p mode with VFR too.

So yes, it's 1920x1080 @ 60fps recording, with playback at 24p or 30p.

 

[Vitaliy Kiselev]

So yes, it's 1920x1080 @ 60fps recording, with playback at 24p or 30p.

Do you know any reason for this?
I know about AVCHD standards problems.
But from hardware POV it sounds nuts.
As I understand, if you use NLE with custom set fps it do not matter at all.
And Barry, send them my personal request to add two CinemaLike(tm) fps at 48fps and 72fps with ability to combine frames in camera.

 

[Barry_Green]

Barry, how do you feel about the high ISO when comparing it to a DSLR.

Can't say, as the high ISOs were one of the things not available to test. They were in the menus, but not enabled yet. Remember, this is a *very early* prototype -- the first engineering sample that they've let anyone actually see. It's a newborn baby, so not everything is fully functional yet.

Do you think it's at least rated at a 800 ISO or less? or more?

Well, that depends on what you mean by "rated". I think the default is about 400, and the only ISOs I was able to test were 400, 640, and 800. And I'll say this, even though it doesn't make much sense -- there wasn't a substantial difference in noise between 400, 640, and 800. I shot colored scenes, I shot gray bars, and I hooked up a professional dedicated waveform monitor and examined the image on a line-by-line basis, looking for a spike in the noise signature. And while there may have been a minor difference, there certainly wasn't a substantial one, at least on this prototype.

EDIT -- but, guys, remember, this is a prototype! I've been thinking about this, and it's possible that the componentry in the camera might have been contributing a certain level of noise anyway, maybe on the SDI output. Maybe the recorded footage would show more of a difference in noise. I didn't record footage of test charts for hyper-analyzation, I was reviewing it live off a monitor. -- [/EDIT]

Basically, the camera appears to be very clean in the midtones and highlights. I could find some noise in the deepest blacks, but certainly not objectionable, at least at the 400 ISO I was shooting at. It's pretty clean. Not noise-free, and if you use DRS you'll definitely see a big jump in shadow noise (which should be expected, because it's probably exposing the shadows to as much gain as to make them equivalent to 3200 ISO!)

-- well, okay, so this is how I tested it -- I found the shadow noise, and I complained to the engineers and asked them to clean it up. And I said "I want it at least as clean as the HMC150, if not cleaner." So they brought out an HMC150 and hooked it up, and while the HMC150 is a pretty clean camcorder, it was way noisier than anything in the AF100's image! Once I saw that, I quit griping. I mean, I still want them to improve it to where it's completely noise-free, of course, but already it's very very very clean compared to an HPX170/HMC150, and over most of the tonal scale it's arguably noiseless. Not saying that there's not something there, but you'd have to be so anal-retentive that your butt's the size of the hindenburg in order to complain about noise in the mids or highlights!

If you pixel-peep for it, you'll find it. Especially if you go looking in the shadows, you will find noise. But again, the camera isn't done. They said the imaging was only at 70%. Let's let them get to 95% before we start making real judgements.

Does the noise patterning feel more filmic or is it that ugly fast moving colored noise to what Canon DSLRS do? No false color?

Not sure what you mean about "false color" - do you mean chroma noise? There doesn't appear to be anything in the way of chroma noise in what I saw. What noise is there, appears to be the finely-speckled luma noise, not the blotchy chroma noise (like what appears on the HVX200, for example). The HPX170 is much cleaner than the HVX200, and its noise is more of a fine texture and primarily luma noise. The AF100 has much less noise than an HPX170, and it's more of a similar luma character, not blotchy chroma noise with its attendant orange/red blotchiness.

 

[Barry_Green]

if af100 stays at 6 grand

European pricing was announced as "tentatively set to RRP at 4900 Euros". No indications were given on what US pricing will be.

 

[Barry_Green]

HD Magazine reports a list price for the AF101 of "£4,059.00 + VAT", but they don't say what's included for that price:
http://www.definitionmagazine.com/journal/2010/9/10/new-cameras-and-prices-from-show-floor.html

Note that list prices are affected by many factors so you shouldn't do a simple currency conversion to your own local currency. I suspect we'll hear pricing for the US & other countries by the press conference later today.

Yeah, I don't know where HD Magazine is getting their info. The ONLY official pricing announced anywhere is "tentative suggested RRP of 4900 Euros". Anything else is simply not official or accurate.

 

[Barry_Green]

Wow: Better than "921,000 dots" (the HPX370 LCD's res)?

Yes.

That will be excellent if the final production AF100 cams include that feature!

I can't say what I was told, but I was told that it's better than the HPX370's. Well, let me hedge that -- I was told that either the LCD or the EVF was going to be better, but I don't remember which one. Either way, it should be pretty excellent. The days of the HVX200's LCD panel are finally completely behind us!

