ALL: AC160 or AC130 - Which will you choose and why?

FYI - Correcting myself here, I noticed that the AC160 user manual explains I can only have up to 12 hours of non-stop recording, even using the relay recording function with multiple cards. So my earlier post is incorrect and I'll be editing it.

The only exception to this rule is the interval recording function (max shoot time for interval is 168 hours - or one week - but obviously it's not recording the full 24/30/60 fps that whole time).


scapsinger said:
Somewhat off-topic (here I go derailing my own thread), but I gotta say that it's going to be less and less useful to shoot in anything except PH mode with the increasing size of the SD cards and the fact that you can relay between two cards on here. With a 64GB card, you can get something like 6 hours of the highest quality on this camera, and with 2 64GB cards, you get 12 hours. After the 2nd card starts recording, you just replace the first one and now you're at 18 hours of continuous recording, and so on and so on. Even if you're just using 16GB cards, it's going to be 3 hours continuous between two cards, adding 1.5 hours every time you swap in a new card.

If you're doing a live video stream through the FireWire port (or if you know you don't need HD video), then DV mode is nice, but for everything else, it's just becoming unnecessary in many cases to try to save the space on the lower quality settings.
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Has anyone else been looking into the new Samurai recorder/monitor by Atomos? That product looks so very intriguing. I'm wondering if it might not be smart to get the 160 with SDI out, if better and more affordable external recorders continue to be introduced in the future?

http://atomos.com/samurai/


On second though, the SD130 does have HDMI out. So the even more affordable Atomos Ninja could be used with it. The only disadvantage that HDMI seems to have is that you cannot get output in 1080/24Psf format, but you can output 1080/60i.

So these Atomos products could upgrade either of these new camcorders to be able to record in very high bit rates.

Doesn't SDI have technical advantages over HDMI, however?

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The more that I look at these Atomos products, the more intrigued I am becoming. The HDMI Atomos Ninja only costs $995. Add that to the AC130, and you are only barely over the price of the AC160. Yet, you will now be upgraded to be able to record uncompressed audio, and in a much higher quality high bit rate video format. Better even than the format used by the more expensive Panasonic AG-HPX250 P2 camcorder.Except now instead of recording to that awfully expensive P2 media ( $620 here in the USA for a 64 GB card ), I could instead record to standard SSD flash drives or 2.5 inch hard drives. One can buy a 120 GB SSD drive for only $155, and a 256 GB SSD for only $365. And 2.5 inch hard drives are even cheaper. You can get a 750 GB 2.5 inch hard drive for only $150

Can anyone see a downside to going this route? One should be able to use one of the screw holes on the AC130's handle to easily mount the Atomos Ninja to the camcorder. So for $4,800 here in the USA, one could have a camcorder with almost all the features of the $5,300 HPX250 P2 camcorder. Plus you could record in even higher quality formats, get a lovely 5" monitor, and use media that is far, far more affordable. It even comes with a Mac and PC friendly docking station that supports Firewire, and USB 2.0/3.0

Anyone else agree that a AC130 upgraded with the Atomos Ninja would offer advantages over the AG-HPX250 P2 camcorder??

It sure seems to me that such a combo would offer the best of both worlds.

Or am I overlooking something??

This video I found that was shot using the Atomos Ninja on a AG-AF100 sure looks impressive to me:

http://vimeo.com/27491835

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You could certainly use a Ninja with the AC160 to get a higher-quality recording format than the onboard recorder. That won't make it the same as an HPX250 however.

HDMI vs. HD-SDI, there are four main differences: HDMI doesn't support timecode at all - HD-SDI does; HDMI doesn't support 24PsF - HD-SDI does; the HDMI connector is a flimsy piece of consumer crapola - HD-SDI is industrial-grade professional; and HDMI doesn't support record start/stop flags - HD-SDI does.

So in practical terms, what does it mean? Well, you could get locking HDMI cables to overcome some of the flimsiness of the horrid HDMI connector.

As for timecode, well, if you never use timecode in your editing then maybe that's not a big issue. If you do multi-camera stuff and need matching timecode, that might be a bigger problem. Your shooting style and the way you work will dictate whether that's an issue or a non-issue.

24PsF, that's a bigger issue. On the native recording on the AC130/AC160 and HPX250, 24P is recorded *as* 24p. Native recordings, no pulldown. On the Ninja, it's recorded as 60i, with 2:3 pulldown. So for every clip you ever shoot, you're going to have to strip out pulldown out of the footage. Depending on what editor you use, that could either be a trivial task, or a pain in the butt.

