A few questions on the FS-700 and Speed Booster - From a C100 user

Thanks, Gene!

Are most clips in the 'Movies' section shot with the FS700?

I'm not saying grading is easy, but my father is a painter and I grew up in arts galleries and have a background as a graphic designer, colour and form comes quite easy to me.
But for most clips I've seen on the net there's some more organic and filmic vibe to the Canon stuff and a more clinical feel to the Sony stuff. If it's just (or mostly) the colours then I can fix that. If there's more to it, then the decision's difficult again.
 
Check out my live action reel which is about 60% FS700. There's a decent amount in movies as well. My Vimeo page has just random FS700 test that aren't in my portfolio URL.

Vimeo.com/bubuiltbyugene
 
A lot of splitting hairs. Just to add to the complexity (but not the outcome) the designer of the SB did say at one point that it did effectively change the optical formula of the lens and that the focal length is 'technically' different. Of course the result is that a given lens shows a wider effective fov and a faster effective stop. The DOF remains the same but seems deeper because of the wider fov.

They're nice, the only downside is they do add significant distortion. So it very much depends what you're shooting on.

I'd love to see a A mount version that maintained contacts through to the lens. If anyone else is interested in that then PM me because i did mention that to metabones and if a significant number of people request it perhaps it will happen. I want my ZA zooms to be wider and faster :)

cheers
Paul
 
dmitrizigany said:
Ok, this discussion went haywire quickly ;)

Does it really matter? The C100 and FS700 both use Super 35mm sensors. If using the same lens you will have the same FOV with both cameras. If you use the SB on the FS700 you will have a wider FOV than the C100. And it will get more light. Thus the FS700 will have more choices when it comes to lenses than the C100. Why complicate it and start talking FF when none of the cameras are FF, what it's like compared to FF is totally irrelevant.

But what I wanna know is: Gene_can_sing, you said it's easy to make the FS700 look like the C100 with grading? Looking at most videos online, the C100 generally feels more filmic to me, but on the other hand it's difficult to find anything shot with the FS700 that is not super slow motion!
I currently have the Sony EA50 but was aiming for the FS700 eventually but seeing footage from the C100 has made me start thinking maybe it's not the best for me. But if it's just a question of picture profiles and grading then the FS700 is the better choice, cause I don't mind grading.

Cheers

DZ
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Im coming from canon as well and Gene is the one that got me to buy the fs700. Im really happy with it, but im new and still learning, but yeah I saw alot of (in my humble opinion) video-ish work and was confused.
Gene is guilty of charge, with this as proof:
https://vimeo.com/46945154

:)
 
freshTEA said:
..... but yeah I saw alot of (in my humble opinion) video-ish work and was confused.
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Oh.. We start it again :) .. All the difference between C-100 and FS-700 in this matter coming up because Canon C-100, C-300 and C-500 sensor little bit BIGGER in size ( 24.5mm X13.8mm ), than sensor in FS-700 (23.6mm X 13.3mm )! .. so, to get the same DOF we have to use FASTER lenses on FS-700! ... :2vrolijk_08:

.. and of course we need to pay attention to COLOR.. as on FS-700 it's almost NEUTRAL.. a specially in Slog-2
...Canon cameras are NOT neutral.. and usually do "coloring" for shooter, but it's turn to be hard to CHANGE it in post-production

I tell you again and again: "Film-looks-like" is the result of SCENE, LIGHTING, COMPOSITION and DOF combined!

SirCharles_012.jpg


Frame_05.jpg


Frame_025.jpg


So.. ? .. :)
 
paulcurtis said:
A lot of splitting hairs. Just to add to the complexity (but not the outcome) the designer of the SB did say at one point that it did effectively change the optical formula of the lens and that the focal length is 'technically' different. Of course the result is that a given lens shows a wider effective fov and a faster effective stop. The DOF remains the same but seems deeper because of the wider fov.

They're nice, the only downside is they do add significant distortion. So it very much depends what you're shooting on.

I'd love to see a A mount version that maintained contacts through to the lens. If anyone else is interested in that then PM me because i did mention that to metabones and if a significant number of people request it perhaps it will happen. I want my ZA zooms to be wider and faster :)

cheers
Paul
Click to expand...
I was thinking the same thing just the other day. Sony/zeiss 24-70 f2.8 with speed booster would be real nice
Thanks
 
So true well stated, probably 75% of the (dreaded 25 min preview) commercials and promos at the theatre are shot digitally. Looks good to me on the big screen. Wait till the 4k handles the highlights and dark shadows and then compare with the c100 or even c300 for that matter. You want a better film look in my humble opinion Sonys gonna give you more than the c100 as far as sharpness, latitude and DR.

Thanks
 
freshTEA said:
Im coming from canon as well and Gene is the one that got me to buy the fs700. Im really happy with it, but im new and still learning, but yeah I saw alot of (in my humble opinion) video-ish work and was confused.
Gene is guilty of charge, with this as proof:
https://vimeo.com/46945154
Click to expand...
Damn, those dogs are ugly! haha
But the footage looked great!

Again, nice to see the FS700 used in a different way. As most footage I've found is either only super slow motion or people doing things so far from what I wanna do.
 
