A few questions on the FS-700 and Speed Booster - From a C100 user

[draculr]

I had some questions regarding the FS700 and the speed booster. I currently have a C100 and am wanting a comparison of what the FS700 + SB would be like against it.

So first things first does the FS700 have S-Log2 inbuilt when recording internally to AVCHD?

Secondly, with the speed booster. I get how it works in terms of letting more light through, so a 24-105mm f4 becomes a 24-105mm f2.8. But DOF wise, does it stay the same as an F4 lens on a full frame or is it actually like a F2.8 on a full frame? I don't see how it would work for DOF, I'm assuming the DOF remains like an F4 (or like a 16-70mm f2.8 on a crop)?

Do you retain the IS on the FS700+SB? If so, does it work the same way?

Does anyone use this combo? How would you rate it against the C100?

 

[jcs]

With the upgrade, SLog2 is available for AVCHD.
SpeedBooster changes the T-Stop vs F-Stop, so DOF is from F4.
IS works.
This is my favorite lens with this setup. Also have the 70-200 II 2.8L, 16-35 2.8L, 50 1.4; all work well.

In bright light outdoors, the 18-200 kit lens works well with auto ISO for live event shooting. The 18-200 servo lens is also useful for controlled slow zooms.

Vs C100: pixel peeping/charts C100 has slightly higher resolution. Out of the camera, C100 can look more pleasing e.g. skin tones. FS700 looks great with minor post work and/or modified camera profiles. With SpeedBooster and minor post color work, FS700 can look very similar to 5D3 + super low light performance. FS700 has killer slomo...

 

[Gene Sung]

To put it simply, FS700 with Speed Booster turns it into a full frame video camera, like the 5D. You get .71x wider field of view and 1 stop faster on lenses. So a Canon 24-105 f4 becomes a 17-75mm f2.8.

Philip Bloom did a speed booster tests compared to the full frame 1DC and it seriously looked almost identical.

The difference look wise between the C100 and the FS700 is that the C100 is essentially pre-graded colors while the FS700 is just very realistic looking colors. It seriously look very close to what you see. For me, since I'm a grading maniac, I prefer that. Some people like the look to come out of the camera. It's really easy to get the FS700 to look like Canons because it's so neutral and it's easier to get the FS700 to look like whatever you want because of it's neutrality of color. And I do know Canon's very well as I have had 3 Canon DSLRs and used them extensively for 4 years.

I just started messing with S-Log (internal to SDHC) yesterday and so far it's pretty great (knock on wood). According to Art Adams (who really knows what he's doing), the FS700 has about 12 useable stops non-S Log:

http://provideocoalition.com/aadams/story/cameras_sony_fs700_dynamic_range_presentation/

No exaggeration, S-Log easily adds 1 stop if not more so you are in 13+ stops. The Dynamic range is very noticeable greater with S-Log. It's pretty freaking amazing what it does to the skies, and it seems holds up to moderate grading pretty well so far. Before I hype it too much, I gotta mess with it more. It might have issues with greens being off, but I think it might be I need to learn how to grade Log footage better. The reds freaked me out at first because they looked orange, but I think I figured out how to fix that.

But yeah, take that with a grain of salt as I just started pixel peeping S-Log yesterday. Tomorrow, I could say it sucks; but I hope not.

The reason I got the FS700 over the Canons is because of the FS700 with slow motion can create a very special emotion you just cannot replicate with other cameras in the price range.

Sorry to link this again (just trying to illustrate my point), but this skate project (just dailies put to music, un-treated, still in progress, 60-480 fps) is nothing you can even remotely achieve on a C-100 or C-300; but you can get an FS700 to look pretty close to anything done on a C300.

http://builtbyugene.com/mov_clients2...AD1_Edit_0103a

Once again, I apologize in advance for re-positing this video. Not trying to promote.

 

[SergeSmArt]

I had some questions regarding the FS700 and the speed booster. I currently have a C100 and am wanting a comparison of what the FS700 + SB would be like against it.

So first things first does the FS700 have S-Log2 inbuilt when recording internally to AVCHD?

Secondly, with the speed booster. I get how it works in terms of letting more light through, so a 24-105mm f4 becomes a 24-105mm f2.8. But DOF wise, does it stay the same as an F4 lens on a full frame or is it actually like a F2.8 on a full frame? I don't see how it would work for DOF, I'm assuming the DOF remains like an F4 (or like a 16-70mm f2.8 on a crop)?

