SHORT: A labour of love

D

David Evans

Well-known member
Maybe hoping to get some feedback (even though this section hasn't been the same lately), here's my latest short film (written, directed, DPd and produced). A huge labour of love. Let me know what you guys think.

https://vimeo.com/253853838

Pass: mhpshorter

Cheers
 
Nobody? I know that 18min is quite some time for people to lose watching a short film, but if you get the time, please share your constructive thoughts :)

Thanks guys
 
I don't know if the following is helpful to you or not - I only watched until 3:50, and gave up. If that's not enough feedback, feel free to ignore!

Every work of art has to find its audience. Some people, for whatever reason, are going to avoid a given topic or theme - some people hate horror, or scary images, or whatnot. Me - I am generally extremely bored with small children. I don't find them "wise" and I am not a buyer of the "cute" kid sentimental works. Others will love it.

Given that fact - small kids bore me, I don't want to listen to minutes and minutes, and minutes and minutes of stuff that comes out of a 3 year old human brain. I am one of those adults who are interested in adult things, and while for example parents are always very fascinated by their own kids, strangers are usually not as fascinated.

SO, if I'm watching a work that involves a 5 year old, I NEED SOMETHING EXTRA. Not just the kid. Is the kid in danger? Is the kid a source of conflict between parents? Is the kid doing something unusual or interesting? If yes to any one of these, then I'll stick around, on the promise that YOU WILL GIVE ME SOMETHING IN ADDITION, not *just* the kid. How long do I have to wait until I get to see what that "extra" is? I will wait, if IN THE MEANWHILE you don't just show *boring* (to me) kid stuff (and kid voiceover), but if you somehow ENGAGE me. If you ENGAGE me, I'll wait for the kid until something else happens in addition. But this did not engage me long enough. I gave it time. First minute. Second minute. Third minute - now I'm growing extremely impatient. By the time 3:50 rolls around, and I see yet another cut to the same old boring voiceover I click the "close" button on my browser. I want those 3:50 back. There is no way on earth I am going to watch 18 minutes of this, I'd rather eat sand. Why did it not enage me? I am not interested in the thoughs a 5 year old has, so if you are giving me a voiceover of a 5 year old, I'm already super annoyed and bored. But what if that was written by an adult, and the 5 year old only speaks it - then it's inauthentic, and I'm not interested in what "ideas" the adult is putting into the mouth of a 5 year old. BOOOORING!! Also, it's way too wordy. Let the images speak, instead of drowing us in annoying "deep ideas" from a 5 year old or the adult impostor. But the images are also boring, so I guess there is no way out. If I am to be 100% honest, I only gave it as LONG as 3:50, because clearly you put a lot of work into it, and you deserve SOME answer, not just days of silence - ordinarily, I'd be out after about one minute. On the other hand, days of silence may tell you something... know what I mean?

Technically it was fine, nothing to out of the ordinary. Competent. My constructive criticism - remember, the #1 obligation of an artist is to ENGAGE their audience. It doesn't have to be loud, or through explosions or whatnot. It can be super quiet. But it has to ENGAGE. This did not engage. Find something engaging. Remember, just because you find it interesting, doesn't guarantee that others will. You know how parents think their child is SUPER SPECIAL and VERY INTERESTING? Well, to a stranger, it's just a kid, and nothing special. A labor of love is not enough to engage, it has to also connect to strangers. All IMHO, YMMV.
 
Hey. Every feedback is important, though I stopped reading yours when you said you gave up at 3min50. Clearly not for you and when i saw the length of the text I still had to read of someone who saw 3min of my film, I probably felt the same way you did when you noticed you still had 15 more minutes of film. All good. Stay safe.
 
I'm glad you said that. You know why? Because now you know why nobody wants to comment on some work - there is no benefit to either the commenter or the commented upon. I mean, one comments, and then gets a salty reaction back, just because one didn't praise it to the sky. Why bother? And so nobody does. It's a thankless task. You would think that when people tell you that your work causes them to stop watching, and tell you WHY, that is very valuable information. You'd think that, but that's not how people's egos work. And that's why you get silence. I kinda knew that there is probably little sense in commenting, but thought "hey, be nice and give a heads up" - and now I thank you for confirming that my first instinct was quite correct. Good news, I won't comment on your stuff ever again. Enjoy the peace!
 
