Advice

S

Steve Holmes

Member
I am on the verge of investing in a new camera for documenting work, like concerts, theatre performances, corporate videos and short films and up until the EX1 came out I was already to get a HVX 200 now I am not so sure.

After seeing the footage of the EX1 it looks great and would work nicely with my m2 as the EX1 has good low light performance. When this is added to the price with 2 8gb cards it becomes very tempting but there are some issues I wanted to get some advice on. I have a G5 Dual 2GHZ with AJA LH in, (and a MBP 2.4 which I would rather not edit on) I am not sure how the old G5 will cope with the long GOP of the EX1 and if I have to upgrade my computer that has to be factored in. So do I go with the
EX1
Higher resolution, good low light, good LCD display, good record time on 2 8gb cards.

HVX200
Proven track record, works well with G5 and AJA card, better codec

Cheers for any advice you can give me.
Steve
 
Why are you considering either of these cameras? If most of what you're doing is long-form recording, they only become sort of viable with numerous 32GB cards - and redundancy for live events can be problematic.

I use an HVX for similar things (mainly opera and similar events) - but never alone for critical live recordings. If you want to record dual-system (P2 and firewire) you don't get much time on the cards. And the transfers, large amounts of data to archive and back up, and lack of a tape archive can be nervewracking and occasionally problematic.

I love my HVX, when it's the appropriate tool, and even when it's a secondary camera for shoots where it's not the ideal tool... but I don't think it's quite ready as a long-form camera for critical live events. I'd say the same for the EX.... great for quality at the price point, imagery, etc... not so great for workflow in a long-form critical situation.
 
I dont really think one can shoot good event coverage with just 1 cam. The most economical package solution for LONG event videography IMHO* is the Canon XH-A1 paired with a Canon HV-20.
 
The EX is perfect for the recording of long live events. Don't know why anyone would dismiss it. Two 16g cards will give you close to one hour and 40 min. in the best quality 1080p setting. Obviously more in the HDV quality setting. You gotta change tapes in the canons after only half that time. I mean how long are these long events. I've shot docs and in a full day I've used maybe three to for tapes that would be 4 - 16gig cards and I'm good. No laptop to lug around to transfer full cards and no torturous logging when I get home.
 
If Sony pulls through with the firmware upgrade and offers a pre-approved list of Express cards, you'll going to be able to buy two 32GB really cheap.
 
mico said:
The EX is perfect for the recording of long live events. Don't know why anyone would dismiss it. Two 16g cards will give you close to one hour and 40 min. in the best quality 1080p setting. Obviously more in the HDV quality setting. You gotta change tapes in the canons after only half that time. I mean how long are these long events. I've shot docs and in a full day I've used maybe three to for tapes that would be 4 - 16gig cards and I'm good. No laptop to lug around to transfer full cards and no torturous logging when I get home.
Click to expand...


Well, 3 hours is common for opera, sometimes 2 shows a day. Especially if you're working alone (but even if you're not), there's often not enough time to transfer, verify, check footage between acts or shows. So, for me to rely on the HVX, I'd need at least six hours of shooting time at 100Mbps ('cause backup over firewire is essential). So, 12 32GB cards? Pricey! 2 days in a row of shooting (also common)? I have to spend the time transferring, verifying, archiving 400GB after the show. LONG day!

Sure, maybe this is extreme. But not completely uncommon... he did mention theatrical events!

Also, project management becomes harder if your post-production process takes any time. With tape, you can load your material onto the system when you're ready... keeping things clear for other projects in the meantime. When you have to keep 400GB of data around on hard drives, etc, until you're ready to edit and finish, you end up spending a LOT on hard drives. And when one dies... it's a big problem.

Again, take this with a grain of salt - I do this. Even as a second camera, the same issues come up with the HVX, and I seem to be doing OK. But it is a REAL PAIN and often I wish I had gone with a tape-based HD approach. Except that Long-GOP sucks, especially under theatrical lighting conditions. Oh well.
 
