AF-101 'on the set': some pics

Who cares... you can get a great image from all of the above. The HDDSLR has proven to be an essential tool in the tool box. Leave it at that move on.
 
grimepoch said:
Because the Zacuto test was about photo mode, which uses the entire sensor and doesn't throw out any pixel information.
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uhhh... I think you need to watch it again. They never used photo mode until one part at the very end where they showed what a RAW video image could look like. Everything else was video mode.
 
I am not going into who is best, who will be best, etc, etc... But as a photographer I would like to bring some reality here. I am not talking about video dynamic range of the Dslr here but on the photo side. It is a fact now that all the recent sensor of the last two to three years give at least 11.5 to 12 stop of dynamic range. The highest being the Nikon D3x rated at about 13.7 stop at DXO mark. Result varies between reviewers site like Dpreview but by acceptable margins. These result are in RAW so as to give a little sense of perspective towards the red sensor which itself is in raw. So in pure sensor performance the red is very very good, but not some sort of alien technology trumping the other manufactures by 2 to 3 stop of dynamic range. You cannot use the result of the jpeg engine to say the Canon or Nikon show 8 - 9 stop, again I am talking pure sensor raw still performance.

Now in video I don' t know, the only site that I see which has a collection of test from the canon 5d to the Arri Alexa and Red (One, Mx) is provideocoalition.com and it puts the Canon 5D quite close to the Redone, about a stop difference only but his test is a bit confusing in some place. The individual conclusion of his original red mx and the comparison of the red Mx and Alexa test below being an example. I don' t know if he has changed methodology or not. The last thing is the the 7d and 5d share about the same dynamic range in RAW still mode. Smaller pixel does not mean lower dynamic range necessarily as illustrated by the Nikon D3x 24 mega pixel compared to the Nikon d3 12 mega pixel having about a stop more dynamic Range. Iso is the same thing, technology advances until someday we will reach some physical limit. But until now we can see the latest crop of 16 mega pixel sensor giving a stop better Iso quality than the last 12 mega pixel ones.

http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/freshdv/story/epic_vs_alexa_dynamic_range/
 
Just to confuse things further, ASC DP Shane Hurlbut says he gets 12 stops out of the 5DII with his camera/post settings and choice of lens. No one has more experience with the 5DII than he does.

Of course Red has announced that they are getting 18 stops with their HDRX system that will be incorporated in all their new cameras.
 
bwhitz said:
uhhh... I think you need to watch it again. They never used photo mode until one part at the very end where they showed what a RAW video image could look like. Everything else was video mode.
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Ahhh, you are correct. I had this confused with another test I had looked at. Thanks for pointing that out. Wish they had a good fast forward feature, had to watch the whole thing again! :)

Would be nice for them to share some waveform views of the results like some of the tests did.
 
Danielvilliers said:
So in pure sensor performance the red is very very good, but not some sort of alien technology trumping the other manufactures by 2 to 3 stop of dynamic range.

http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/freshdv/story/epic_vs_alexa_dynamic_range/
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Thank you... that was the whole point I was trying to make. Red is an awesome company doing allot of innovative stuff... but in terms of pure sensor design... it's not something that Nikon or Canon aren't capable of or haven't seen before. In fact, I'm not 100 percent sure, but I could swear I remember hearing that the original mysterium sensor was actually manufactured by Canon or Nikon.

Oh and here's a direct quote from that article...

"... Also, reading a Dynamic Range chart is NOT an exact science. Because there is rarely a sudden clip in blacks and the highlights, you have to guesstimate at which point in the highlights or shadows the recorded image becomes unusable…and that is subject to personal bias and your own threshold of what is usable and what is not. Some people don’t mind a little extra noise in the shadows, others demand pristine near-blacks. It’s a very subjective thing interpreting these charts."

There you go... If you feel that the 7D is a 8 stop camera, light and shoot like it's an 8 stop camera. But if you like to tweak settings and use some decent glass, you're going to find that you can stretch the performance quite a bit.
 
And this article compares Alexa and Epic, NOT Epic and Canon or Epic and Nikon. Until I see proof that Canon has made such a sensor, they are behind the curve. Period. It really has NO RELEVANCE what they are capable of if they don't do it. You could say "Canon is capable of making a 20+ stop sensor" So what? If they don't make it, I can't use it, and so it's a pointless statement.

TSMC is one of the biggest fabs in the world yet that doesn't mean they can make a great microprocessor. Yet they fab them all the time. Because their part of the process has nothing to do with design, it's all a matter of chemical engineering at that point. There is a LOT more to engineering than just the process.

The Epic and Alexa are MUCH more expensive that the 7D, they should be better! But thinking you can get the same freedom in performance out of the 7D is just plain wrong. It's more than DR. It's rolling shutter, it's compression, it's moire/aliasing.