You completely misunderstood my comment. If you'd seen the entire film and made a comment, then I would've read it with every bit of atention I could spare, just out of cortesy that someone actually saw my film and took the time to write about it. I watch a lot of short films on this and other forums and of course I don't see them all through until the end. But I would never write about a film of a fellow filmmaker that I had not seen from begining to end. I have to remind myself that it only takes me about 5min to write a text, but it takes a lot more to make a film. So the bare minimum I do is I only write about films that I actually saw. I wasn't complaining about you don't caring about the film. I'm an adult and for someone doing films for about 15 years, I kind of figured out we never please everyone. And that's the beauty of it.

Like I said, no hard feelings. I really wasn't offended by your comment (or what I've read of it), so nor should you. But it's really ironic that you feel somewhat offended by the fact that I only read the first paragraph of your text, but I should've been ok by you only watching 3min of my film. The irony of things...
 
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Yep, there is irony, but in the opposite way from what you imagine. When you submit a work and solicit feedback, you are asking FOR A FAVOR. Anybody who as much as glances at it is DOING YOU A FAVOR. Because the usual reaction is what you already got - silence, being ignored. Ask anybody who is in this business - you claim to have been in it for 15 years - nobody likes to read screenplays or watch blind submission films. People hate reading/watching stuff unless there is money on the table. Getting feedback is HUGE. People are doing you a GIANT favor. They are taking time out of their day to watch/read, and COMMENT. I write screenplays. I am super happy to find people to read. And do you know the kind of reader I like best? The honest one who is not involved at all. Friends (or family) are usually too polite to give straight critical response. The most valuable kind of response is the kind that gives it to you with no sugar. Treasure those people - they are rare. You clearly do not treasure such people... and that's the irony. The very people who are most valuable to you, you dismiss and devalue. Now, *that's* irony.

As to *only* valuing a criticism if it is based on the viewer suffering through the ENTIRETY of the work? That is just stupid. If a reader tells me, "I could only stomach 3 pages of your 120 page screenplay" AND EXPLAINS WHY - I fall to my knees with happiness. Because it alerts me to a potential devastating problem that discourages a consumer - and when the reader tells me why, I can then think about the issue. Even if they ONLY told me "I couldn't get through it" - THAT IS ALREADY SUPER VALUABLE. It tells me vital information - I am not engaging! A friend won't tell me that, because they'll feel under the obligation to read the whole sorry thing. A strager will not - an honest strager is worth DIAMONDS. I am so, so, fortunate to have honest people in my life, who are willing to tell me the brutal truth. I work on a screenplay and I make it as good as I can - so it is super important to me when sombody tells me "*THIS* is the place you failed".

"But I would never write about a film of a fellow filmmaker that I had not seen from begining to end."

Too bad. I wish people did tell each other "I couldn't take it". Honesty beats "courtesy" every time, in art. Because it is a stupid artist who doesn't value criticism IN EVERY FORM. In fact, I'd say, anyone who is offended by criticism - including "I couldn't finish it" - is not an artist at all, and is DOOMED TO FAIL. And anybody looking at such an exchange, would think "this guy is OFFENDED by honest criticism, I will NOT comment on his work". And you'll get silence.

As to my being "offended" by your not reading my comment - it's your loss. I already wrote it. I can't take it back, so if you don't take advantage of it, I am not losing anything. It's done. For me, your reaction is a GOOD one, because it saves me time in the future - I see your name, I won't waste time commenting on your work. Because I now know you're the kind of guy who neither understands criticism (including that "unable to finish" is one of the most powerful), nor appreciates the FAVOR someone does for you - you repay it with passive-aggressive offended ego, and then you lie about it. So thank you for letting me know who you are. Best of luck!
 
Dude, this is a forum of a lot of generous people who share their knowledge with each other, expecting that they can also learn in that experience. Every professional here could ask for money everytime someone asks for advice, not only about a short film they did, but also about a lens we want to buy but need different opinions, or a way to color grade a certain scene, etc etc. This is how online networking works. We are ALL doing a favour to each other by feeding useful FREE information in these forums. Don't take this the wrong way, but if I needed to pay someone to get his opinion on my film, it wouldn't be you. Nothing against you, of course.