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ullanta said:
Well, 3 hours is common for opera, sometimes 2 shows a day. Especially if you're working alone (but even if you're not), there's often not enough time to transfer, verify, check footage between acts or shows. So, for me to rely on the HVX, I'd need at least six hours of shooting time at 100Mbps ('cause backup over firewire is essential). So, 12 32GB cards? Pricey! 2 days in a row of shooting (also common)? I have to spend the time transferring, verifying, archiving 400GB after the show. LONG day!

Sure, maybe this is extreme. But not completely uncommon... he did mention theatrical events!

Also, project management becomes harder if your post-production process takes any time. With tape, you can load your material onto the system when you're ready... keeping things clear for other projects in the meantime. When you have to keep 400GB of data around on hard drives, etc, until you're ready to edit and finish, you end up spending a LOT on hard drives. And when one dies... it's a big problem.

Again, take this with a grain of salt - I do this. Even as a second camera, the same issues come up with the HVX, and I seem to be doing OK. But it is a REAL PAIN and often I wish I had gone with a tape-based HD approach. Except that Long-GOP sucks, especially under theatrical lighting conditions. Oh well.
Click to expand...

Yeah but thats with the HVX, putting aside the 4:2:0 vs. 4:2:2 issue, the EX wouldn't give you the time constraint issues that the HVX does. And as far as verifying well at the end of the day you got 4 - 16 cards ( which is financially manageable ) just like having four tapes you'd have to verify. You do have to view tapes, right? But with flash cards you'd copy to two hard drives, take one hard drive open up the browser software and click each clip. You either have it or you don't whether it be tape or flash card. You hand over the hard drive, you go home. The thought of going to tape for anything long form makes me cringe.
 
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My problem is that tape problems tend to be local, while file-based problems tend to be catastrophic. So, even if a tape breaks, has a glitch, etc; it's largely usable and recoverable.

I guess the lower data rate of the EX does help... I wasn't thinking clearly about that. But there's no redundancy, is there? Can you record FW out and to the cards?

In general, I don't touch tape. I record direct to Final Cut Pro, and in general operate tapelessly for big events. But It's nice to have a tape in the camera just in case, and for backup. On one occasion, somone accidentally yanked the firewire cable from my hard drive during capture. Times like that, you're glad to have a redundant recording, too!
 
ullanta said:
My problem is that tape problems tend to be local, while file-based problems tend to be catastrophic. So, even if a tape breaks, has a glitch, etc; it's largely usable and recoverable.

I guess the lower data rate of the EX does help... I wasn't thinking clearly about that. But there's no redundancy, is there? Can you record FW out and to the cards?

In general, I don't touch tape. I record direct to Final Cut Pro, and in general operate tapelessly for big events. But It's nice to have a tape in the camera just in case, and for backup. On one occasion, somone accidentally yanked the firewire cable from my hard drive during capture. Times like that, you're glad to have a redundant recording, too!
Click to expand...

I think I read no firewire out while recording but don't quote me. That leaves two redundant possibilities: a usb on the go drive or the HD -SDI out
 
The EX1 offers HDV 1080I at 1440 X 1080 via the firewire while recording to local memory, but only in HDV, not XDCAM 35mb
 
Steve Holmes said:
... So do I go with the
EX1
Higher resolution, good low light, good LCD display, good record time on 2 8gb cards.

HVX200
Proven track record, works well with G5 and AJA card, better codec

Cheers for any advice you can give me.
Steve
Click to expand...

Flip a coin? I don't think there's any easy answer in the HVX vs. EX1 for general use question. For every benefit--there's a cost. The EX1 has a longer recording time per GB at the cost of it's MPEG2 long GOP codec and 4:2:0 color sampling. If you want to edit EX1 footage natively (and do anything more than simple edits), you're going to need a a very fast computer, but you can also transcode the footage to ProRes 422 (does your version of FCP include it?). The extra $1650 for the EX1 will buy you a 32 GB P2 card, so you'd have 16+32=48GB to the EX1's 16 GB included. One thing I wouldn't count on is being able to use cheap Expresscard memory in the EX1--love to see it happen, but it's wishful thinking at this point.

