Sherlock256
Well-known member
The imagery is very very nice indeed. Nice job! Awesome cast and crew.
"A Verse Before Dying" - AF-100 Western Short
- Thread starter Stephen Mick
- Start date
Thanks for sharing that. I look forward to seeing some of your work here. (Again...I'm no-one) I look forward to your views and perspectives. We all work hard (though not hard enough) to be honest and forthright with sincere respect added. We'll see you around. Post some footy or links some time so we can enjoy your work.
taylormade
Well-known member
First of all, great work on getting this project done. Having made many shorts over the years, I know the amount of work that goes into something like this. Visually, I really liked a lot of what I saw on the screen. I saw no mushy faces or other problems with the overall look of the “film.”
Having that location was obviously a godsend. Maybe I’m incorrect, but I assume you wrote the script with it in mind. You’ve asked other posters to comment on specific things that may have bothered them, and I have to admit, for me there were a few. Before I do, I just want to say that I admire your work, your drive and your ambition. My criticisms are my own and everyone is free to disagree – or to tell me to drop dead.
Personally, I thought the acting was the biggest problem with the production. Emilio gave it a good shot, but the emotional range just wasn’t there. I didn’t believe him as a person. He was especially weak in the scene where he roots through the cupboard and vows vengeance. Robert Lambert seemed catatonic throughout the entire piece. He was so emotionless I couldn’t get a handle on who or what he was supposed to be. If the dead woman was his wife, or even a friend, he looked more like an undertaker examining the body and coming up with a price to embalm her than a grieving husband. Darwin Miller was very good as the bartender and Ben Wolf came off pretty well as the Stranger, although as written, the part didn’t offer much for him to do. (I’d reference Barry Pepper’s acting as Lucky Ned Pepper in the latest True Grit as a villain with a personality rather than just a snarl.)
Production values were good – especially on something with this budget. Still, Emilio’s wardrobe looked like something off the rack at Wal-Mart. And those boots! Where would a poor kid like that get a brand new pair of boots? If not bare feet, he would be wearing sandals at best. Same with Ben Wolf’s beard. It looked like he just had it trimmed at Hair for Men. If this is homage to spaghetti westerns, where was the stubble, the sweat, the grime? The old Alamo set worked in most places, but some of the obvious decay looked like a deteriorating movie set rather than a crumbling town. They didn’t have much tarpaper back then.
I loved the photography, but was baffled by several framing choices. The most problematic for me was the scene where the Stranger walked out on the street to face the Priest. Why cut his head off like that? I just sat there yelling pan up, pan up, rather than enjoying the scene. Warner Brothers haircuts are one thing, but cutting him off at the shoulders just didn’t work. Same problem when he hits the ground after being shot. He falls out of the frame and we miss the jarring impact of his justly deserved face plant. Even more annoying – you just see a little of his back as he hits. Either have him fall out of the frame or show him hitting the ground.
I’m sorry, but I too found the editing to be choppy in places. This may be more of a lack of choices, but the scene in the bar where the Stranger gets stands and walks to the bar screams for a two-shot or a close-up on him once he gets there. Playing it as a long shot really lessens the impact of his physical presence – he’s the bad guy after all – and playing those lines as he takes the glass and faces the bartender as a very long shot and then cutting to Darwin in a medium close shot puts all the emphasis on the bartender not the villain.
I thought the editing during the shootout was also very static. It just didn’t build, so the Stranger’s shooting of the Priest didn’t deliver like it should have. The dream sequence seemed like an unneccessary artistic touch and made an already too long film even longer. The walking/riding scenes to the shootout went on forever and often seemed like an effort to show a cool shot rather than to move the story along.
Good sound and music. I would have liked a bit more texture and ambiance. I missed the sound of the horse’s hoofs, stronger clicks from the mechanical action of the guns, wind in the trees, and the crunch of footsteps on the street.
Finally, you could see the ending coming a mile away. Emilio’s take and look when he asks to read a verse before dying is a dead giveaway if you haven't gotten there before. And what was the moral? If violence is evil why did the kid gun down the bad guy? Was the Priest supposed to be the moral core of the tale? Why would he allow the kid to gun down the Stranger – in fact, practically force him to do it? He shoves the bible/gun at the kid before he dies, practically begging the kid to shoot him.
