A few questions on the FS-700 and Speed Booster - From a C100 user

draculr said:
Yea this is what I'm trying to decide on. I don't care for the 4K at all it's just the slow motion vs a more handhold friendly camera.
I definitely enjoy taking the C100 out of the bag with an IS lens and filming handheld.
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So..? :) I would never change C-100 to FS-700 in your situation! .. why would you pay almost twice for just to play a little with SlowMo ? in any normal filming SlowMo can be only a very SMALL part of it !
FS-700 is a camera for near professional FILM PRODUCTION level ! ... and I was testing Canon C-100 and it's very good camera with a lot of settings and fantastic image quality ! ...very sharp as far as I see!

Don't repeat typical amateur mistake: When 5d Mark II coming out - people like crazy jump to shoot with narrow DOP and all inet getting tons of blur, out of focus "clouds" pretending as "film-looks-like cinema" style...
When FS-700 come out - bunch of SlowMo fill up You Tube and Vimeo as crazy... I cannot imagine Mozart or Beethoven jumping to "new violin or piano" and getting crazy of it :)
If you need SlowMo sometimes - will be much cheaper to RENT FS-700 for that day ! :)
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About all crazy discussion of FOV - FORGET about 24X36mm Canon 5D!!!please ! IT'S OVER! :cheesy: ... in CINEMA term Super35 format IS a "FULL FRAME" .. and lens DO NOT change it's focusing distance!
so 24-105 is still 24-105 ON 24X36 sensor camera, on APS-C camera and on even 4/3 sensor camera! and only when we use a TELECONMVERTERS .. as X1.4 or X2 Canon/Sigma/Tamron, etc.. of Metabones Speed Booster we actually change it..
So 24-105 F4 with MSB becoming 25.9mm -113.6mm F2.8 !!! ( go back to samples I place here and you will see the exact number for each lens!)
my calculation is correct as it's not for APS-C size of sensor, but for FS-700 sensor in 16:9 Aspect Ratio!, which none of you even taken into account! ... :2vrolijk_08:
 
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paolo.negro said:
Gene are you sure the 24-105 with speed booster becomes 17-75 "in Super 35 terms"? In my opinion it become more or less 25-110 (almost the same as on a FF). if you compare with the standard lens SEL 18200 (that "in super 35 terms" is 30,6-340mm as you can see here http://www.sony.co.uk/pro/product/b...tion-picture-camera/nex-fs700e/specifications) you will note that at 24mm is not so wider. Am I missing something?
Cheers
p.
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YES ! .. you "missing something" ! :) ... Kit lens 18-200mm IT IS ALWAYS 18-200mm .. even on the Moon!! :2vrolijk_08:
 
paolo.negro said:
Gene are you sure the 24-105 with speed booster becomes 17-75 "in Super 35 terms"? In my opinion it become more or less 25-110 (almost the same as on a FF). if you compare with the standard lens SEL 18200 (that "in super 35 terms" is 30,6-340mm as you can see here http://www.sony.co.uk/pro/product/b...tion-picture-camera/nex-fs700e/specifications) you will note that at 24mm is not so wider. Am I missing something?
Cheers
p.
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Yes Paolo. I am 100% positive. Read this article by Lensrentals.com.

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/01/metabones-magic

Believe me, they know more about lenses than probably everyone on this forum combined. They say exactly what I am saying. For Super 35mm FOV, a 24-105 that goes on Speed Booster, you multiply it by .71x and you will be 17-75mm and gain 1 stop of light. Still don't believe the lensrentals.com article? Just put the lens on and look through the viewfinder. It's so obvious.

To the original poster, for me I got the camera for the Slow Motion and not 4K. The S-Log has just been a bonus.

One main thing to think about if you are going to switch from a C-100 to FS700 is how much you are into grading footage. IMO, Canon and Black Magic have a fantastic pre-graded look out of the camera that Sony does not have. Like I mentioned previously, FS700 has a really realistic color treatment, nothing stylized like the Canon and the BMC; and all the Cinegammas and S-Log require grading or else it just looks flat and boring (especially S-Log).

But if you like to grade like I do, I prefer the Sony color as it's so neutral and changeable. But yeah, I wish the FS700 did have a nice pre-set that looked something like the 5D3 or the BMC, but unfortunately most of the non-cinegamma pre-sets are very video-ish looking IMO; which is a big disadvantage if you are working with clients who don't want to grade footage.
 
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gene_can_sing said:
Yes Paolo. I am 100% positive. Read this article by Lensrentals.com.

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/01/metabones-magic

Believe me, they know more about lenses than probably everyone on this forum combined. They say exactly what I am saying. For Super 35mm FOV, a 24-105 that goes on Speed Booster, you multiply it by .71x and you will be 17-75mm and gain 1 stop of light. Still don't believe the lensrentals.com article? Just put the lens on and look through the viewfinder. It's so obvious.
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I don't anyone is confused as to what it looks. We're just talking about the phenomenon imprecisely. The focal length of a lens doesn't change with sensor size, so it doesn't make sense to say the lens is 17-75mm "in 35mm terms" or "in super 35mm terms." The 24-105 is always a 24-105, period. If you see the SB as part of a new lens, then the SB+24-105 becomes a 17-75mm lens, period.

