F35/F65 About to buy, next Monday, 1 or 2 Sony F65 Cinealta packages .. and just my few words

[AlejandroMartin]

Hi to all,
So far, after about 15 years of being registrered, without any message, I think now its the time to open this thread.
Last messages about the F65 here and there were from <2024.

First of all, sincerely, let me say that this was my dream camera back in the early days of Cinemartin, I just had a FS100 or FS700 back in 2011-2012 I cannot rememebr, but for many years, I dreamed with, first the Cinealta F35 and then the F-65.

Why I will make the purchase (in about 48 hours) (except someone really let me understad that this is not a coorect decission) ?


1) Sony F65 delivers RAW at 8K 16Bit RAW 4:4:4, and while the raw is 8.nn K * 2.nn K,

• It can be true 8K DCI by just using and rotating some PL Anamorphic 2X so 8 x 2 will be 8 x 4.

2) The weight is nothing when you film in a controlled environmed, so for film feature, commercials and promos I think it is one of the best.

• I will not use it as run and gun or documentaries.
• It can be used even on pro gymbals

3) The D.R. (still need to bench) is close to 14 stps at SNR 1, in a "global shutter" camera which no one was able to mid-orders produce.

4) The workflow this days are not difficult at all. As the SR-D1 reader with eSATA interface is about 0.5 GB per second so:

• 1 GB = 2 seconds, then 500 GB = 1.000 seconds, so in less than 20 minutes you transfer 500 GB to a Macbook (esata to usb-c 3.0 / TB 3+)
• 1 SRMemory card of 512 GB I bet will allow for about 20 minutes of 8K RAW, so we are talking about realtime 8K speed for transfers.

5) I'm not sure if will come with true rotary shutter, as gthere no good info about F65 vs F65RS and on the beggining (I think) it was suggested that the std at 65K comes with same chassis but with electronic shutter where as the F65 priced at 77K include it.

Of course I cannot recall that info, if some one can clarify point 5.
Some sources said on 2011 that the camera will be prices at between 200K and 300K, and gthen finally on next year was priced at 65K the base.

6) having a cable-remote control pad with ptofesional buttons, display etc.. along with a great viewfinder, a dockable RAW recorder (SR-R4) with 3 levels of compression, being the top aty a 3:1 ratio its incredible.

Which aternatives are today on the market, which can provide similar color rendition, skin / faces, pixel resolution, etc.. that costs say 10K ?


What your thoughs are ? if still someone is interested in read some discussion and or watch some tests I may do.

 

[rob norton]

2) The weight is nothing when you film in a controlled environmed, so for film feature, commercials and promos I think it is one of the best.

• I will not use it as run and gun or documentaries.
• It can be used even on pro gymbals

I used to want an F35 too!

I think size and weight are the biggest reasons older yet capable cameras like this/OG alexa aren't more widely used. If it's so big that you're in a different category of supporting equipment than an alternative camera package, then it's potentially a mistake. E.g. 150mm fluid head vs. 100mm, bigger jib vs smaller jib, raise combo stands on a dana dolly with camera package still on rails vs removing each time. Even if you're committed to just tripod, is it 2-3 people to help with height adjustments vs. it being an option by yourself with something lighter.

Unless it's providing an amazing on set experience for those involved, I just don't think many people will appreciate you "fighting the good fight" in the name of IQ.

In terms of alternatives, other than the Venice series, or more underground cameras, the only mainstream options that tick the eye candy box come from blackmagic. I'd use a pyxis 12k over an f65.

 

[Paul F]

I don't know dick about cameras. What I do know is that people can get enamored with a particular item and make a decision to buy based on a passion for the item rather than an unemotional and objective evaluation. Your long list of justifications and this statement* hints that maybe you are in this category. Hey, if it makes you happy, who cares what others think. But if you think you may have a love-fest for the F65 and are trying to justify it (as it seems you are doing here), may I suggest you step back for a moment and try to detach yourself from the decision for a and re-evaluate in an un-empasioned way what the other options are. If you are still satisfied with your decision, go for it.