Okay, enough bitching. Loved 80 percent of this. The riding scenes in the field were wonderful. I liked the dry, washed out look that really made you feel the hot, dry surroundings. And most of all – you did it. It’s finished, a final product, which is more than most “filmmakers” can say. I hope my comments will be seen as my take on the film and in no way an expert opinion.
Having that location was obviously a godsend. Maybe I’m incorrect, but I assume you wrote the script with it in mind. You’ve asked other posters to comment on specific things that may have bothered them, and I have to admit, for me there were a few. Before I do, I just want to say that I admire your work, your drive and your ambition. My criticisms are my own and everyone is free to disagree – or to tell me to drop dead.
Personally, I thought the acting was the biggest problem with the production. Emilio gave it a good shot, but the emotional range just wasn’t there. I didn’t believe him as a person. He was especially weak in the scene where he roots through the cupboard and vows vengeance. Robert Lambert seemed catatonic throughout the entire piece. He was so emotionless I couldn’t get a handle on who or what he was supposed to be. If the dead woman was his wife, or even a friend, he looked more like an undertaker examining the body and coming up with a price to embalm her than a grieving husband. Darwin Miller was very good as the bartender and Ben Wolf came off pretty well as the Stranger, although as written, the part didn’t offer much for him to do. (I’d reference Barry Pepper’s acting as Lucky Ned Pepper in the latest True Grit as a villain with a personality rather than just a snarl.)
Production values were good – especially on something with this budget. Still, Emilio’s wardrobe looked like something off the rack at Wal-Mart. And those boots! Where would a poor kid like that get a brand new pair of boots? If not bare feet, he would be wearing sandals at best. Same with Ben Wolf’s beard. It looked like he just had it trimmed at Hair for Men. If this is homage to spaghetti westerns, where was the stubble, the sweat, the grime? The old Alamo set worked in most places, but some of the obvious decay looked like a deteriorating movie set rather than a crumbling town. They didn’t have much tarpaper back then.
I loved the photography, but was baffled by several framing choices. The most problematic for me was the scene where the Stranger walked out on the street to face the Priest. Why cut his head off like that? I just sat there yelling pan up, pan up, rather than enjoying the scene. Warner Brothers haircuts are one thing, but cutting him off at the shoulders just didn’t work. Same problem when he hits the ground after being shot. He falls out of the frame and we miss the jarring impact of his justly deserved face plant. Even more annoying – you just see a little of his back as he hits. Either have him fall out of the frame or show him hitting the ground.
I’m sorry, but I too found the editing to be choppy in places. This may be more of a lack of choices, but the scene in the bar where the Stranger gets stands and walks to the bar screams for a two-shot or a close-up on him once he gets there. Playing it as a long shot really lessens the impact of his physical presence – he’s the bad guy after all – and playing those lines as he takes the glass and faces the bartender as a very long shot and then cutting to Darwin in a medium close shot puts all the emphasis on the bartender not the villain.
I thought the editing during the shootout was also very static. It just didn’t build, so the Stranger’s shooting of the Priest didn’t deliver like it should have. The dream sequence seemed like an unneccessary artistic touch and made an already too long film even longer. The walking/riding scenes to the shootout went on forever and often seemed like an effort to show a cool shot rather than to move the story along.
Good sound and music. I would have liked a bit more texture and ambiance. I missed the sound of the horse’s hoofs, stronger clicks from the mechanical action of the guns, wind in the trees, and the crunch of footsteps on the street.
Finally, you could see the ending coming a mile away. Emilio’s take and look when he asks to read a verse before dying is a dead giveaway if you haven't gotten there before. And what was the moral? If violence is evil why did the kid gun down the bad guy? Was the Priest supposed to be the moral core of the tale? Why would he allow the kid to gun down the Stranger – in fact, practically force him to do it? He shoves the bible/gun at the kid before he dies, practically begging the kid to shoot him.