Focal length is a physical property of a lens and doesn't change with sensor size. The FOV is what changes with sensor size.

On a super 35mm sensor, a 24-105 lens gives the same FOV as a (nonexistent) 36-157 lens WOULD give on FF 35mm sensor.
On a super 35mm sensor, a 17-75 lens gives the same FOV as a (nonexistent) 25-107 lens WOULD give on a FF 35mm sensor.

The confusion starts when we say imprecisely, colloqially that the 24-105 "becomes" a 36-157, which it doesn't.
Further confusion when SB is thrown in, because it's in fact accurate and not imprecise to say the 24-105+SB "becomes" a 17-75, which it does, as you say and as lensrental.com says.
 
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aly324 said:
I don't anyone is confused as to what it looks. We're just talking about the phenomenon imprecisely. The focal length of a lens doesn't change with sensor size, so it doesn't make sense to say the lens is 17-75mm "in 35mm terms" or "in super 35mm terms." The 24-105 is always a 24-105, period. If you see the SB as part of a new lens, then the SB+24-105 becomes a 17-75mm lens, period.

Focal length is a physical property of a lens and doesn't change with sensor size. The FOV is what changes with sensor size.

On a super 35mm sensor, a 24-105 lens gives the same FOV as a (nonexistent) 36-157 lens WOULD give on FF 35mm sensor.
On a super 35mm sensor, a 17-75 lens gives the same FOV as a (nonexistent) 25-107 lens WOULD give on a FF 35mm sensor.

The confusion starts when we say imprecisely, colloqially that the 24-105 "becomes" a 36-157, which it doesn't.
Further confusion when SB is thrown in, because it's in fact accurate and not imprecise to say the 24-105+SB "becomes" a 17-75, which it does.
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That's exactly what I said. On super 35mm a 24-105mm gives 36-157mm FOV. With the speedbooster, 24-105mm retains 24-105mm FOV.

gene_can_sing, you are incorrect. Please do not keep posting misinformation.
 
Funny some of the responses people have been claiming that we should not think about field of view in 35mm still camera term. That's funny as the only reason speedbooster works is because the lens you are using has a wider image circle made for larger 35mm camera. The speedbooster would not work with the lenses designed with smaller image circle for APSC/ super35mm.

When we think about field of view (not just still but video too) we are always thinking in 35mm film term. This is universally accepted standard on every lens/camera (even cell phonewith camera) sites. Why do people (even in video forums) talk about crop factor if super 35mm was a new standard to define FOV? This is absolutely absurd and gene made it up.

So what I said was absolutely correct. With the speedbooster, 24-105mm retains 24-105mm field of view (instead of giving 36-157mm field of view).
 
Ok, maybe I've get what you mean guys, correct me if I'm wrong:
we all agree on the fact that focal length of a lens doesn't change with the sensor size, it doesn't make sense talk about "full frame terms" or "super 35 terms", and a 24-105 canon lens with speed booster (as a part of it) become a 17-75 mm lens, but used on a super 35 sensor gives the same FOV of a (nonexistent) 25-107 lens on a FF because the 1,5 super 35 crop factor.
SO, answering at the first question of Draculr at the beginning of this tread: is it correct to say that the DOF of a 24-105 canon lens + SB on a FS 700 is like a 16-70mm on a crop?

I've just done right now this lens comparison with my FS 700 (updated 3.0:laugh:):
testDOF.jpg
As you can see the Sony SEL 18200 at 18mm is very close to the Sigma 28mm + SB, that we agreed giving the same FOV of 30mm on a FF.
Gene, do we agree on this? :smile:
Cheers
p.
 
evilthought said:
Funny some of the responses people have been claiming that we should not think about field of view in 35mm still camera term. That's funny as the only reason speedbooster works is because the lens you are using has a wider image circle made for larger 35mm camera. The speedbooster would not work with the lenses designed with smaller image circle for APSC/ super35mm.

When we think about field of view (not just still but video too) we are always thinking in 35mm film term. This is universally accepted standard on every lens/camera (even cell phonewith camera) sites. Why do people (even in video forums) talk about crop factor if super 35mm was a new standard to define FOV? This is absolutely absurd and gene made it up.

So what I said was absolutely correct. With the speedbooster, 24-105mm retains 24-105mm field of view (instead of giving 36-157mm field of view).
Click to expand...

Evil, did you read this article by Lens Rentals on the Speed Booster? I am saying exactly what they are saying in regard to Super 35mm format (which is what matters to the FS700). Lens Rentals is a very well know lens rental house and they know far, far more about lenses than you do, so if I were a 3rd party, I would listen to what they have to say over your opinion any day.