Do you retain the IS on the FS700+SB? If so, does it work the same way?

Does anyone use this combo? How would you rate it against the C100?

at first - FS-700 is 4K RAW camera... so this is much more important then SB with it ... to find out how good is it, take a look to this video:

and keep in mind: Speed Booster work as usual X1.4 Tele-converter, but opposite way: made FOV wider and as the aperture do not change actually in real size - it's becoming faster - F4 turn into F2.8 - ( opposite as in tele-converter when use it with 200mm F2.8 lens it become 280mm F4 lens )

.... I try Metabones Speed Booster ( MSB ) with Canon 24-105 F4L IS lens , Canon 70-200 F2.8L IS-II lens and Sigma 150mm F2.8 Macro lens.. Here some screenshots:

1. 24-105 at 24mm F4

Original: http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/MSB/Canon24-105_24mm(-36.6-)-F4.jpg
----------------------
2. 24-105 at 24mm + MSB = 25.9mm F2.8

Original: http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/MSB/Canon24-105_25.9mm-F2.8.jpg
-------------------------
3. 24-105 at 105mm F4

Original: http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/MSB/Canon24-105_105mm(160)-F4.jpg
----------------------
4. 24-105 at 105mm + MSB = 113.6mm F2.8

Original: http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/MSB/Canon24-105_113.6mm-F2.8.jpg
----------------------
5. 24-105 at 105mm F4

Original: http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/MSB/Canon24-105_105mm(160)-F4_2.jpg
----------------------
6. 24-105 at 105mm + MSB = 113.6mm F2.8

Original: http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/MSB/Canon24-105_113.6mm-F2.8_2.jpg
--------------------
7. 70-200 at 70 mm F2.8

Original: http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/MSB/Canon70-200_70mm(106.7)F2.8.jpg
-----------------------
8. 70-200 at 200 mm F2.8

Original: http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/MSB/Canon70-200_200mm-(304.8)F2.8b.jpg
------------------------
9. 70-200 at 200mm+ MSB = 216 mm F2.0

Original: http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/MSB/Canon70-200_200mm-(216.4)F2.0b.jpg
--------------------------
10. 70-200 at 200 mm F2.8

Original: http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/MSB/Canon70-200_200mm-(304.8)F2.8a.jpg
--------------------------
11. 70-200 at 200mm+ MSB = 216 mm F2.0

Original: http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/MSB/Canon70-200_200mm-(216.4)F2.0a.jpg
----------------------
12. Sigma 150mm F2.8

Original: http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/MSB/SigmaMacro150-(228.6)-F2.8_2.jpg
----------------------
14. Sigma 150mm+ MSB=169.1mm F2.0

Original: http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/MSB/SigmaMacro150-(169.1mm)-F2.0_2.jpg
-------------------
15. Sigma 150mm+ MSB=169.1mm F2.0 -a (cars in Bokeh )

Original: http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/MSB/SigmaMacro150(169.1mm)F2.0_a.jpg
----------------------------
16. Sigma 150mm+ MSB=169.1mm F2.0 -b ( Red tint on car is a flower at front )

Original: http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/MSB/SigmaMacro150(169.1mm)F2.0_b.jpg
-------------------------
17. Sigma 150mm F2.8

Original: http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/MSB/SigmaMacro150(228.6)F2.8_a.jpg
---------------------------
18. Sigma 150mm+ MSB=169.1mm F2.0

Original: http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/MSB/SigmaMacro150(169.1mm)F2.0b.jpg
---------------------------
19. Sigma 150mm F2.8

Original: http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/MSB/SigmaMacro150-(228.6)-F2.8.jpg
----------------------------
20. Sigma 150mm+ MSB=169.1mm F2.0

Original: http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/MSB/SigmaMacro150-(169.1-mm)-F2.0.jpg
-----------------------------
21. Sigma 150mm+ MSB=169.1mm F2.0

Original: http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/MSB/SigmaMacro150(169.1mm)F2.0_c.jpg
-----------------------------------------
22. Sigma 150mm F2.8

Original: http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/MSB/SigmaMacro150(228.6)F2.8_b.jpg
----------------------------
23. Sigma 150mm+ MSB=169.1mm F2.0

Original: http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/MSB/SigmaMacro150-(169.1-mm)-F2.0b.jpg

....but at first you have to decide - if you want FS700 4K RAW and SlowMotion up to 240fps in 2K... or NOT ??