Okay, enough bitching. Loved 80 percent of this. The riding scenes in the field were wonderful. I liked the dry, washed out look that really made you feel the hot, dry surroundings. And most of all – you did it. It’s finished, a final product, which is more than most “filmmakers” can say. I hope my comments will be seen as my take on the film and in no way an expert opinion.
Thanks for your response. I really wasn't trying to be negative with my reaction to the posted video clip; I thought what I said was pretty balanced, as it was more complimentary than critical. I've always felt it's more valuable to hear constructive criticism than flattery, but that's just me.
I'll try to be a little more constructive. Anyway, no harm, no foul; life goes on.
You're totally fine. I've been reminded on several occasions (once last week) to be mindful of how you say things. (Of how I said things) It's a good reminder to have (it was good for me)...it doesn't bug me when I'm reminded because this is a great community and we need all the help we can get to keep things positive and constructive. There has been an influx of new people (I'm sure that I'm a part of that)....and with every influx the need to "temper" the collective emotion here goes up. There has been some "blood" here in the past weeks, over the AF100 specifically...and that's totally fine and normal....but it gets out of hand quick...and I worry about this community that I love. I keep saying that "I'm no-one" because I don't have any influence or authority....I'm just a DVXUser that is grateful for what I have learned here....and how much more I will learn here. It's worry-some to see some of the "vets" be disenchanted with the "energy" here...I think we've all lost out there because of some negative new comers. Geez, I saw Philip Bloom get attacked by some smart mouth and he basically said, "Ya...I wonder why I don't spend much time here anymore" (I'm not speaking on his behalf, I'm just recounting what happened) This is a loss for us all....so I just try to make sure to help out when I can....
...the point is: You've won Emmys for your work. AWESOME! Share your talent and experience with us....we need it! Continue to be mindful of how you address others, even if it seems like you already have/are.....because we aren't trying to chase away our "community treasure".....and it sounds like you may well be that very caliber of DVXUser.
Lastly...YEP! No harm, no foul, life goes on. See you around.
Mad love to DVXUsers everywhere!
TimTheFoolMan
Well-known member
First and foremost, this is light years ahead of anything I've shot, in virtually every area. Even so, I'm tossing out a couple of thoughts on the random chance that a blind squirrel like me might somehow find an acorn.
The only scenes I would have shot differently would have been the burial scene, and the bar scene (as alluded to by taylormade above). As they were at the gravesite, I would have loved to have seen a slow crawl along the rocks over the body, leading to preacher's feet, or maybe some kind of a transitional shot to carry us from the previous scene, such as a swath of cloth from the covering that was over the woman's body being draped around the cross. At the same time, I loved the steadicam pull back and reveal of the 2nd and 3rd graves. That was outstanding.
There's something about the lighting of the bar scene, or possibly the set dressing, that just didn't have the same gritty feel as every other scene. Maybe it was the floor was too clean, or maybe it was that Ben's face was too well lit. I found myself wanting some harder shadows on him, to set him up as a bad guy, especially as he turns to his left at 1:54. That seems pretty petty criticism, but there ya go.
Also in the bar scene, there's also a line cross when we go from directly behind Ben giving his monologue at the table, and then are suddenly 90 degrees off-axis at the end of the bar. The line is between the two actors (in my mind), since the bartender would have been to our left when we're behind Ben, and is suddenly on our right at the end of the bar. That jump caused a bit of spatial disorientation for me, making me wonder what the structure of the room was like during my first viewing.
Audio-wise, I thought the music was fantastic, and the mix was great, with the possible exception of the boy's audio at 5:08 ("I'm going to kill him") and 5:28 ("You always say that"), which seemed dramatically brighter than all the remaining dialog, and probably more so because the boy's footsteps running up to the house sounded muted, like they were captured from inside the house. There was also a break in the cricket chirp as we went from the sunset to the preacher drinking. I would have liked to have seen an L-cut to the interior of the house, hearing the tinkling of the bottle before we see him popping the top.
But... the vistas... the dream sequence... the undercranked clouds... the helicopter shot of the boy running... the push over the well... the slow dolly track during and just after the showdown...