Record start-stop flags: to some of us that's a biggie, to others it's a non-issue. If you have an SDI recorder, it can take advantage of the start-stop flags in the timecode stream, and start the Samurai recording at the same time as you press the record button on the camera. But with an HDMI recorder that doesn't happen. You'd have to consciously always remember to start the external recorder and stop the external recorder. A big deal? Not really. A disaster if you forget? Certainly. It's another point of failure.

I know which way I'd go -- if I needed a high-bandwidth intraframe 4:2:2 recording system, I'd get the HPX250 and not even fool around with an external recorder. It's another device, another point of failure, another battery system to keep track of, another cable to cable things to, it makes the unit bigger and bulkier... versus the elegance of just sliding in a proven P2 card and recording AVC-Intra. May cost a little more, but it's less hassle and just (IMO) a better solution.

But it'll cost more than a 130 would. Note that even if you went with a 130/Ninja combo, it wouldn't have the variable frame rate capability of the HPX250, nor would it have the 10-bit recording of the HPX250, so there are just some bridges you can't cross with this scenario.

Thing is, if a 130 does all you need, then why not just get the 130 and try it? You may be very surprised with just how good the onboard codec looks. I know that when the AF100 was first coming out, all the talk was "which external recorder will I need?" because people didn't know or necessarily trust AVCCAM. But within a couple of months, most of that talk just disappeared. People posted some side by side tests that showed the native codec holding up very very well against external recorders. I said at the time that I thought 95% of the people talking about external recorders would eventually figure out that they didn't need it, and I stand by that. Even though I'm a Nano user, I only use it for certain things -- like greenscreening. For the most part, the onboard codec does just fine; those who really need an external recorder would be more like the folks shooting for the BBC (where the BBC requires an external recorder on cameras that record 4:2:0).

Anyway -- yes you could get better recording out of a Ninja on an AC130 than you would get on the AC130 alone. No, it wouldn't offer any advantages over an HPX250.
 
Wow Barry, what an awesome reply, I have to agree. You covered everything so thoroughly. I obviously overlooked issues.

I've looked at some additional videos on Vimeo, where the AF100 native codec is compared to using it with the Ninja. And to be honest, many folks are saying that they can see no significant difference. And I have to agree with them, after comparing the two. Also, the Apple ProRes seems to have a fair amount of noise in it in some of these sample videos I've looked at.

The other factor is the huge amount of disk storage that these high bit rates codecs are using. Perhaps I should just forget about using any of these other codecs, and just stick with AVCCAM. It seems like it will be significant additional expense, have issues, and really not offer any noticeable benefit.
 
Barry_Green said:
Wow, that's flattering! Certainly not deserved, but flattering! :)

Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups. He pushes the world down.
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Nah it's really well deserved! You really know what you are talking about. Often I double check everything that I read here if it is really important to me. But when you say it, I always know that it is the best and most correct answer I can get.

Did you know that a group of scientists decided to put some of Chuck Norris pee in a can? They sell it today as a drink called Red Bull...
 
Hi Guys! Ive just joined the forum, after a year or two of aquiring info from it! :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG) I'm a freelancer based in Ireland mainly working in events, short films (DSLR) and underwater shooting.... and, I am as many are, just about to make the leap to a new HD Camcorder (although already using HDSLRS - and their limitations), So, I have a chance of getting an AC-160 for only £110-00 ($190 US) price difference over the AC130, So, even though Im 99% there, I just wanted to humbly ask you guys, go for it? thanks in advance and I look forward to contributing to the forum where I can in the future....hopefully as the new owner of an AC130 or 160! thanks! Joe
 
Unquestionably get the 160 over the 130, if the price difference is that minimal! The 160 does everything the 130 does, but it adds four things: uncompressed audio recording, HD-SDI output, 50/60Hz switchability, and variable frame rates. Any one of those would be worth $190...
 
Well, the price difference here in the USA is $900. Barry convinced me that the native AVCCAM codec is good enough for my needs, so I've decided to not try to mess with using SDI and an external recorder.

I took the plunge and ordered the AG-AC130 today from B&H Photo. They told me that they received a large shipment of the AC130's yesterday, so it is now in stock.

My camcorder is shipping today UPS Blue Label, so I should have it this Friday.

