Advice on Shooting 24p

B

Bassman2003

Veteran
Hello,

I have been doing video for many years now but realized a while ago that I shoot everything in 60p. I shoot a lot of events or "live" things but have also done a fair amount of interview & corporate style jobs.

I have been experimenting with shooting 24p as I really like the suspended feel to the footage, but this is also a strange side effect as to how to approach shooting this way. It seems the slower framerate lends itself to a "out of time" style of shooting where the story is glued togther in post, not captured live. So my view of shooting in this framerate is sort of like shooting stills that last longer. Little bits of framing put back together.

So I might be way off base, that is why I wanted to ask those who are more used to this format for some advice on how to approach this framerate.

My main hangups are not being able to move the camera much at all due to judder and the seemingly pre-thought out workflow that might have to happen in a fast paced environment. I can see this style on a movie set but it is outside of this environment that is giving me pause.

Thanks for your help and I hope you can understand what I am getting at. I did not want this to be a technical thread as I am well versed as a techie.

Look forward to the responses!
 
Thanks, I do still photography as well so I am very comfortable with the approach but I still am a bit uncomfortable as to how often I can use this format. The main hangup is not moving the camera much but thinking I might be in a situation where I do need to move the camera. How do you think of camera movement outside of a cinema setting?
 
You should choose it if what's you want the motion to look like in your project. That's really the first and last question when deciding. It's not appropriate for every kind of project, so if you're looking for something which should be "live" or "real," it may not be your choice. But it really shines for cinematic work.

What other things did you have mind for it?

You can move the camera plenty; you just have to be slower and smoother with it. Or, fast enough that it doesn't matter.
 
Are you shooting for broadcast? I use 30p all the time for broadcast spots. I get the look and don’t have to worry about conforming to NTSC 29.97. Looks great.
 
I would like to add 24p in all areas like another tool in the toolbox outside of tripod event work. I have shot some 30p and it is great for web but since it is not a Blu-ray spec I find it does not always fit.

My friend is getting together a fishing show and he wants a cinematic feel to it. We have shot some episodes in 720p60. I told him that cinematic is more of a style of shooting rather than a certain framerate, We considered 24p.

What do you guys think of shooting in 720p60 but editing parts or all on a 24p timeline? Do you have an asthetic issue with the 1/60th shutter if 720p60 is used or the look of this approach?

This would give some flexibility to show parts in a slower or faster framerate. 1080p resolution is not a big issue.

Thanks
 
All of my work for broadcast is 1080/60i, all my clients ask for it. When I'm shooing a personal project, I'm at 1080/30P 90% of the time, the other 10% are anywhere from 1 to 29 FPS for whatever reason. Stuff I shoot for the web, either for clients or myself is 720/60P.
 
Erik Naso said:
Are you shooting for broadcast? I use 30p all the time for broadcast spots. I get the look and don’t have to worry about conforming to NTSC 29.97. Looks great.
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I'm starting to do the same. Shot my first commercial 24P and the fiddling with the pull down to get the best conversion isn't worth the trouble. I'm just going to shoot it 30P from now on.
 
If you mean that it's the broadcast standard, then yes, all broadcast is 60i; there's no 24 fps broadcast. But TV has been shot at 24 fps and shown on TV for many decades. It's just a simple 2:3 pulldown in the telecine.
 
David Jimerson said:
If you mean that it's the broadcast standard, then yes, all broadcast is 60i; there's no 24 fps broadcast. But TV has been shot at 24 fps and shown on TV for many decades. It's just a simple 2:3 pulldown in the telecine.
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That's what we're saying. Rather than spend the extra time and effort on a commercial (local cable) to try and tweak the settings to get the best result out of converting the 24P to 60i (especially with any fast motion in it) it's easier to just shoot 29.97 to begin with.
 
David Jimerson said:
There's no trouble with 24p for broadcast. Pretty much every dramatic TV show is 24 fps.
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That's true. House M.D., 24 and many other shows that are shot on film are 24fps. Even some other shows shot digitally are shot at 24fps.
David Jimerson said:
If you mean that it's the broadcast standard, then yes, all broadcast is 60i; there's no 24 fps broadcast. But TV has been shot at 24 fps and shown on TV for many decades. It's just a simple 2:3 pulldown in the telecine.
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There's not much TV shows that are shot 29.976fps (p/i). As 23.976fps is part of the NTSC standard, they simply convert (with pulldown) it for compliancy.
gonzo_entertainment said:
Rather than spend the extra time and effort on a commercial (local cable) to try and tweak the settings to get the best result out of converting the 24P to 60i (especially with any fast motion in it) it's easier to just shoot 29.97 to begin with.
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For sure, but on the other hand, when they produce the DVD/BD of the show, both formats will already be compatible but it's always nice to have progressive HD video rather than interlaced. That's how I see it though.
 
I wouldn't shoot narrative that way. Only talking about saving effort on a commercial meant for local cable where every minute saved in the workflow is money in your pocket.
 
gonzo_entertainment said:
I wouldn't shoot narrative that way. Only talking about saving effort on a commercial meant for local cable where every minute saved in the workflow is money in your pocket.
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I agree. I mostly shot pretty much everything 24p (short films) and other than this 30p is great. I like the 60p on the T2i, a little soap opera look but to capture motion it's hard to beat.
But as I'm editing with Sony Vegas, there's an option to export directly with pulldown so there's not much difference in the workflow. You would render the video twice in the worst case: one 24p and the other 24p + pulldown.
 
gonzo_entertainment said:
That's what we're saying. Rather than spend the extra time and effort on a commercial (local cable) to try and tweak the settings to get the best result out of converting the 24P to 60i (especially with any fast motion in it) it's easier to just shoot 29.97 to begin with.
Click to expand...

There's no extra time or effort, really; you just export/render to the broadcast standard. So, say it's standard-def -- you just export to NTSC. Pretty much all the software out there will take care of it for you.

Motion won't be an issue, unless it already is when you're editing as 24p. The motion will end up the same -- inserting pulldown won't change it. Again, almost all (scripted, non-sitcom) TV is shot at 24 fps and shown in the 60i broadcast standard, as is every movie shown on TV. The stuff you shoot yourself at 24p is no different. If it looks good in 24p, it'll be fine when you insert pulldown for 60i.

Now, if you try to convert 24p to 30p, you'll have problems. Don't do that. 60i is what you'd want.

And if it IS "easier" to shoot at 30p or 60i, it doesn't necessarily make those frame rates appropriate for the project. Shoot the frame rate which gives you the pictures you want. All three can be broadcast with no problem.
 
The one time I tried to do it I had a hell of time. Letting the NLE automatically do it produced some choppy bits. I had to go massage the settings to get a pull down that looked smooth. Now this being said I am NOT an editor or post guy. I only do it on something where paying my editor would eat all the profit out of the gig. So we may be able to write this off to my incompetence.
 
Bassman- just remember as far as moving the camera and judder, if you pan following something moving throught the frame (ie a person or car), the sense of judder is reduced because your eye if focused on the object, which is not moving too quickly relative to the movement of the camera.
There's other workarounds/adaptations to shooting with camera movement in 24p, too.
 
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