.. if not - there is NO reason to changbe Canon C 100 to Sony FS-700 !!!

 

[SergeSmArt]

.....No exaggeration, S-Log easily adds 1 stop if not more so you are in 13+ stops. The Dynamic range is very noticeable greater with S-Log. It's pretty freaking amazing what it does to the skies, and it seems holds up to moderate grading pretty well so far. Before I hype it too much, I gotta mess with it more. It might have issues with greens being off, but I think it might be I need to learn how to grade Log footage better. The reds freaked me out at first because they looked orange, but I think I figured out how to fix that. But yeah, take that with a grain of salt as I just started pixel peeping S-Log yesterday. Tomorrow, I could say it sucks; but I hope not.


http://builtbyugene.com/mov_clients2...AD1_Edit_0103a

You sample is good ( even I would prefer to see it on You Tube ) .. but I think you better try to shoot with Sony HXR-IFR5 and AXS-R5 to get 4K RAW files from your camera and you will see a full potential of 12 Bit RAW Dynamic Range !
It's almost as good as F5 / F55 camera and much better then F3 ... and you don't have to buy this expensive devices to do that - I'm sure we will have them in every VIDEO-RENTAL store very soon! :cheesy:

When I've got FS-700 one year ago - I did it because of 4K RAW.. not because of Slow Motion.. and now I feel - I was right! :2vrolijk_08:

 

[draculr]

....but at first you have to decide - if you want FS700 4K RAW and SlowMotion up to 240fps in 2K... or NOT ??

.. if not - there is NO reason to changbe Canon C 100 to Sony FS-700 !!!

Yea this is what I'm trying to decide on. I don't care for the 4K at all it's just the slow motion vs a more handhold friendly camera. I definitely enjoy taking the C100 out of the bag with an IS lens and filming handheld.

 

[Gene Sung]

Yea this is what I'm trying to decide on. I don't care for the 4K at all it's just the slow motion vs a more handhold friendly camera. I definitely enjoy taking the C100 out of the bag with an IS lens and filming handheld.

FS700 gets a undeserved bad rap on the ergonomics. I shoot it barebones handheld all the time and it's great for that. I don't even have the side handle on the camera, I just cradle the box with my right hand underneath and it's super stable. Modify / Shorten the viewfinder and you have a really useful EVF. I haven't tried the Z-Finder on the C-100 yet, but when I played with it in the store, that was the biggest weakness for C-100 handheld was no EVF (sorry, but that little thing does not count).

Check out the videos on my site. Lots of FS700 handheld and I almost never use any type of rig.

 

[evilthought]

To put it simply, FS700 with Speed Booster turns it into a full frame video camera, like the 5D. You get .71x wider field of view and 1 stop faster on lenses. So a Canon 24-105 f4 becomes a 17-75mm f2.8.
.

That is absolutely incorrect and misinformation. 24-105mm without the speed-booster becomes 36-157mm on APSC (or super 35mm) cameras with about one stop more DOF compared to full-frame still camera. With the speed-booster adapter, the lens retains the same field of view on APSC (or super 35mm) as it would on a full-frame still camera. That is, the lens will stay as 24-105mm (instead of giving 36-157mm field of view).

To the OP: Yes your DOF wil be very similar to what you will get on a full-frame still camera if you are shooting wide open on both cameras (i,e 5D vs FS700 with speedster).

Please don't post misinformation if you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[aly324]

That is absolutely incorrect and misinformation. 24-105mm without the speed-booster becomes 36-157mm on APSC (or super 35mm) cameras with about one stop more DOF compared to full-frame still camera. With the speed-booster adapter, the lens retains the same field of view on APSC (or super 35mm) as it would on a full-frame still camera. That is, the lens will stay as 24-105mm (instead of giving 36-157mm field of view).

To the OP: Yes your DOF wil be very similar to what you will get on a full-frame still camera if you are shooting wide open on both cameras (i,e 5D vs FS700 with speedster).

Please don't post misinformation if you don't know what you are talking about.

