3D-Kraft.com
Member
It's as unfinished as the Shogun firmware ;-)
A professional cage is already on order but I will keep the sun hood.
A7s internal/Shogun UHD/FS7 UHD internal Comparo
- Thread starter olof
- Start date
It's as unfinished as the Shogun firmware ;-)
A professional cage is already on order but I will keep the sun hood.
3D-Kraft.com
Member
Today I made some tests outside in order to compare 4:2:0 vs. 4:2:2 and 8 bit vs. 10 bit (after downscaling the footage to HD). Regarding the results there will be an update later.
Regarding the sun hood and the mount:
It was sunny but quite windy (4 Bft). The sun hood was doing a good job but I must admit that the DYI mount was too wobbly in that situation.
Regarding the sun hood and the mount:
It was sunny but quite windy (4 Bft). The sun hood was doing a good job but I must admit that the DYI mount was too wobbly in that situation.
goodgoings
Well-known member
As long as everyone is talking about sun hoods for the Shogun, I'd like to ask how the Shogun compares to other monitors in bright conditions? It's rated at 400 nit so I'm guessing a sun hood would be a necessity like any other monitors. Or how useable is it without a sun hood?
3D-Kraft.com
Member
Coming back to the 4:2:2 8 to 10 Bit downscaling-conversion compared to internal A7S footage recorded in XAVC-S 8 Bit 4:2:0:
This little test compares footage that was recorded in 4K ProRes HQ 10 Bit 4:2:2 (coming from the Sony A7S in 8 Bit 4K 4:2:2) downsampled to 1080p with footage recorded internally in the Sony A7S with XAVC-S 8 Bit 4:2:0.
Picture Profile was set in both cases to Cine Gamma 4 and "Pro" gamut; in the upper parts only little grading was applied (see in the beginning the color checker test chart). ISO was 200.
The left side quarters show the downsampled 4K footage, the right side shows 1:1 crops from the internal 1080p footage. The quarters in the lower half got a strong stretching of the tonal values in order to get potential banding more visible.
The graded internal 8 bit 4:2:0 XAVC-S footage keeps up surprisingly good due to noise dithering the gradient and "hiding" banding.
The original file upload was encoded using a XDCAMHD 4:2:2 codec. When you download it, you can see the rendering in much better quality than the reencoded stream of Vimeo. The MXF file can be played with VLC.
This is a still photo taken out of the video stream (scaled to forum resolution but without inrerpolation):
This little test compares footage that was recorded in 4K ProRes HQ 10 Bit 4:2:2 (coming from the Sony A7S in 8 Bit 4K 4:2:2) downsampled to 1080p with footage recorded internally in the Sony A7S with XAVC-S 8 Bit 4:2:0.
Picture Profile was set in both cases to Cine Gamma 4 and "Pro" gamut; in the upper parts only little grading was applied (see in the beginning the color checker test chart). ISO was 200.
The left side quarters show the downsampled 4K footage, the right side shows 1:1 crops from the internal 1080p footage. The quarters in the lower half got a strong stretching of the tonal values in order to get potential banding more visible.
The graded internal 8 bit 4:2:0 XAVC-S footage keeps up surprisingly good due to noise dithering the gradient and "hiding" banding.
The original file upload was encoded using a XDCAMHD 4:2:2 codec. When you download it, you can see the rendering in much better quality than the reencoded stream of Vimeo. The MXF file can be played with VLC.
This is a still photo taken out of the video stream (scaled to forum resolution but without inrerpolation):
Sorry to ask this tiny question but I've googled so much to find this answer and have yet to find a certainty to this; has anyone tried to record 1080p at 50/60p with the A7s + Shogun yet? Wondering if it does really work and if it does, would it be make significat different than internal recording (since we know at 50/60p, internal recording quality drops by a couple of notches unless it's set to crop mode + speed booster).
Erik Naso
Veteran
I just finished up a continuous run time test. I got fair results but not the same as others. 53 minutes and some change.
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photochris
Well-known member
This is a still photo taken out of the video stream (scaled to forum resolution but without inrerpolation):
The internal results are pretty impressive compared to the 4k downscaled. Thanks for posting.
3D-Kraft.com
Member
Yes I was surprised and expected a more significant difference as well. Sony made a really good job with the internal XAVC-S codec and the internal downsampling to 1080p from the full sensor read out.
Regarding 1080p50/60: Yes, the Shogun supports it, but the Sony A7S does not use the full sensor read out any more at that frame rate, so the footage is not on the same quality level as with 24/25/30p.
Interesting is, that the Shogun also supports 1080p with up to 120 fps (and later also 2160p with up to 60 fps) but at the moment I know no affordable camera that can deliver this via HDMI / SDI.
Thanks for sharing your results. About 50 min was the maximum time that I could achieve with continous 2160p recording as well.
ATOMOS, if you read here: Please add a second (not a bigger) battery to the initial box content - and at least one HDMI cable (microHDMI to HDMI Type A) that fit's to the A7S which is probably your main customer group for some time. If you offer this to the early adopters that were surprised with an unfinished firmware and a battery runtime far away from "up to 3 hours" (as advertised) as a free indemnification, that would be nice as well...