About "honesty beating courtesy"... this is where we disagree. I am ALWAYS honest when someone asks me for a professional opinion. If someone asks me a sincere opinion of an 18min film I either say I don't have the time or if I say I'll watch it... then I DO watch it. That is professional courtesy. And if I don't like it, I say I didn't like it and explain why. And that is professional honesty.

You know, this is just a waste of time. If you say you'll ignore every participation with my name, that's fine. In fact, I insist. Please do ignore...

Just to finish this... if you'd say "hey I just watched 3min of your film and it blew me away. I loved it but I can't watch any more"... to me, this would have the same value as saying what you said on your first comment.
 
OK, let's end this discussion - and you can have the last word. I think your positions are nonsensical. If you don't want negative criticism - including "I couldn't finish it" - then DON'T SUBMIT FOR COMMENTARY and don't INVITE commentary. Or write: "only flattery please". If you ask for commentary, and in fact are upset that days pass without any (and as we can see, people were wise not to waste time on your stuff, given your reaction), then the grownup thing to do is to take ALL comments graciously, and not make transparently passive agressive snark at a person who gave you their time and attention.

1) If you understand the value of criticism - including "I couldn't finish it, because of X, Y, Z" - you are a smart artist, and you appreciate someone doing you a favor, you say THANK YOU!

2) If you see no value in someone's feedback, you say NOTHING (in fact, I kindly gave you that out, when I wrote "If that's not enough feedback, feel free to ignore!") - so you IGNORE, and say nothing.

3) If you are a fool, then you turn on the kind soul who actually took the time to watch ANY of your work, and COMMENT on it, CONSTRUCTIVELY - and then you make some snarky commentary back, as if the fault lies not with your work, but with the poor soul who was enough of a chump to take you at your word that you were looking for feedback and not flattery. That way you get to discourage not only the guy who did you the favor of commenting, but anyone else who reads this and sees just what they get for their efforts - now you warned everyone!

I see you picked option (3) - congratulations, lol.

And this is just flat out nonsense: "If someone asks me a sincere opinion of an 18min film I either say I don't have the time or if I say I'll watch it... then I DO watch it." It's not just about the TIME to watch 18 minutes - it's whether it's BEARABLE to watch for 18 minutes. The time is not the problem with your piece. It's the content that makes it impossible to get through. Fix the content and people will happily watch 50 hours (as they do when they binge watch shows). The problem is the content - it does not MERIT 18 minutes, and you are getting a generous audition at 3:50. Don't blame the viewer for your lack of engaging content. Today, when content is in voluminous supply, people have the ease of "swiping left" and you're GONE, unless you can hold attention. What is the point of watching the whole thing, when it fails in the first few minutes? If someone gives you a mathematical proof that is faulty, and you spot the mistake in the first page, do you keep reading the rest of the faulty proof? Do you also keep sitting in a car, when the engine collapses, hoping that somehow the engine fixes itself, or do you GET OUT and try to fix the issue? If someone watches your work, and tells you YOU HAVE A FATAL PROBLEM in the first 1-2-3-4 minutes, or whatever, why would you insist on torturing them for the rest of the work? There is no point in watching more, if you already spot a DISQUALIFYING FLAW. Lack of engagement is #1 - failing that, means the work is DEAD, and watching it further doesn't bring it back to life or magically fix the problem that killed it in the first few minutes. THANK the kind reviewer who alerts you to the PROBLEM with your piece only being able to hold attention for 3:50 - THANK THEM. If you are smart. If not, then keep doing what you're doing.

[EDIT] Btw. if you think the only valuable feedback comes from watching or reading the whole thing, then I'm afraid you have ZERO idea about how the world works - where do you think it is that f.ex. a blind submission manuscript is read by a book editor from cover to cover, if they already see it as hopeless by page 1? Do you really think they sit there for hours going through the whole hopeless mess just to be able to say "it does not hold attention"?? Where do you have the industry executives, who watch the first few minutes of a hopeless film submission and decide "I'll keep watching this boring @$$ incompentent work for the entire long time the director spent on it!". You're dreaming.
 