*"sincerely, let me say that this was my dream camera back in the early days of Cinemartin"

 

[AlejandroMartin]

Rob, to me Blackmagic is not a cinema proof camera.
Venice 1 res = 6K If my memory does not fail, and the Venice 2 is more than 50K as of today, for a litle bit better than F65 (weight/and about 0.5-1 more DR).

Paul, I just ask for alternatives on my last sentences.

I will ser it on person on Monday, I will travel about 600 kms to see and I need to be sure to buy it ot not

 

[DustinSchmidt]

There's something about old, previously VERY EXPENSIVE, cinema cameras that generate a lot of nostalgia.

I think usually it has to do with seeing what really talented DP's and film crews previously did with those camera systems. If they could do it, why can't I?

But I think the reality is that some, not all, of those older systems are a bit outdated for the modern filmmaker.

I've certainly never shot on a Sony F65, so my opinion may not amount to much. But it looks to be a heavier, more labor intensive camera than some of the modern alternatives that hit some of the specs you might be looking for.

The RED V-Raptor X or RED Komodo-X would be some modern alternatives with global shutters that come to mind, with the latter being under $10K.

There does appear to be some great, hands-on reviews on YouTube of using the F65. It may be worth checking a lot of those out if you haven't already.

 

[rob norton]

Rob, to me Blackmagic is not a cinema proof camera.
Venice 1 res = 6K If my memory does not fail, and the Venice 2 is more than 50K as of today, for a litle bit better than F65 (weight/and about 0.5-1 more DR).

Paul, I just ask for alternatives on my last sentences.

I will ser it on person on Monday, I will travel about 600 kms to see and I need to be sure to buy it ot not

Everyone will draw their own lines for determining what a cinema proof camera is. Is BM not a cinema proof camera because of reliability? This is valid!

I just don't see the F65 giving you a leg up the same way independent legends like Macgregor/Tim Hyten (slimothy) used the F35:

I assume the package would need a pretty capable steadicam operator and package. I'm completely generalising, but if I were shooting a feature and had to choose between f65/gimbal or smaller camera with options for steadicam as well as gimbal, I'd go for the smaller/lighter camera. It just seems like you're coughing up certain ways to move the camera just to use it.

If you have the money and want to enjoy shooting on the f65 then you should definitely go for it! The F65 image is fantastic and I imagine it'd still be a lot of fun to shoot with for certain projects. As a specific tool to add to the kit, then I completely understand. But as a professional all rounder, at this point, I don't think it's much of a video production secret weapon and not too many people will appreciate it. With the F35 at the time, there was a real element of coming out the other side (working for components, rigging, odyssey etc) with an extreme value proposition, but it doesn't feel like the same thing here.

 

[CharlesPapert]

I'd be curious what the servicing options are on an F65 at this point. Probably worth looking into what it would take to get Sony or anyone else to work on it, and how many spare boards and parts are still out there. I don't think they made too many of those bodies.

 

[Paul F]

I was reading up on the F65. It has a mechanical shutter.... That would make it a hard pass for me. Mechanical things that rotate are a low reliability item.

The fact that there are hardly any for sale on the used market is not encouraging in regards to Charles' point. Low body count usually implies weak repair support.

 

[rob norton]

It's an interesting question - how do the internal components of a 15 year old camera, designed to be a workhorse, compare to today's options with seemingly shorter shelf lives.

It's almost like it could have a niche life as a functioning prop for films where you get a distinct looking camera but can also access the actual footage to cut to what the camera was "shooting". But even then, IDK how many people place much value on the package used in this way.

https://www.reddit.com/r/cinematography/comments/1b399p7/vittorio_storaro_and_the_sony_f65

- there are a few reliability anecdotes here.

Reading some of the comments, it's funny how there were so many parts to keep learn about as issues arose, or to learn of just as part of being a professional. For example, in the reddit thread, there's mention of an environmental seal. For today's cameras it's like the body is broken, send it in. A lot like cars, there's no chance for self servicing out in the field vs. I'm sure plenty of ENG and film camera crews in decades gone by have taken care of repairs themselves in the middle of nowhere.