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3D-Kraft.com
Member
I thought once more about what could have been the reason for the quite little difference here. I think it is the noise, which is strongest in the blue channel (even at base ISO and with the sensor of the A7S). The XAVC-S 50 Mbps encoder keeps the noise quite well without blurring and so you keep a significant amount of "noise dithering" through the whole workflow which helps to hide the banding.
As Stefan Czech used a light gray sky instead of a blue sky in his comparison video, in his case there was less "noise dithering" in the footage which helped to bring out the differences.
The noise is, what affects the YouTube reencoding much stronger than on Vimeo, if you compare the result in this example on YouTube.
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Am I reading correctly that Atomos will be changing the shipped battery to a larger one?
If that's true, what about the people who already bought it? I would strongly prefer a larger battery to the one that mine came with. Are they going to ship this out to early adopters for free? I honestly will just return mine and buy it again if I'm getting screwed just for buying early.
If that's true, what about the people who already bought it? I would strongly prefer a larger battery to the one that mine came with. Are they going to ship this out to early adopters for free? I honestly will just return mine and buy it again if I'm getting screwed just for buying early.
Alpha Beta Omega
Veteran
Atomos fuked up really. They stated a 11W maximum draw but in reality, if you get about 50 minutes of use, the real power consumption is more than twice the stated 11W. It's a joke Atomos always pride themselves having great power handling and the Shogun is just down the drain (!). I made the right decision returning mine since it's the worst product from them so far.
3D-Kraft.com
Member
OK, they started shipping a bit overhasty - but what are comparable alternatives? At the moment it is best for the buck compared to other solutions.
Erik Naso
Veteran
I have a Odyssey 7Q+ in for review and I purchased a Shogun so I have the unique opportunity to compare these two monitor/recorders side by side. It's extremely time consuming and I really want to give both a fair evaluation when it comes to comparing the two. Starting Wednesday I'm in full promo shooting mode at work so I'm trying to do as much as I can before.
The two recorders are very different but in the end do the same thing. Since the battery issue was raised I decided to test both. At first mainly the Shogun
Then tonight I took the supplied battery from Atomos and fully charged it and put it on the 7Q+ to see how long it would last. I was very surprised! In fact my dinner went cold waiting for it to die. Not cool :-D
With the Shogun I got 53 minutes and some change. With the same battery on the 7Q+ I got one hour and twenty three minutes. That's significantly better power management. Approximately 30 minutes more continuous run time.
Another interesting feature is the 7Q+ stopped recording when the voltage got to low. Then it shut down after about two minutes. No need to recover the clip because the recorder stopped. With the Shogun it powered down while recording and when I replaced the battery and powered up I had to use the Shogun's software to save the clip, and it did work, but I sure would be worried if this wasn't a test. Not cool that it just dies like that.
Lots more to come but all this is very interesting to me.
The two recorders are very different but in the end do the same thing. Since the battery issue was raised I decided to test both. At first mainly the Shogun
Then tonight I took the supplied battery from Atomos and fully charged it and put it on the 7Q+ to see how long it would last. I was very surprised! In fact my dinner went cold waiting for it to die. Not cool :-D
With the Shogun I got 53 minutes and some change. With the same battery on the 7Q+ I got one hour and twenty three minutes. That's significantly better power management. Approximately 30 minutes more continuous run time.
Another interesting feature is the 7Q+ stopped recording when the voltage got to low. Then it shut down after about two minutes. No need to recover the clip because the recorder stopped. With the Shogun it powered down while recording and when I replaced the battery and powered up I had to use the Shogun's software to save the clip, and it did work, but I sure would be worried if this wasn't a test. Not cool that it just dies like that.
Lots more to come but all this is very interesting to me.
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Alpha Beta Omega
Veteran
The 7Q is a pro recorder while the Shogun is much more a consumer one.
remsyatassi
Well-known member
I don't plan to buy a Shogun but $2000 for a monitor/recorder is not consumer to me. That should be a pro piece of gear.
The O7Q+ will no doubt cost a bit more after proprietary flash media though. At that point it's worth considering the FS7 really, unless you already own an A7s.
Yep, getting the FS7 with just a 7" Marshall or SmallHD display which takes up much less juice and is generally lighter than the Shogun or Odyssey is the configuration I will get next month. Messing with these DSLRs just drains your pocket and prevents you from rigging up the camera you really need.
Erik Naso
Veteran
I find myself using these recorders as monitors a lot more often. The Ninja Blade was really great and the Shogun and 7Q+ are even better. I just wrapped a three day shoot with C300 and the 7Q+ as a director/producer monitor. Also rolled a few shots with it too. I wish the C300 SDI out would trigger a recorder. I just put the 7Q+ on a lightstand with an Xtender adapter.
Looks like the director was happy using it today! :-D
It was overcast all day. Great shooting conditions and the screen looked great.
On sunny days not so much.
Looks like the director was happy using it today! :-D
It was overcast all day. Great shooting conditions and the screen looked great.
On sunny days not so much.
caseywilsondp
Well-known member
Uh what? You and doctor wu are confusing. You're at between 4-5k depending on how much you bought your a7s and shogun for (new) and just starting at 8k at the cheapest for the fs7 body. So you're possibly out twice as much money considering for both you need to buy lenses, batteries, media, support etc.
So yes for 3-4 thousand dollars more you can get a better camera, but with that logic why not spend twice that much and get a used epic body?