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Hi Guys, Thanks for the confirmation, just ordered the 160, With the saving Ive made - its gonna be a new Imac too! you guys get it all cheaper in the US though ;-0
 
Just shot with the AC130 outside, today. I have not looked at my footage yet, but one interesting problem-- The LCD screen gave a rainbow style reflection with blinding bounce-back reflection of the sun when the light hits it just right making the screen unviewable. (Shooting with the sun to my back.) My Hoodman was not helpful in blocking out the light. I needed to get my face up to the screen.
Below is still images taken by my cellphone-- sorry not the best images.
lcd1.jpglcd2.jpg
My question: Is there some type of anti-reflection clear sheet I could put on LCD screen to eliminate this problem. MY DVC30 doesn't have this problem.
Is this a known thing with the other types of cameras???????
 
have anyone noticed difference with body material in AC130 vs AC160 ??

I tested AC130 and AC160 - so AC160 body is like 250 model, the 130 have more "plastic look" body - or maybe only my "test pieces" had differences ?? look at silver ring on body in AC130 and AC160 - one is shiny (160) the 130 is matte - body also had diferences...

please check it if you have possibility...
 
Didn't notice a difference myself. Honestly, so thrown off by the addition of weight in general (over the HMC150) that I didn't try comparing one to the other. I was operating under the assumption that they were quite literally the same camera with the exclusion of a couple of different internal features.

I would be surprised if they were different materials like you're discussing, wouldn't make a lot of sense for me if I were a manufacturer like Panasonic trying to sell two very similar cameras like this. They share the same brochure and all that, and it would only seem to add unnecessary cost overall. It DOES make sense between the 160/130 and the 250, since they are somewhat different classes of camera. You'd expect the robustness of the P2 media to be accompanied by a more robust hosing than you might find in a camera that records SDHC/SDXC media.

Guess we'll see if anyone else notices any difference....but if you were previewing test models, then I could see where the AC160 might have already had the "finalized" chassis since it came to market over a month before the AC130. The AC130 "guts" were probably not placed in a finalized chassis until the last weeks of testing.

When did you happen to do your reviewing?
 
I saw AC130 and AC160 on polish panasonic new models presentation... so there i saw and tested 130/160/250 - 160 and 250 had the same body (shiny ring on body, and different body material) - ac130 had a matte ring and "more plastic" body - i guess i saw the first relase of AC160.

Now i watched the HD warior review of AC160 - and his model looks like AC130 as i saw... but he also put in his video interview with someone at show, and there in background is a 250 or 160 (i don't know) - you can see difference in movie (his AC160 and camera in behind interviewed woman) - look at ring on body

here is link to video http://www.hdwarrior.co.uk/2011/10/19/panasonic-ag-ac160-video-review/

So i think i saw the first relase (demo for dealers) of AC160 with the same type of body that 250model have, now the body of 160 can be the same as 130) - that's not important for me, but i noticed the differences and asked about it ;)
Of course i asked the dealer about difference of 160/130 body, he explain that his 160model is first model that he recieved from company (earlier than rest), then comes the 250 and 130 as last. He also was suprised of differences in bodies.

I understand that differences in 250 and 130/160 should be visible - becouse of different level of camera (P2 vs AVC)



Does anybody hear about coming firmware upgrade for ac160 - for 1080 50P recording with 28Mbit (AVCHD compatible) ??? - i heard this news from our panasonic dealer
 
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Hello - new to the forum - not sure if I'm in the right spot for this question.

After many happy and profitable years as a DVX user, I just this week unboxed the AC 130. Wonderful camera but oversized for my handheld style - returned it today. I can wing it for a while with the DVXs - and the GH2 where necessary - but need an HD camcorder with xlr inputs for daily bread. Do you recommend that I buy the HMC150? At 3k for 2 year old technology, seems counter intuitive but haven't seen anything I like better in that bang-for-the-buck range. I have a new Macbook pro w/fcp X - will the HMC 150 files work as well as the AC130 type?

Thanks!
 
The HMC150 is a noticeably lighter camcorder...in fact, it's lighter than the DVX mainly due to the lack of a tape mechanism. The AC130 is better in so many ways, but it is heavier. I could suggest something like the Halo Rig as a possible solution to your handheld style, but I'm just making assumptions about your situation.

The HMC150 does have CCDs (as opposed to the CMOS sensors on the AC130) and that could be considered an advantage in some ways. CCDs are not as "sharp" as CMOS but CCDs are also not subject to flash banding and jello/skew issues.

If you decide you want an HMC150, I am selling some in the marketplace right now. There are others selling, too. Good bit below the price for a new one, really not much difference though. Since these are solid state cameras and no moving parts, it's not like the old days where the number of hours on the tape heads meant everything on the life of a camera.

Good luck whatever you end up doing!
 
If you really want something lighter, I'd say also check out the Cnon XA10 and XF100 to see if they suit your needs... but the HMC150 is a great cam... I'm selling one, too! The special "Handholder's Edition"....
 
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