 

[AlejandroMartin]

Hi, I did some test with the camera.
Image so good, and yes, it records, with normal lenseS (no need to flip 90· and 2X anamorphic), at dci 8k (8x4) at 120 fps.
I just paid a reserve, it will be with me I hope for this weekand.

I can only say that with sony raw viewer, (the raw editor) was so incredible, I was able to change almost everything, to reach levels, that I do not to remember in any other camera, and that from an objetive point, discarding my preference from my old dreams, take in mind

 

[AlejandroMartin]

the mechanical NDs had a troble on F64 cam 1 (there are 2), but then after reset it was done, problem (verary rare was that when set to clean, it was clear (so black) only on cam 1, but after reset , then clean was clean (no filter) and clear was black, and 0.9, 1.2, 1.5 and (1.8 or 1.9 i dont remember) were working ok as expected. And from a cam that have around 12-14 years old


Again, I hiope to get in for this weekand, altought until 15 days I doubt to be able to make any tests

 

[AlejandroMartin]

And a simple, not pro, comparison

	SONY F65		VENICE 2
MAX RES	DCI 8K (8 x 4)		8K x 6K ( W x H)	WINS VENICE
MAX FPS AT 8K	120P		60P	WINS F65
SENSOR SIZE	35MM		FF	WINS VENICE
SHUTTER	MECHANICAL		ELECTRONIC	WINS F65

 

[AlejandroMartin]

____

WEIGHT	ABOUT 10KG LOADED	NOT SURE, MIGHT BE 6-7	WIND VENICE 2
SPEED ON TRASNFER	REALTIME ESATA	NOT TESTED
PRICE	STARTS AT 10K SECOND HAND,
PRICE FUNCTIONAL	ADD CARDs ADD SPECIAL READER (SR-D1 OR PC4) 12-14K USD	NOT NEED FOR READER 60-70K USD	WINS F65

___

 

[rob norton]

Nice one Alejandro! It just means you well and truly are happy to buy despite the concerns raised in this thread.

I'm surprised about the "10kg loaded", I thought a full shooting set up would weigh a lot more. Make sure to share some tests, or better yet, some final projects!

 

[CharlesPapert]

I'm sure plenty of ENG and film camera crews in decades gone by have taken care of repairs themselves in the middle of nowhere.

I can't remember "fixing" a video camera, but I did go into the chassis on some film cameras over the years. After all, they were basically sewing machines with a few more buttons on them. The Arri SR 1 and 2 were a bit notorious in that they only had a single 3/8-16 tie-down on the base, which made attaching a Steadicam plate a little dodgy in that there wasn't a good way to keep it from spinning--solution was to double up some camera tape between the plate and the body, and use a big fattie screwdriver to crank it down but good. Unfortunately, the bottom of that tapped hole was thin metal and directly above it was the motherboard for the camera. Use too long a 3/8-16 bolt and a bit of over-leverage with the screwdriver, and it blasted through the base and cracked the board. Happened to me once on distant location in the mid 90's. I opened up the camera, saw how the crack in the board had severed a solder trace, pulled out my soldering kit (all Steadicam ops in those days carried them!) and bridged the gap with some more solder, and we were back up and running.

 

[rob norton]

Great story, you must've gone through a range of emotions pretty quickly. I guess the equivalent these days is just multiple camera bodies.

Maybe a 3D printer will come in handy one day for Alejandro.

 

[cyvideo]

If anyone wants to see how the now legendary F65 stacks up today, you could do worse than check out the late Geoff Boyle's ISO camera tests from 2017.

Geoff Boyle
https://britishcinematographer.co.uk/remembering-geoff-boyle-nsc-fbks-1950-2021/

A range of way under through to way over exposed .EXR files are available from each camera. These you can chuck on a timeline in Resolve and see how well they behave when you try to recover the image.