Rather than avoiding the grass blades that would've given other cameras fits, you went out of your way to put them in, and they looked great. This was really, really well-done. - Tim
The only scenes I would have shot differently would have been the burial scene, and the bar scene (as alluded to by taylormade above). As they were at the gravesite, I would have loved to have seen a slow crawl along the rocks over the body, leading to preacher's feet, or maybe some kind of a transitional shot to carry us from the previous scene, such as a swath of cloth from the covering that was over the woman's body being draped around the cross. At the same time, I loved the steadicam pull back and reveal of the 2nd and 3rd graves. That was outstanding.
There's something about the lighting of the bar scene, or possibly the set dressing, that just didn't have the same gritty feel as every other scene. Maybe it was the floor was too clean, or maybe it was that Ben's face was too well lit. I found myself wanting some harder shadows on him, to set him up as a bad guy, especially as he turns to his left at 1:54. That seems pretty petty criticism, but there ya go.
Also in the bar scene, there's also a line cross when we go from directly behind Ben giving his monologue at the table, and then are suddenly 90 degrees off-axis at the end of the bar. The line is between the two actors (in my mind), since the bartender would have been to our left when we're behind Ben, and is suddenly on our right at the end of the bar. That jump caused a bit of spatial disorientation for me, making me wonder what the structure of the room was like during my first viewing.
Audio-wise, I thought the music was fantastic, and the mix was great, with the possible exception of the boy's audio at 5:08 ("I'm going to kill him") and 5:28 ("You always say that"), which seemed dramatically brighter than all the remaining dialog, and probably more so because the boy's footsteps running up to the house sounded muted, like they were captured from inside the house. There was also a break in the cricket chirp as we went from the sunset to the preacher drinking. I would have liked to have seen an L-cut to the interior of the house, hearing the tinkling of the bottle before we see him popping the top.
But... the vistas... the dream sequence... the undercranked clouds... the helicopter shot of the boy running... the push over the well... the slow dolly track during and just after the showdown...
Rather than avoiding the grass blades that would've given other cameras fits, you went out of your way to put them in, and they looked great. This was really, really well-done. - Tim
heavyG
Underwater Giraffe Member
Thanks guys.
I thought it was great.
I wonder if - You showed this to non-camera / non-filmakers; how would they react? I think the story would pull them in, and the criticisms above would be non-issues.
I wonder if - You showed this to camera people / filmakers without them knowing what camera you used; how would they react? Would any of them be able to pinpoint camera and lenses used… Nope - I don't think so.
I thought it was great.
I wonder if - You showed this to non-camera / non-filmakers; how would they react? I think the story would pull them in, and the criticisms above would be non-issues.
I wonder if - You showed this to camera people / filmakers without them knowing what camera you used; how would they react? Would any of them be able to pinpoint camera and lenses used… Nope - I don't think so.
TheReverend
Well-known member
Wow... Well done!
This is a great little short! I love seeing films and I'm a natural critic (not the bad kind), so I'm gonna give some feedback below. No offense in any of this, just throwing out a viewpoint so you have audience reaction.
Visually stunning! The camerawork was pretty much perfect. The dream sequence particularly was gorgeous. The AF really is an amazing cam. Just epic.
Audio was really good. These days, Hollywood is all foley and ADR. This obviously wasn't, and as such the short feels less like a modern movie. But for audio recorded on location, this was VERY good. Music choices and placement was good.
Acting was pretty great! I liked the kids performance best. The look in his eyes was really believable. A couple scenes seemed a little not-true... The scene with the girl on the horse at the house, the showdown after the preacher is shot. I needed to see more character reaction/emotion to sell me on the weight of what's happening. Preacher gets shot and to me, the kid should either go straight to anger and try to retaliate, or be so overcome with grief his mind turns to vengeance. Here we get, "he got shot, I'm bending down to look at him, and now I'm gonna threaten this guy with a rock." Is there any additional material to build this section?
Story was good. I like the overall story. I wish we knew who the girl was. Lover of the preacher? Widow rancher opening her home? She is obviously very meaningful to these guys, but we never figure out why or in what way. Leaving details out about the villain/preacher relationship was good. Really interesting characters and plot.