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Hey. Yeah, I'm going to let you have the last word. I think it works much better than anything I could think of to point out how ridiculous and out of proportions your comments are. Have a nice one.
 
Hi David,

Thank you for sharing with us, especially a labor of love, as that takes a level of courage to put it out there. I'll give you a few points of feedback:

1. I liked the opening in concept, good hook. Pulled me right away. However, then it got a bit long with the constant back and forth to the black screens and I noticed I started to lose interest. Pacing is essential. I could echo this feedback throughout the entire piece. Lots of great ideas. Lots of well done shots, sound design, ideas, and moments. But many of them are lost on outsiders because they aren't as precious about it as you are. I don't at all mean that in an insulting way, I mean it as one talking to myself. I can be very precious about my shots and work and the disciple it's taken me to cut relentlessly has been challenging. I often am able to see this more clearly when I come back a year later after the work is done, and no longer feel so attached, it becomes easy for me to see how I could have made something better had I been willing to be more objective and relentless in my cutting. I think Tarantino says something to this effect in an interview, about being too precious about some of his scenes and cuts and learning to overcome that, but I can't remember.

2. You have an artists mind and eye, I can tell. I love that. Stick to your vision and continue to press forward. You have something to say in the world that you can only say. Don't forget that, don't lose that.

3. Some of the sound design is too on the nose. I am thinking of the street scene with the booze. Some of the sounds were so present they felt fake. Other times the sound was very clean and nice. This part in particular was just too much. Too perfect, to front and center, feels fake. You should aim for natural here.

4. If you had to describe in 3 sentences what you are trying to say in this film, what would it be? Limit it to 3. Now, if you had to say in 1 sentence, what would it be?

5. Listen to all feedback, even the most brutal. Never be defensive. Detatch yourself from your work. Be relentless. Going a little zen here, but read Zen Mind Beginner's Mind for the best dissection of how an artist should be: non attached to their work. Your work is you, and yet it has nothing to do with you. Both are true. Old Corpse has something very valuable to say. He gave up at 3:50. I did not. But please do not overlook the value in what he is saying. Had I not been determined, I would have given up at 0:40 only because the pacing started to drag. But I didn't, because you asked for feedback. What am I saying here? You as an artist must (read: MUST) hook your audience. It is not any audience member's responsibility to finish your, it is your responsibility to compel them to stay. Your content should be a joyous blessing to watch, something in which a viewer cannot be pulled away from. The world is brutal and you have good things to say David - I can tell that. So make sure they are heard, by making sure someone is gripped in and doesn't get lost. What Old Corpse is really saying is you failed to pull him in. You failed to pull me in, too, but that's NOT because I don't like what you are trying to do. It's also not because I don't like kids, I quite like kids, and I love what you were doing here with seeing the world through a child's eyes. But the clock kept tiiccckkiiinggg and it kept going black and very little progressed. Things were very drawn out. And this wasn't just for a moment. The film is meditative and slow, which works great if you are really attached to it, but are you making this for you or to show something to the world? They won't stay tuned in like you will. It is not their baby. They are not attached to it. And if you want to make truly great art, you must be able to detach to see it objectively, kill your babies, and don't let yourself be precious about any cut, moment, shot, or anything. See your piece again through fresh eyes.

Don't get me wrong. I reject modern ADD pacing, too, but even films 30 years ago understood the essential nature of every second, sequence, and shot telling an essential part of the story. All killer, no filler. I genuinely feel like it would be worth your time to relentlessly cut this piece down into a 5 minute piece. You needn't throw away what you have already done. But I dare you, just TRY. You could even play with sequencing. What if you showed a glimpse of what was ahead, at the beginning? Or not, but, the point is - I come back to number #4. Now ask yourself, with that simplicity and razor focus, how could you tell your story within 5 minutes? What is the essence? 3 minutes? 1 minute?

Or, put as an old saying, "The more the words, the less the meaning".

Very few will hear what you have to say in this format and length. I would rather more of the world receive your message. It is good.