ARRI Alexa SXT
BMD Ursa Mini-Pro
Canon C200
Canon C300-2 raw
Canon C700 raw 4K
Panasonic Varicam Pure
Panasonic Varicam LT/Odyssey
RED Helium
Sony F55
Sony F65
Sony Venice

https://www.cinematography.net/UHD-Digital-Cinema-Camera-Evaluations-2017.html

The F65 Vimeo file is linked below. All the cameras in the above tests have their corresponding videos on Vimeo and their .EXR files at cinematography.net. As you will see listed under the F65 video.

https://vimeo.com/226152979?fl=pl&fe=vl

Personally, I preferred the overall cadence and look of the F35, Sherlock, The Kennedys, The Good Wife... but what do I know. But then Claudio Miranda made the F55 sing in "The Crown" before he made the move to the Venice.

Chris Young

I did like the look and treatment the F65 received in Tomorrowland:

and Oblivion:

 

[Hansil]

Hi to all,
So far, after about 15 years of being registrered, without any message, I think now its the time to open this thread.
Last messages about the F65 here and there were from <2024.

First of all, sincerely, let me say that this was my dream camera back in the early days of Cinemartin, I just had a FS100 or FS700 back in 2011-2012 I cannot rememebr, but for many years, I dreamed with, first the Cinealta F35 and then the F-65.

Why I will make the purchase (in about 48 hours) (except someone really let me understad that this is not a coorect decission) ?


1) Sony F65 delivers RAW at 8K 16Bit RAW 4:4:4, and while the raw is 8.nn K * 2.nn K,

• It can be true 8K DCI by just using and rotating some PL Anamorphic 2X so 8 x 2 will be 8 x 4.

2) The weight is nothing when you film in a controlled environmed, so for film feature, commercials and promos I think it is one of the best.

• I will not use it as run and gun or documentaries.
• It can be used even on pro gymbals

3) The D.R. (still need to bench) is close to 14 stps at SNR 1, in a "global shutter" camera which no one was able to mid-orders produce.

4) The workflow this days are not difficult at all. As the SR-D1 reader with eSATA interface is about 0.5 GB per second so:

• 1 GB = 2 seconds, then 500 GB = 1.000 seconds, so in less than 20 minutes you transfer 500 GB to a Macbook (esata to usb-c 3.0 / TB 3+)
• 1 SRMemory card of 512 GB I bet will allow for about 20 minutes of 8K RAW, so we are talking about realtime 8K speed for transfers.

5) I'm not sure if will come with true rotary shutter, as gthere no good info about F65 vs F65RS and on the beggining (I think) it was suggested that the std at 65K comes with same chassis but with electronic shutter where as the F65 priced at 77K include it.

Of course I cannot recall that info, if some one can clarify point 5.
Some sources said on 2011 that the camera will be prices at between 200K and 300K, and gthen finally on next year was priced at 65K the base.

6) having a cable-remote control pad with ptofesional buttons, display etc.. along with a great viewfinder, a dockable RAW recorder (SR-R4) with 3 levels of compression, being the top aty a 3:1 ratio its incredible.

Which aternatives are today on the market, which can provide similar color rendition, skin / faces, pixel resolution, etc.. that costs say 10K ?


What your thoughs are ? if still someone is interested in read some discussion and or watch some tests I may do.

For what it's worth, I bought an F55 for my students and have been very happy with the footage. It's a tank, it has proper controls on the side so you don't have to dig through a menu, and the image is really solid. It cost under $1000. If you love the look of the 65, go for it - older cinema cameras were built to survive years in a rental house environment.

 

[AlejandroMartin]

Hi, I finally purchased one of the two, also with an MB-20

Weight: see pics

Sony F65 Camera Body (without card)
+
Sony SR-D4 RAW Recorder
+
Shoulder Mount
+
BasePlate
+
Top Bars
=================================

8 KG





The Sony F65 ready to shoot (without lens) weights about 9 KG, including the SR-D4, Shoulder Mount, Base plate, Top hand + 15mm bars, and the Viewfinder.

Below 9 KG





Then add Matte Box, base bars, a Follow Focus, and say a Master Prime
it shoulbe be between 13 Kg and 14 KG (I will know in say 1-2 weels)

SO, a Full Pack Sony F65 Cinealta Ready to Shoot on outsides, depending on lens used, is aprox. between 12 and max. 15 KG.

Any thoughs on weigh ? yes it's not lighter, but not as too big and heavy as many people think

 

[rob norton]

Thanks for sharing, love that sony grey!