Script seemed a bit unnatural to me. Thankfully y'all didnt have too much unnecessary script like many shorts do. I liked that. But some of the script seemed stilted to me, written grammatically perfect. For example, the bartender's line, "He'll never put down that bible." Maybe instead, "You know he wont be puttin' down that bible." Same with the kid's lines at the end of the showdown. "May I read a verse before dying?" Too grammatically perfect, respectful and clear for a boy who just watched his father figure killed. With fear, "May I..... May I read a verse... Before dying?" or with courage, "lemme read a verse... Before dying."
I agree with as has been mentioned that stubble on the villain, dirt on worn boots,.. Some of that kinda clean cut stuff"sticks out a tich.
But overall, honestly, it's good piece to be proud of. Y'all are to be commended for a good short. Brilliant moments? The whole dream sequence, transition sequence from house to town, the burial ground move with lens flare/sun, the monologue intro with cutaways to horse, the laughing villain... A bunch of great shots and scenes!
Congrats on the finished product!
This is a great little short! I love seeing films and I'm a natural critic (not the bad kind), so I'm gonna give some feedback below. No offense in any of this, just throwing out a viewpoint so you have audience reaction.
Visually stunning! The camerawork was pretty much perfect. The dream sequence particularly was gorgeous. The AF really is an amazing cam. Just epic.
Audio was really good. These days, Hollywood is all foley and ADR. This obviously wasn't, and as such the short feels less like a modern movie. But for audio recorded on location, this was VERY good. Music choices and placement was good.
Acting was pretty great! I liked the kids performance best. The look in his eyes was really believable. A couple scenes seemed a little not-true... The scene with the girl on the horse at the house, the showdown after the preacher is shot. I needed to see more character reaction/emotion to sell me on the weight of what's happening. Preacher gets shot and to me, the kid should either go straight to anger and try to retaliate, or be so overcome with grief his mind turns to vengeance. Here we get, "he got shot, I'm bending down to look at him, and now I'm gonna threaten this guy with a rock." Is there any additional material to build this section?
Story was good. I like the overall story. I wish we knew who the girl was. Lover of the preacher? Widow rancher opening her home? She is obviously very meaningful to these guys, but we never figure out why or in what way. Leaving details out about the villain/preacher relationship was good. Really interesting characters and plot.
Script seemed a bit unnatural to me. Thankfully y'all didnt have too much unnecessary script like many shorts do. I liked that. But some of the script seemed stilted to me, written grammatically perfect. For example, the bartender's line, "He'll never put down that bible." Maybe instead, "You know he wont be puttin' down that bible." Same with the kid's lines at the end of the showdown. "May I read a verse before dying?" Too grammatically perfect, respectful and clear for a boy who just watched his father figure killed. With fear, "May I..... May I read a verse... Before dying?" or with courage, "lemme read a verse... Before dying."
I agree with as has been mentioned that stubble on the villain, dirt on worn boots,.. Some of that kinda clean cut stuff"sticks out a tich.
But overall, honestly, it's good piece to be proud of. Y'all are to be commended for a good short. Brilliant moments? The whole dream sequence, transition sequence from house to town, the burial ground move with lens flare/sun, the monologue intro with cutaways to horse, the laughing villain... A bunch of great shots and scenes!
Congrats on the finished product!
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aurantaurant
Well-known member
Thanks for doing this. I bought the AF100 so I've been following this thread daily.
I thought the dialogue audio was amazing. Whoever the sound guy was did a great job.
My only gripe is that you're missing two shots and close ups.
But thanks a million for doing it. There is some really great stuff in here and it makes me feel better about my purchase.
I thought the dialogue audio was amazing. Whoever the sound guy was did a great job.
My only gripe is that you're missing two shots and close ups.
But thanks a million for doing it. There is some really great stuff in here and it makes me feel better about my purchase.
Homunculus
Carbonite Member
just quickly chime in I agree with what the guy above somewehre posted.
the production value was incredible. most of the shots and shooting was relaly good BUT
1. the acting was extremely stilted and unbelievable. the cowboy with the slash on his face was particularly campy and amateur
2. the priest had a good look and manner about him but no range whatsoever. as someone said he did seem catatonic and lifeless.