Thanks again for having the courage to share here with us.
 
filmguy123 said:
Hi David,

Thank you for sharing with us, especially a labor of love, as that takes a level of courage to put it out there. I'll give you a few points of feedback:

1. I liked the opening in concept, good hook. Pulled me right away. However, then it got a bit long with the constant back and forth to the black screens and I noticed I started to lose interest. Pacing is essential. I could echo this feedback throughout the entire piece. Lots of great ideas. Lots of well done shots, sound design, ideas, and moments. But many of them are lost on outsiders because they aren't as precious about it as you are. I don't at all mean that in an insulting way, I mean it as one talking to myself. I can be very precious about my shots and work and the disciple it's taken me to cut relentlessly has been challenging. I often am able to see this more clearly when I come back a year later after the work is done, and no longer feel so attached, it becomes easy for me to see how I could have made something better had I been willing to be more objective and relentless in my cutting. I think Tarantino says something to this effect in an interview, about being too precious about some of his scenes and cuts and learning to overcome that, but I can't remember.

2. You have an artists mind and eye, I can tell. I love that. Stick to your vision and continue to press forward. You have something to say in the world that you can only say. Don't forget that, don't lose that.

3. Some of the sound design is too on the nose. I am thinking of the street scene with the booze. Some of the sounds were so present they felt fake. Other times the sound was very clean and nice. This part in particular was just too much. Too perfect, to front and center, feels fake. You should aim for natural here.

4. If you had to describe in 3 sentences what you are trying to say in this film, what would it be? Limit it to 3. Now, if you had to say in 1 sentence, what would it be?

5. Listen to all feedback, even the most brutal. Never be defensive. Detatch yourself from your work. Be relentless. Going a little zen here, but read Zen Mind Beginner's Mind for the best dissection of how an artist should be: non attached to their work. Your work is you, and yet it has nothing to do with you. Both are true. Old Corpse has something very valuable to say. He gave up at 3:50. I did not. But please do not overlook the value in what he is saying. Had I not been determined, I would have given up at 0:40 only because the pacing started to drag. But I didn't, because you asked for feedback. What am I saying here? You as an artist must (read: MUST) hook your audience. It is not any audience member's responsibility to finish your, it is your responsibility to compel them to stay. Your content should be a joyous blessing to watch, something in which a viewer cannot be pulled away from. The world is brutal and you have good things to say David - I can tell that. So make sure they are heard, by making sure someone is gripped in and doesn't get lost. What Old Corpse is really saying is you failed to pull him in. You failed to pull me in, too, but that's NOT because I don't like what you are trying to do. It's also not because I don't like kids, I quite like kids, and I love what you were doing here with seeing the world through a child's eyes. But the clock kept tiiccckkiiinggg and it kept going black and very little progressed. Things were very drawn out. And this wasn't just for a moment. The film is meditative and slow, which works great if you are really attached to it, but are you making this for you or to show something to the world? They won't stay tuned in like you will. It is not their baby. They are not attached to it. And if you want to make truly great art, you must be able to detach to see it objectively, kill your babies, and don't let yourself be precious about any cut, moment, shot, or anything. See your piece again through fresh eyes.

Don't get me wrong. I reject modern ADD pacing, too, but even films 30 years ago understood the essential nature of every second, sequence, and shot telling an essential part of the story. All killer, no filler. I genuinely feel like it would be worth your time to relentlessly cut this piece down into a 5 minute piece. You needn't throw away what you have already done. But I dare you, just TRY. You could even play with sequencing. What if you showed a glimpse of what was ahead, at the beginning? Or not, but, the point is - I come back to number #4. Now ask yourself, with that simplicity and razor focus, how could you tell your story within 5 minutes? What is the essence? 3 minutes? 1 minute?

Or, put as an old saying, "The more the words, the less the meaning".

Very few will hear what you have to say in this format and length. I would rather more of the world receive your message. It is good.

Thanks again for having the courage to share here with us.
Click to expand...

Hey!

Thank you very much for that detailed feedback!