It's the same argument over and over. The point is, you can get great beautiful stuff on the 7D and even older cameras, that said, the conditions that you can get great images is greatly reduced. It's not about what the BEST thing you can produce on those cameras, it's about what option you have about what goes into the camera.

With a camera like the AF100, I will:

1. Be able to shoot scenes with a larger DR. I don't have to keep all the light in my scene within a smaller range if I want to protect maybe the light coming in a window that is a bit too much. Sure, I can bring this down or bring up the light, but in many cases this will save me extra time on set. I like the freedom of not having to fine tune EVERY scene because the DR is more limited IN MY OPINION. I say this because *I* make the determination of where usable DR is on my 7D and how much noise I have to bring up in the blacks.

2. I can pan my camera a little faster with tele lens, or, if I am moving, allow a little more movement in my motion without as huge a jello issue. This is a constant issue for more dynamic shots that I deal with all the time. I don't want to lock down every shot, and sometimes, I am shooting from a position or location where a stabilizer doesn't fit. There is IS but not all fast lenses have this.

3. It allows me to get a cleaner pull from greenscreen footage, especially with hair and such, with better compression. Macro blocking even with proper lighting on my 7D has made footage that is difficult to key. Lots of color contamination.

4. It allows me to shoot deeper focus without losing all my detail in the distance.

5. It allows me to shoot urban scenes without having distant brick buildings creating rainbow moire all over them. Or people wearing suits and having the suit moire dance all over the place. In addition, moire/aliasing causes huge problems with keying with fine hair detail and the color contamination Canon exhibits.

Sure, I can work around all these, I do every day, but these are ALL instances of where the sensor in my 7D by CANON is causing me to limit what I can shoot, or, increase the amount of work I need to do in my scene to push it into the cameras limitations. If I shoot everything shallow focus, check every fabric, lock the camera down, bring in the DR of the scene, sure, I'll get really nice shots.

It's not just tweaking the settings of the camera, or changing my glass, my glass looks great, it's the sensor that needs to be updated, and the system speed.

I want more freedom in my shooting.
 
bwhitz said:
Thank you... that was the whole point I was trying to make. Red is an awesome company doing allot of innovative stuff... but in terms of pure sensor design... it's not something that Nikon or Canon aren't capable of or haven't seen before. In fact, I'm not 100 percent sure, but I could swear I remember hearing that the original mysterium sensor was actually manufactured by Canon or Nikon.

.
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The thing is RED offers much more than just much higher quality than vDSLR - it offers Cinema Style integration - it was designed to ween people away from film in terms of modularity, flexibility and lens systems. It emulates the film workflow as much as possible but in the digital domain.

That's why vDSLR can't even hold a candle here.

The AF100 is at least moving in the right direction, vDSLR are good stills cameras with iffy video quality as a bolt-on that looks good on vimeo.

Are we seriously still comparing vDSLR to RED?
 
grimepoch said:
And this article compares Alexa and Epic, NOT Epic and Canon or Epic and Nikon. Until I see proof that Canon has made such a sensor, they are behind the curve. Period. It really has NO RELEVANCE what they are capable of if they don't do it. You could say "Canon is capable of making a 20+ stop sensor" So what? If they don't make it, I can't use it, and so it's a pointless statement.
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I was mainly pointing to the article for the points it was making about dynamic range being tricky to measure and how allot of it is subjective...

BTW, here's some proof... http://www.technewsdaily.com/canon-giant-new-image-sensor-photography-cmos-1184/

grimepoch said:
1. Be able to shoot scenes with a larger DR. I don't have to keep all the light in my scene within a smaller range if I want to protect maybe the light coming in a window that is a bit too much. Sure, I can bring this down or bring up the light, but in many cases this will save me extra time on set. I like the freedom of not having to fine tune EVERY scene because the DR is more limited IN MY OPINION. I say this because *I* make the determination of where usable DR is on my 7D and how much noise I have to bring up in the blacks.
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All signs seem to point to this... But we simply don't know this for a fact yet. I really hope it's better... I'm not a fan-boy of anything. I really could give a shi* what manufacturer makes what. I just give credit where credit is due and if the blacks on the AF-100 look anything like the GH1... I'm going to have to take a pass. Blacks are handles extremely well on the 7D and 5D, despite compression. I really hope the DR is better on the AF-100, shi* I hope it's hitting 14 stops and gives the Epic a run for it's money, but it is a smaller sensor than APS-C and if Panny isn't using any of that gap-less Micro-lensing that Canon is... we could very well see a lower overall dynamic range. Though, the mid-tones should definaly be better on the AF-100.

Overall, yea, I think it's going to be a better cam though. Especially with that 60fps over-cranking in 1080p... I NEED that. I've got money set aside right now, but I'm going to wait until there is some real results.