Hmm Evilthought, I think Gene was being colloquial in saying the SB turns FS700 into "a full frame camera," but his explanation of the SB'd lens is technically correct. A focal reducer reduces a lens's focal length. So when combined with SB the 24-105 does "become" a 17-75 f/2.8 lens (if you consider the whole combo one lens), which then on APCS yields back a 35mm-equivalent depth and field of view of a 24-105ish f/4 lens.

 

[alaskacameradude]

That is absolutely incorrect and misinformation. 24-105mm without the speed-booster becomes 36-157mm on APSC (or super 35mm) cameras with about one stop more DOF compared to full-frame still camera. With the speed-booster adapter, the lens retains the same field of view on APSC (or super 35mm) as it would on a full-frame still camera. That is, the lens will stay as 24-105mm (instead of giving 36-157mm field of view).

To the OP: Yes your DOF wil be very similar to what you will get on a full-frame still camera if you are shooting wide open on both cameras (i,e 5D vs FS700 with speedster).

Please don't post misinformation if you don't know what you are talking about.

See, this is why I hate the DSLR revolution, so many people get confused. What Gene is saying, is
that in Super 35 terms (because after all the FS700 is a Super 35 camera NOT a full frame one)
that with the speed booster, the 24-105 F4 now gives a 17-75mm FOV with a F2.8...that is
100% correct if you are talking Super 35 terms.....the lens is wider and faster it
'behaves' like a 17-75 F2.8 would (if there were such a Super 35/APSC lens).

Now you come in talking in full frame terms....and you also are correct. In full frame terms,
the lens without the speed booster is 36-157 and with it is 24-105. But you are using a
different 'baseline' than Gene. You are both right, you are just using a different 'baseline'.

This is a big source of confusion to many. When people are using different frames of comparison,
they are basically defining the exact same thing in terms of what is familiar to them....reminds me
of a story about some blind men and an elephant........

 

[paolo.negro]

Probably I did not get what you mean with "different baseline", to me it's not a point of view matter:
a full frame lens (as 24-105 canon) on a super 35 sensor has a crop factor of 1.5, with speed booster the crop factor is compensated of 0,71.
The calculation should be 24x1.5=36 (full frame lens on super35 without speed booster), 36x0,71=25,56 (full frame lens on super35 sensor with speed booster).
The 24-105 f4 canon lens on a FS700 with speed booster become aprox 25-112mm T2.8

 

[alaskacameradude]

Probably I did not get what you mean with "different baseline", to me it's not a point of view matter:
a full frame lens (as 24-105 canon) on a super 35 sensor has a crop factor of 1.5, with speed booster the crop factor is compensated of 0,71.
The calculation should be 24x1.5=36 (full frame lens on super35 without speed booster), 36x0,71=25,56 (full frame lens on super35 sensor with speed booster).
The 24-105 f4 canon lens on a FS700 with speed booster become aprox 25-112mm T2.8

Its hard to explain, but let me try. I have never shot full frame, because I am not a still photographer.
Cinema cameras (like Red, Alexa, F65) basically shoot Super 35 (or APSC if you are a stills shooter).
I know what a 50mm lens looks like on a Super 35 camera. I know what a 105mm looks like on a Super 35
camera. My baseline is Super 35. 'Crop factor' is just relating one camera chip size to another. For you
full frame shooters, Super 35 has a 1.5 'crop factor'.....so you say things like "a 24mm 'becomes' a 36
mm when used on a Super 35 cam" (I'm not saying YOU say this but full frame shooters in general say
things like this.). In fact it does nothing of the sort, it is still a 24mm, it just looks
different than you are used to because it is what a 24mm lens looks like on a smaller chip camera.
To a medium format shooter, full frame cameras have a 'crop factor'.

So when Gene says the speed booster makes the 24-105 lens look like a 17-75 lens, he is talking
about how it looks in Super 35 terms not in full frame terms. You say it looks like a 25-112, but that
is in full frame terms not Super 35 terms. So you are both right, just coming at it from different
directions. Does that make sense?

 

[aly324]

This discussion has happened many times on the photo forums regarding lenses on cropped sensors. Invariably someone would insist that the (scientifically, optically defined) focal length of a lens never changes. What changes is the "apparent" focal length. But speaking loosely we conflate the two.

In the case of the SB, there's an additional ambiguity as to whether the SB counts as part of the lens. If it does, then it makes sense really to say the 24-105 "becomes" a 17-75. If not, then I guess you'd have to say that the 24-105 is still 24-105, but with a reduced image circle, or something...