I'm actually still working on some of the post stuff, so that kind of feedback is very valuable. I'll try to adress all your points:

1 - Very true. I'm still trying to do a 15min version of this short. However, I also believe there's a very real difference between someone watching a vídeo online and on the movie theatre. I speak for myself. It's just too easy to fast forward something you're watching online. Sometimes it's almost unfair. One of the films that I loved the most in the past 10 years was Tree of Life, by Terrence Malick. But you wouldn't imagine how many people walked off the theatre during that film. As a filmmaker (and I use this word without any presumption), I feel that I can say the same in 1min or in 10min. But sometimes it takes time to install a certain feeling, a certain idea and all the details. Even if a new scene is repeating the same idea, sometimes it's doing it in a different way that ressonates on a deeper level with each individual (but it wouldn't ressonate like that if it weren't for the scene that came before). I felt that when watching Tree of Life. And please, don't get be wrong. I wouldn't dream of comparing myself with Terrence Malick, but that sort of filmmaking is very personal to me. Very liberating to be able to shoot like that. Nonetheless, I will (and am) review my short to know exactly where I can cut without compromising the kind of cinema I'm trying to do. :)

2 - thank you for that!

3 - yes!! You are right and that particular scene is still on my to do list. I have to work that ADR bit.

4 - "This is a film about a little girl trying to figure out how to draw a happy picture for school. But first she needs to understand how to be happy." I am very sensitive when it comes to that idea "what is this shot saying that makes the story go forward?". I never quite agreed with this... I don't think every scene should be about narratively moving a story forward. It can just be about working a particular idea or feeling that doesn't even make any difference to the actual story, but makes all the difference in the world to the storytelling. Of course, we run the risk that people feel dettached of that kind of filmmaking, but that's ok. I know that time is important and people have very little of that nowadays. This short is actually about that! :) It's about a little girl that became just one more task in the daily routine of her parents. They don't have time to play with her. Essentially, they don't have the time to be in her world. That's what the last shot of the trampoline means. It's her happy Picture. The way that is was shot, it almost feels like the kids became the parents, but it's exactly the other way around: the parents became those kids she saw (not literally of course). This is actually a pretty complex story that envolves a lot of different elements that don't necessarily make the story go forward, but rather feed the story with (in my opinion) elements of interest, of drama. I'm thinking of her imaginary friend and how the little girl confides her with all of her very intimate thoughts. The way that I shoot the parents, always in silhoette or from the back, but never a clear shot, as if they're not a part of her world. In fact, this film is shot literally, inside her world. We, as viewers, are invited in and keep waiting for more elements to come inside, so that she understands what a happy picture is. The first human element we see clearly is the homeless man (which, btw, has a doll in his bag, suggesting, maybe, that he also had a daughter he lost or hasn't seen in a while). This is very subtle, of course, but it's there. And the way she plays with the homeless man, by feeding him imaginary food (him, a homeless guy who is starving). So, you see, in my perspective, I could tell the basic story in 5min, maybe less. But I wouldn't be passionate enough to do it. It's all these details that got me passionate about telling it.

5 - I'm never defensive about feedback :). Just non constructive feedback which, fortunately, is very rare. Your feedback was great, thank you! :)
 
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It's a very true point about a captive audience in theaters! Agree here if this is your vehicle for delivery. I often tell clients when they request a video, if it is for a banquet or internal showing, we can get away with making it much longer. We have them trapped! :D Online, speed, efficiency, and keeping them hooked is key.

Which, I admit, can be frustrating. But I also recognize the immense power of the distribution network, and I may ever reach 2000-10000 people in a theater VS millions online. So it's all a give and take contingent on your goals.

I hear what you mean about every frame advancing the story. I think the thought there is not to over rush a film to a ridiculous extent. Because, slow pacing CAN advance the story and build tension. Extra shots CAN have meaning. Advancing the story can go hand in hand with advancing the emotion, and this advice has been oft quoted incorrectly. Through that lens, what I like to do is to really analyze every shot and ask myself objectively how much it is helping my goal, and precisely what it is doing and why, and if I can communicate the same thing more efficiently and thus more effectively in any other way.

That said, your voice is your own. And there is no artist who as anything worth anything to say that will be universally appreciated. It's a struggle and balancing act for sure.

Keep an open mind, stay humble, stay hungry, stay foolish, stay passionate, keep pushing! Inspired by your commitment to such a labor (and love) intensive piece, and wish you continued success!

Thanks for taking time to respond to my feedback, and I am glad it was helpful :) Best wishes.
 
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