 

[Luis Caffesse]

The days of the HVX200's LCD panel are finally completely behind us!

I can't tell you how long I've waited to hear those words.

 

[Barry_Green]

Is the SDI output 10-bits?

No answer was given. My guess is 8-bit, but we'll see. All the other AG-series cameras are 8-bit. (well, except the HPX370, but that's an AVC-Intra camcorder so it has to be 10-bit all the way through).

 

[Barry_Green]

Hi Barry: Did the press conference happen? Any interesting announcements? (It's now 11PM in Amsterdam.)

Press conference happened, not really any new announcements that I haven't already listed (except the "tentative" suggested retail price of 4900 euros).

They also talked about the HPX3100, which we already knew about, and the 3-D camera, which we already knew about. Showed 3D footage, talked about the end-to-end 3D production chain (they called it "Camera To Couch"). Lots of talk about switchers and remote cameras and stuff that I'm not really interested in. They said that they've pulled even with Sony in terms of overall market share, which is a huge accomplishment for Europe. They said they've sold 165,000 P2 cameras worldwide, which is a huge uptake, and they had several guest speakers commenting about how they're using their products (of which I was one; I got to go up and tell about my experiences with the AF100). Someone from Sky told about how they're building a whole studio out of P2/AVC-Intra products, which was pretty big news for Europe. They talked about a new version of the P2 Mobile (HPM200) and that they have a studio deck version of it, but ... really, it was all fairly well-trod territory, most of it having been listed in the press releases already.

 

[Barry_Green]

I shudder to think about where Barry might be at 11PM in Amsterdam.

Dude, I grew up in Las Vegas. And I >never< saw stuff there, like they have here.

Was shooting in downtown and we walked by a cafe that had a "no smoking" sign. Well, at least, that's what I thought it was: it had a picture of a cigarette with a circle and a slash through it." And I thought -- wait -- this is Europe, I thought you were >required< to smoke? So I looked closer and it said "Smoking allowed. No tobacco."

Ah, I get it...

But yeah, that was the tame stuff. Amsterdam is not a shy town.

 

[Barry_Green]

Peter, interestingly, the specs on that landing page tout, "Twin HD-SDI output(L/R)". Huh? I'm guessing this isn't Dual Link 4:4:4.

Barry?

Uh, no idea what that means. There's only one HD-SDI port on it. There's HD-SDI and also HDMI, but ... I think you're looking at some sort of marketing typo there.

There's no beamsplitter, there's no 3-D, it's a conventional cinema camera.

 

[Barry_Green]

Recording format HE only for 1080/59 and 1080/50 - thats confuses me a little. Does it mean you can only record those formats in HE mode at a measly 6mbps?

No, it's the opposite -- it means you can only record 6mbps in 59.94i or 50i. Meaning, no access to 1080@24p/25p/30p or 720p.

HE and HA mode are only for 1080 interlaced mode. PH mode is the only one that supports 1080p and 720p.

And what is 97P/23 etc? Does it mean you can shoot 97 fps into a 23fps recording?

I had >no< idea what you were talking about, so I looked at the blog, and it looks like they used a "," instead of a "." Read it again, but substitute periods for the commas, and it makes a lot more sense:

1080i/50, 25p, 1080/59.94i/29.97p/23.98p, 720/50p, 25p, 720/59.94p/29.97p/23.98p

 

[Peter J. DeCrescenzo]

Barry, thanks very much for all the info!

Aside: Maybe this thread should be moved to the new AF100 category on DVXuser, to keep all the info/threads in one place?

 

[Barry_Green]

Has panasonic given an official sensitivity rating yet? 800 is kind of the new standard new with a lot of high end cameras, I wonder if they were able to do that to the af100 as well. 800 iso clean, and up to 2000 iso with a very acceptable noise threshold puts it right up there with a RED MX and Alexa.

No official rating has been set yet or standardized. But from what I experienced on the early prototype, 800 looks to be pretty darn usable.

 

[Barry_Green]

will there be a remote port for start stop?

Yes there is, and there's also remote control for iris and for focus (on autofocus-enabled lenses of course). Same remote controls as a DVX/HVX/HPX170/HMC150.

 

[Joe Lawry]

Do we know officially what magnification you get with this camera and nikon lenses yet? sorry if this has already been confirmed.

 

[Barry_Green]

Do you know any reason for this?
I know about AVCHD standards problems.
But from hardware POV it sounds nuts.
As I understand, if you use NLE with custom set fps it do not matter at all.
And Barry, send them my personal request to add two CinemaLike(tm) fps at 48fps and 72fps with ability to combine frames in camera.

I don't know what the reasoning is. But I can answer at least part of your second question -- it already has 48fps...