The HVX would be a lot easier to love with a better LCD and a nice peaking function, but you can't deny it produces a beautiful film-like image. I do like the way the EX1 looks with a 35mm adapter--it takes the Sony ENG-like edge off the footage, while retaining a beautiful crispness. I'm waiting to see how the vignetting thing gets resolved and I still haven't heard anything about EX1 audio quality. The lack of a limiter is somewhat irritating, but if the audio subsystem is otherwise of DVX/HVX quality, that would be ok.

Bottom line, I think both are geat cameras depending on what features are most important to you. The EX1 still has a few question marks hanging over it--mainly because it's new.
 
Barry_S said:
Flip a coin? I don't think there's any easy answer in the HVX vs. EX1 for general use question. For every benefit--there's a cost. The EX1 has a longer recording time per GB at the cost of it's MPEG2 long GOP codec and 4:2:0 color sampling. If you want to edit EX1 footage natively (and do anything more than simple edits), you're going to need a a very fast computer, but you can also transcode the footage to ProRes 422 (does your version of FCP include it?). The extra $1650 for the EX1 will buy you a 32 GB P2 card, so you'd have 16+32=48GB to the EX1's 16 GB included. One thing I wouldn't count on is being able to use cheap Expresscard memory in the EX1--love to see it happen, but it's wishful thinking at this point.

The HVX would be a lot easier to love with a better LCD and a nice peaking function, but you can't deny it produces a beautiful film-like image. I do like the way the EX1 looks with a 35mm adapter--it takes the Sony ENG-like edge off the footage, while retaining a beautiful crispness. I'm waiting to see how the vignetting thing gets resolved and I still haven't heard anything about EX1 audio quality. The lack of a limiter is somewhat irritating, but if the audio subsystem is otherwise of DVX/HVX quality, that would be ok.

Bottom line, I think both are geat cameras depending on what features are most important to you. The EX1 still has a few question marks hanging over it--mainly because it's new.
Click to expand...

I like this. This is a very fair assessment. To be fair to the HVX, it's 2 years older than the EX. Back then they didn't have the high resolution LCD screens that they have now and sensor technology has improved. Panasonic just really needs to hit back with a new camera and they need to upgrade all the operator interfaces like the lens, LCD and VF. I'm tired of all these low-grade interfaces on camera...Canon is guilty of this too. The EX1 is going in the right direction but it should have gotten the high-resolution VF of the other new Sony HDV camera, the HVR-Z7. That VF is the same resolution as the EX1's external LCD!
 
Barry_S said:
Flip a coin? I don't think there's any easy answer in the HVX vs. EX1 for general use question. For every benefit--there's a cost. The EX1 has a longer recording time per GB at the cost of it's MPEG2 long GOP codec and 4:2:0 color sampling. If you want to edit EX1 footage natively (and do anything more than simple edits), you're going to need a a very fast computer, but you can also transcode the footage to ProRes 422 (does your version of FCP include it?). The extra $1650 for the EX1 will buy you a 32 GB P2 card, so you'd have 16+32=48GB to the EX1's 16 GB included. One thing I wouldn't count on is being able to use cheap Expresscard memory in the EX1--love to see it happen, but it's wishful thinking at this point.

The HVX would be a lot easier to love with a better LCD and a nice peaking function, but you can't deny it produces a beautiful film-like image. I do like the way the EX1 looks with a 35mm adapter--it takes the Sony ENG-like edge off the footage, while retaining a beautiful crispness. I'm waiting to see how the vignetting thing gets resolved and I still haven't heard anything about EX1 audio quality. The lack of a limiter is somewhat irritating, but if the audio subsystem is otherwise of DVX/HVX quality, that would be ok.