3. the framing choices also at times left me baffled and the guy hit the nail on the head, 2 of the worse ones were when the 'strange' is shot and hits the ground yet he falls out of frame really awkwardly and the worst in the whole film to me was in the opening at the bar scene when he walks up to the bar owner and snarls at him for some reason it amateurly stays in the long shot wayyyy too long when it really begs to be brought up close for a dramatic shot at that point
4.
the production value was incredible. most of the shots and shooting was relaly good BUT
1. the acting was extremely stilted and unbelievable. the cowboy with the slash on his face was particularly campy and amateur
2. the priest had a good look and manner about him but no range whatsoever. as someone said he did seem catatonic and lifeless.
3. the framing choices also at times left me baffled and the guy hit the nail on the head, 2 of the worse ones were when the 'strange' is shot and hits the ground yet he falls out of frame really awkwardly and the worst in the whole film to me was in the opening at the bar scene when he walks up to the bar owner and snarls at him for some reason it amateurly stays in the long shot wayyyy too long when it really begs to be brought up close for a dramatic shot at that point
4.
Haven't you seen The Untouchables? "He drawsh a gun, you draw a shtone!"
Stephen Mick
Totally Usable
Thanks to everyone for taking the time to watch the short and provide feedback. All opinions are valuable.
As for the many comments on sound, the man to recognize for that is, of course, our very own MattInSTL. He really gave us the best location sound we could have hoped for!
As for the many comments on sound, the man to recognize for that is, of course, our very own MattInSTL. He really gave us the best location sound we could have hoped for!
taylormade
Well-known member
I'm left-handed and slightly dyslexic - what can I tell you? "Tilt up, tilt up!
And to Stephen and all the talented people who worked on the short, I was trying to point out what bothered me as a professional filmmaker, not trash your work. I always have a screening of my stuff for all my pro friends and it's often the most revealing - and sobering crtique of my work.
And to Stephen and all the talented people who worked on the short, I was trying to point out what bothered me as a professional filmmaker, not trash your work. I always have a screening of my stuff for all my pro friends and it's often the most revealing - and sobering crtique of my work.
youngindiefilms
Well-known member
Very well done everyone, I'm a big Western fan. Beautiful!
bboggs
Hagrid Member
I think constructive criticism is the only way anyone's work can really get better. The important thing is to deliver it with tact. One of the best ways to deliver feedback is the Hamburger Method.
If you are unfamiliar with it, check out this link: http://n8tip.com/the-hamburger-method-of-constructive-criticism-works-for-vegetarians-too
Thank you to everyone who has taken time to write well thought out, articulate comments and feedback. Yes, that includes the negative ones too!
They are what enable filmmakers like myself to learn, grow and make films that will move audiences which is really the whole point now isn't it?
carry on. that is all.
If you are unfamiliar with it, check out this link: http://n8tip.com/the-hamburger-method-of-constructive-criticism-works-for-vegetarians-too
Thank you to everyone who has taken time to write well thought out, articulate comments and feedback. Yes, that includes the negative ones too!
They are what enable filmmakers like myself to learn, grow and make films that will move audiences which is really the whole point now isn't it?
carry on. that is all.
I'm going to give some "detail" critics 
- if the VO is the guy sitting and talking...his movements are not always in sync with the words..
- 00:40 "and the rain starts falling" "rain" is taken from another take it sounds different
- 00:51 "I'm tursty" --> I'm.... is from another take...sounds different
- I think some roomtone has to be add... I can hear differences in levels i dialogues (which is fixed by adding roomtone to make it as one piece)
- some Foley is needed here... The dialogues sound ok, but the sounds of "dropping things, moving chairs... " sounds to "roomy"
- if the VO is the guy sitting and talking...his movements are not always in sync with the words..
- 00:40 "and the rain starts falling" "rain" is taken from another take it sounds different
- 00:51 "I'm tursty" --> I'm.... is from another take...sounds different
- I think some roomtone has to be add... I can hear differences in levels i dialogues (which is fixed by adding roomtone to make it as one piece)
- some Foley is needed here... The dialogues sound ok, but the sounds of "dropping things, moving chairs... " sounds to "roomy"
Brandon Rice
Distributed Producer
Great work. The reveal of the many gravestones was my favorite shot!