 

[aly324]

The focal length of a lens is defined as the distance in mm from the optical center of the lens to the focal point, which is located on the sensor or film if the subject (at infinity) is "in focus".

http://www.dpreview.com/glossary/optical/focal-length

 

[draculr]

Isn't that why we say a 24-105mm lens becomes a 17-75mm 35mm equivalent? It's just that people chop of the "35mm equivalent" part for convenience.

 

[aly324]

Isn't that why we say a 24-105mm lens becomes a 17-75mm 35mm equivalent? It's just that people chop of the "35mm equivalent" part for convenience.

If everyone were using the technical definition of focal length, then "35mm equiv" would be unnecessary. The "35mm equiv" part applies to field of view, which is actually the thing that changes with sensor size.

The 24-105 on cropped sensor still has focal length of 24-105, but a field of view equivalent to a 36-160 lens on a 35mm sensor.

 

[ectobuilder]

Why did the focal length from the MSB increase the focal length? It should decrease it correct? i.e. 150mm = 169mm???? Shouldn't it be LESS than 150mm with the MSB?

 

[paolo.negro]

I think the misunderstand is due to promiscuous lenses use between photo cameras and cine cameras. The 35mm film come before canon, if i remember well more than one century ago somebody decided to use cinema films for still camera, horizontally instead vertically for obviously reason (double sensible area). The result of this is the development of full frame for still and super 35 for cinema (with the same film!!!). Canon 5D did a bridge between this two world, so now everybody use still lenses (designed for full frame) on cine cameras. You right, a canon 50 mm FX lens is always a 50 mm even on a super 35 sensor, but your angle of view it's not the same of cine lens 50 mm designed for a super 35 (as a cooke or similar). The image circle of full frame lens is bigger than a super 35 lens, we speak about crop factor because you don't use the periferical area of the lens, and as a result of this the image has a reduced angle of view. You right, it's incorrect saying that a 200mm become a 300mm, it more like you "crop" the central part of the image.
In any case I use the canon 24-105 with the speed booster and the angle of view I don't think look like 17-75, in my opinion is more like 25-110 (SB compensate the crop factor).
If you use full frame lenses on super 35 you loose angle of view (crop factor) if you use super 35 lenses on full frame you may have vignetting issues, do you agree?
Draculr, maybe this link can be useful for a comparison:
http://www.abelcine.com/fov/

Cheers
p.

 

[jcs]

Relative to FF, FS700+SB has a 1.09 crop. It does not change DOF/focal-length relative to FF, so T-stop should be used instead of F-stop to avoid confusion when discussing increased light gathering performance. Think of the SB as a 2D image shrinker, which shrinks the 2D image after the lens down to fit on the Super35 sensor (thus can't affect DOF).

 

[Gene Sung]

That is absolutely incorrect and misinformation. 24-105mm without the speed-booster becomes 36-157mm on APSC (or super 35mm) cameras with about one stop more DOF compared to full-frame still camera. With the speed-booster adapter, the lens retains the same field of view on APSC (or super 35mm) as it would on a full-frame still camera. That is, the lens will stay as 24-105mm (instead of giving 36-157mm field of view).

To the OP: Yes your DOF wil be very similar to what you will get on a full-frame still camera if you are shooting wide open on both cameras (i,e 5D vs FS700 with speedster).

Please don't post misinformation if you don't know what you are talking about.

Evilthought, I come from a film and video background so I think in terms of Super 35mm FOV. So what I am saying is 100% correct if you think in a Super 35mm / video perspective, which is what applies to most of the people on this forum. Maybe you come from a full frame stills background, so you interpret FOV from a full frame perspective.

In Super 35mm terms, a 24-105mm becomes a 17-75mm. It does NOT take crazy mathematics like what most people are doing, just look through the lens. It's super obvious that it become wider and 1 stop faster. It technical does not become a "full frame" camera, but essentially you get what a 5D would look like if it was Super 35mm.

And JCS, you correct in your T-Stop assessment instead of F-Stop. I just used F-Stop because it's how Metabones markets it probably because it's easier for most people to quickly understand when you say f2.8 to f2.

BTW, Evilthought, you should chill out a bit. Take a vacation, take an anger management class.