ROne said:
The thing is RED offers much more than just much higher quality than vDSLR - it offers Cinema Style integration - it was designed to ween people away from film in terms of modularity, flexibility and lens systems. It emulates the film workflow as much as possible but in the digital domain.

Are we seriously still comparing vDSLR to RED?
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Yea, that's the problem. The Cinema style work-flow... how can I eloquently put this? ...sucks balls. Giant camera systems are a paint in the ass. That's the main reason the DSLRs are being compared to Red. They give you the "look", not necessarily the quality, that Red and film have in a tiny package that all the sudden drops the cost of production by 100 fold. You can throw them on a steady-cam with no need for a $10,000 vest and arm system... you can use lighter less-expensive cranes... cheaper car mounts... they go in tighter spaces... the list goes on. Overall the DSLRs ARE a much better film-making camera. They just give the lower quality image at the moment, but still... it's an great image. That's why the Epic is going to rock the **** out of Alexa and all other cameras for that matter. You get a better image... plus it's small and modular like a SLR.
 
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bwhitz said:
I was mainly pointing to the article for the points it was making about dynamic range being tricky to measure and how allot of it is subjective...

BTW, here's some proof... http://www.technewsdaily.com/canon-giant-new-image-sensor-photography-cmos-1184/



All signs seem to point to this... But we simply don't know this for a fact yet. I really hope it's better... I'm not a fan-boy of anything. I really could give a shi* what manufacturer makes what. I just give credit where credit is due and if the blacks on the AF-100 look anything like the GH1... I'm going to have to take a pass. Blacks are handles extremely well on the 7D and 5D, despite compression. I really hope the DR is better on the AF-100, shi* I hope it's hitting 14 stops and gives the Epic a run for it's money, but it is a smaller sensor than APS-C and if Panny isn't using any of that gap-less Micro-lensing that Canon is... we could very well see a lower overall dynamic range. Though, the mid-tones should definaly be better on the AF-100.

Overall, yea, I think it's going to be a better cam though. Especially with that 60fps over-cranking in 1080p... I NEED that. I've got money set aside right now, but I'm going to wait until there is some real results.
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I agree with you that DR is subjective. It all comes down to how much noise you are willing to accept. But unfortunately, these chart tests are the closest thing for us to try and relate one cameras response to another. I think they are very useful for someone when they have a camera they know, like me and my 7D, and they want to see what kind of relationship they have to each other. But, as I am sure you know and many point out, DR is one aspect.

Btw, I have seen that sensor from Canon. I wonder what glass they are going to use on that!!! :) Until I see some test footage and tests, I'll just leave it as "interesting" in my mind. Don't forget Canon's 4k hair dryer prototype either. Again, "Interesting" but useless to me at the moment. I'll be excited when they get rid of their rainbows in their moire. (And I'd DEFINTELY upgrade my 7D to a newer 7D if they did this and use it as a B camera NO QUESTION).
 
f64manray said:
Just to confuse things further, ASC DP Shane Hurlbut says he gets 12 stops out of the 5DII with his camera/post settings and choice of lens. No one has more experience with the 5DII than he does.

Of course Red has announced that they are getting 18 stops with their HDRX system that will be incorporated in all their new cameras.
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Yeah, he also says that Master Primes "suck balls", so excuse me if I don't believe what he says.
 
f64manray said:
Just to confuse things further, ASC DP Shane Hurlbut says he gets 12 stops out of the 5DII with his camera/post settings and choice of lens. No one has more experience with the 5DII than he does.

Of course Red has announced that they are getting 18 stops with their HDRX system that will be incorporated in all their new cameras.
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I dunno Hurlbut has also stated some very 'interesting' things, like particular lenses increase his dynamic range by like 2 stops or more. Sounds fishy to me, he seems a tad eccentric with his claims of the 5d. He also claims to love 5D compression and what it does to skin tones, saying the compression gives it a film like quality. (WTF??)
 
mcgeedigital said:
Yeah, he also says that Master Primes "suck balls", so excuse me if I don't believe what he says.
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yeah here's another amazing remark of his. master primes 'suck' but his special canon stills lenses give him 2-3 more stops of DR and the crappy DSLR compression is amazing and gives a film like quality to skin tones. This guy is just amazing. I don't know what canon is paying him but it better be something huge :thumbsup:
 
Homunculus said:
He also claims to love 5D compression and what it does to skin tones, saying the compression gives it a film like quality. (WTF??)
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It does act as an instant "digital make-up" hiding blemishes and details that something like a Red One would show... film also hides these blemishes too, due to it's softer-than-digital nature. He could have meant it in that regard... or... he's part of that dern global Canon conspiracy.
 
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