SergeSmArt said:
I tell you again and again: "Film-looks-like" is the result of SCENE, LIGHTING, COMPOSITION and DOF combined!
Click to expand...
Yes, that's quite obvious. But the camera can make it harder or easier. I guess that dynamic range, and where that dynamic range is plays a big part in how your footage will look. And different cameras have it in different places. Take a look at the long thread about the F35, for example. That's why I'm asking if the difference between the C100 and FS700 is mainly the way they handle colour, because if so, that can be corrected.
 
dmitrizigany said:
Yes, that's quite obvious. But the camera can make it harder or easier..... That's why I'm asking if the difference between the C100 and FS700 is mainly the way they handle colour, because if so, that can be corrected.
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As I told you - it' is because "the way they handle colour" ...and DOF ! Use much faster lenses on FS-700 and do very SPECIFIC GRADING in post... a specially when you shoot in RAW :).. and the result can be even better then from RED cameras! :)
 
One big thing to remember is that Canon's H.264 is more compatible with Quicktime than AVCHD, so unless you take certain steps, the Canon's starts off at an advantage in post. Not sure if this applies to the C-100 but certainly the DSLRs.

I've pixel peeped this a number of times against Waveforms and if you look at a Canon image (at least from the 60D), the whites and blacks are automatically flagged and brought back to under 100, while the FS700 whites over 100 get clipped by quicktime (even the broadcast safe Cinegamma 2 still gets clipped), thus losing dynamic range, and it's very noticeable and instantly less "Filmic."

You have to either use 5DtoRGB to restore the Full Range or re-map the levels to 15-235 in a post program.

I don't think a lot of people take this extra step and this is definitely necessary to get the full DR. Here's how PDR explained it:

"The reason for this difference is Canon DSLR footage is yuvj420p , not yuv420p . The "j" means it's flagged as full range in the AVC bitstream. Open source decoders (libav) decode this full range (i.e. they obey the flag) . Any decoder based on Quicktime will clamp the data to Y' 16-235 (ie it will ignore the flag) . If you don't clamp the data, but decode standard range, the data in the superbright (Y'236-255) , and superdark (Y' 0-15) will be clipped (not clamped) - it will be lost permanently . I'm fairly certain 5DtoRGB uses libav and open source implementation for everything, including prores encoding (it's not Apple certified). If you didn't use full range, you will get clipping (blacks crushed, whites blown out)"

Once again, not sure if this applies to AVCHD of the C-100; but I have a feeling it does.
 
dmitrizigany said:
Yes, that's quite obvious. But the camera can make it harder or easier. I guess that dynamic range, and where that dynamic range is plays a big part in how your footage will look. And different cameras have it in different places. Take a look at the long thread about the F35, for example. That's why I'm asking if the difference between the C100 and FS700 is mainly the way they handle colour, because if so, that can be corrected.
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Im with you dmitrizigany, A camera can make it harder or easier. Just because A Canon camera is somewhat easier (lower learning curve) and a more appealing picture out the camera than maybe a RED camera is at first glance (to an untrained eye) doesnt make the RED worse... The RED is by far a more superior video camera in my knowledge, it just that it takes a little more work & knowledge. I own a fs700 now and I still think there is a lot of stuff out there from the fs700 that look video-ish, that is my opinion and many others. I know now after I myself been working with it that I can make it more appealing to me.

Im still curious Gene, I think I read quicktime and mac, does the 5DtoRGB still count when in avchd and on a PC? Thx for you tips
 
Hey Freshtea, I think the version of 5DtoRGB that has the Full Range option might be Mac only. Maybe contact them. For me, I just re-map the values in After Effects. Does the exact same thing and i've pixel peeped it to hell.
 
paulcurtis said:
They're nice, the only downside is they do add significant distortion. So it very much depends what you're shooting on.

I'd love to see a A mount version that maintained contacts through to the lens. If anyone else is interested in that then PM me because i did mention that to metabones and if a significant number of people request it perhaps it will happen. I want my ZA zooms to be wider and faster :)
Click to expand...

A-mount SB apparently coming in August: http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/meta...-coming-in-august-vizelex-clone-now-in-stock/

Not sure if electronics are maintained though.

The added barrel distortion is really what drew me away from the SBs in the end.
 
unfortunately, barrel distortion just happens when a camera is using more of the lens.

Photozone.de (who are very thorough) have tested the SAME lens numerous times on APS-C then on a full frame camera like the 5D. In every case, the barrel distortion is more to significantly more on the full frame camera. This gets more exaggerated as the lens gets wider.

So I guess if you're OK with the barrel distortion on your 5D, you should be able to live with it on the FS700.
 
gene_can_sing said:
unfortunately, barrel distortion just happens when a camera is using more of the lens.
Click to expand...

But it's also true that the SB itself adds barrel distortion. I'm using the same Contax lenses on a film camera and on a NEX-7 via SB. Much less barrel in the former case.
 
On the topic of Sony colors vs. Canon colors: all that's needed to get perhaps 99% of the way from Sony to the Canon look is a 3D lookup table. I'm pretty sure Filmconvert is using a 3D LUT: shoot color charts with camera A, shoot color charts with camera B, use software to create 3D color map (LUT) which maps colors from one chart to the other, massage the data to deal with noise, etc., and save out the 3D LUT. Camera profiles must be known, etc. That said, shooting the same scene with a Canon camera and a Sony camera allows for quick A/B comparisons, and with practice the Sony camera can be matched fairly well to the Canon camera using 2D color curves, saturation, 3-way CC, etc.
 
This has been a great thread!

Thanks for all the responses. Quick question regarding the new firmware, does it output any better than 8bit 422 over the HD-SDI after the firmware update? Can it output 10bit to an external recorder?
 
aly324 said:
A-mount SB apparently coming in August: http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/meta...-coming-in-august-vizelex-clone-now-in-stock/

Not sure if electronics are maintained though.

The added barrel distortion is really what drew me away from the SBs in the end.
Click to expand...

I missed that, great news, i shall email metabones now...

I don't know how much added distortion is SB vs the lens itself, i don't have anything full frame to compare on. I'm using Contax Zeiss lenses with it and yes there's quite a bit of added barrel.

I'd love to see a comparison between FF and SB

cheers
Paul
 
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