Bottom line, I think both are geat cameras depending on what features are most important to you. The EX1 still has a few question marks hanging over it--mainly because it's new.
Click to expand...


Yeah but that extra $1650 you pay gives you 1/2" chips, better DOF characteristics, true 1920x1080 with 1000 lines of resolution compared to the HVX's 550. Usable focusable lcd, a true manual lens with iris ring, 50 minutes record time included in price at xdcam quality as opposed to 16 min. 1080p for the HVX, HD-SDI 4:2:2 out, and, still being debated, possible better low light and noise performance. How much is that worth?
Its like going in circles isn't it ?
 
mico said:
Yeah but that extra $1650 you pay gives you 1/2" chips, better DOF characteristics, true 1920x1080 with 1000 lines of resolution compared to the HVX's 550. Usable focusable lcd, a true manual lens with iris ring, 50 minutes record time included in price at xdcam quality as opposed to 16 min. 1080p for the HVX, HD-SDI 4:2:2 out, and, still being debated, possible better low light and noise performance. How much is that worth?
Its like going in circles isn't it ?
Click to expand...

Very big difference
 
I just realized HVX200 w/16gb card $5200

Sony xdcam ex w/ 2- 8gb cards $6500 (price several authorized sellers have it for)

Thats only a $1300 difference not $1650.

The question for me is wobble and 4:2:0
 
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I am well aware of the issue of recording long shows but I think this is achievable, and is only part of what I do. If I recorded to tape I have to spend hours capturing the footage which is a real pain when busy. Also as solid state cards come down in price recording longer shows will make this much easier.

I suppose my issues are.
Rolling shutter problems of the EX1 (under show lighting) and what spec computer you need to edit the long Gop from the EX1. I do have FCP 6 but transcoding to ProRes takes up the same amount of time as capturing tape.

Cheers
for all the advice
Steve
 
Yes, but the EX1 has 4:2:2 via SDI. For in house work, it will be awesome.
Cineform is working on a 4:2:2 portable drive HDMI drive for less than 2K.
Hopefully they accomodate additional power lines for interfaces such as the HDLINK SDI>HDMI (5V power needed) ($399).

Now the only issue left is rolling shutter. If you don't like that, then run the other way.
Owning the camera I've already determined it's not seen in normal useage.

For HVX200 owners, I would suggest holding on to your camera and wait to see how Panasonic responds to the EX1. If they offer good rez and low noise with 4:2:2, that would be awesome. At the same time, the next EX1 generation (EX2?) may offer 4:2:2 to a better codec.

Things are looking good for all of us.
 
GaryOldman said:
I'm not worried about the vignetting issue so much because I trust Sony will be fixing it with firmware soon.
Click to expand...

Is a lens issue fixable with firmware? I thought vignetting issues were more hardware based issues.

Then again, has this issue been confirmed for all units? Or just a faulty batch?

Either way, I'm no repairman, but I'd expect to have to send the camera into a sony maintenance center or somewhere of likeness.

and btw
Stevet said:
For HVX200 owners, I would suggest holding on to your camera and wait to see how Panasonic responds to the EX1. If they offer good rez and low noise with 4:2:2, that would be awesome.
Click to expand...

What? I don't think this will be coming in a firmware update either... please explain

Thanks!
 
=Prodigy= said:
What? I don't think this will be coming in a firmware update either... please explain

Thanks!
Click to expand...

You misunderstood the post.
My point was to hold onto your HVX200 and wait for Panny to respond with a NEW model that offers better rez and lower noise.

Or maybe wait for the next generation EX1.

What I'm hearing from HVX200 owners is the difference is not great enough for them to dump all they have into the HVX200 and work flow.


There have been a few, such as Philip Bloom, that have moved from the HVX200 to the EX1.
 
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