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/01/metabones-magic
 
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evilthought said:
Funny some of the responses people have been claiming that we should not think about field of view in 35mm still camera term. That's funny as the only reason speedbooster works is because the lens you are using has a wider image circle made for larger 35mm camera. The speedbooster would not work with the lenses designed with smaller image circle for APSC/ super35mm.

When we think about field of view (not just still but video too) we are always thinking in 35mm film term. This is universally accepted standard on every lens/camera (even cell phonewith camera) sites. Why do people (even in video forums) talk about crop factor if super 35mm was a new standard to define FOV? This is absolutely absurd and gene made it up.

So what I said was absolutely correct. With the speedbooster, 24-105mm retains 24-105mm field of view (instead of giving 36-157mm field of view).
Click to expand...

also for me on the field is more useful talking about FOV instead focal length. Doesn't mather if I use RED, FS700, 5D etch, my first choice is always the angle of view, then the DOF and the others parameters,
 
gene_can_sing said:
Evil, did you read this article by Lens Rentals on the Speed Booster? I am saying exactly what they are saying in regard to Super 35mm FOV (which is what matters to the FS700). Lens Rentals is a very well know lens rental house and they know far, far more about lenses than you do, so if I were a 3rd party, I would listen to what they have to say over your opinion any day.

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/01/metabones-magic
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...sorry Gene, but I feel Evil is right, in this article they talk about focal lenght (x 0,7) and maximum aperture (+ 1 stop), but they aren't referring to FOV.
Cheers
p.
 
gene_can_sing said:
Evil, did you read this article by Lens Rentals on the Speed Booster? I am saying exactly what they are saying in regard to Super 35mm format (which is what matters to the FS700). Lens Rentals is a very well know lens rental house and they know far, far more about lenses than you do, so if I were a 3rd party, I would listen to what they have to say over your opinion any day.

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/01/metabones-magic
Click to expand...


Yes, I have seen that article before. Quote the part where he is using super 35mm size sensor as the standard to define FOV. Or are you making that up? It's 35mm that is universally accepted as the standard (even for cellphones!)

What that means is that 24-105mm lens retains 24-105mm FOV on smaller APSC/super 35mm sensor. That's the correct description. Of course the lens gains one stop because the same amount of light is concentrated on smaller surface area with the speedbooste That makes it brighter. But that doesn't mean lowlight performance would be better than 35mm camera, as the 35mm camera would have bigger sensor with bigger pixels. These two things will negate each other
 
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evilthought said:
Yes, I have seen that article before. Quote the part where he is using super 35mm size sensor as the standard to define FOV. Or are you making that up? It's 35mm that is universally accepted as the standard (even for cellphones!)

What that means is that 24-105mm lens retains 24-105mm FOV on smaller APSC/super 35mm sensor. That's the correct description. Of course the lens gains one stop because the same amount of light is concentrated on smaller surface area with the speedbooster, but that doesn't mean lowlight performance would be better than 35mm camera, as the 35mm camera would have bigger sensor with bigger pixels. These two things will negate each other
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Evil, you're right. 24-105+SB on cropped sensor retains the FOV of a 24-105mm on FF sensor.

When Gene says the SB turns the 24-105 into a 17-75, he's not talking about FOV, but focal length. He's also right. And he's saying this 17-75mm lens on cropped sensor gives the FOV of a 24-105 lens on FF sensor... i.e. the same thing as you're saying.

You're saying we should all speak in terms of FOV on 35mm sensor. That may be a good suggestion, but that's not what Gene has been doing. (BTW, I also think it'd hard to follow that rule strictly. I mean, it'd require us to call the SEL18200 an "27-300 35mm-equiv FOV lens" for example... It's easier to call it a 18-200 Focal Length lens.)

To me there's no substantive disagreement, just a disagreement of how to describe things.
 
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aly324 said:
You're saying we should all speak in terms of FOV on 35mm sensor. That may be a good suggestion, but that's not what Gene has been doing. (BTW, I also think it'd hard to follow that rule strictly. I mean, it'd require us to call the SEL18200 an "27-300 35mm-equiv FOV lens" for example... It's easier to call it a 18-200 Focal Length lens.)
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We call it 18-200 because that's the focal length on the lens. If 18-200 covered full-frame sensor (they usually don't), the lens would still be 18-200mm. Only when we are talking about FOV, we say 18-200mm on APSC sensor has 27-300 35mm FOV. 35mm is universally accepted as a standard when thinking about FOV. This definition is used even with tiny sensor p&s and cellphones.

RX100 (p&s camera) for example has 10-37mm lens but people think about it as 28mm-100mm FOV

In this discussion, we are talking about lens conversions when using Speedbooster. So 24-105mm Canon lens retains it's FOV (24-105mm) with Speedbooster despite being mounted on a smaller sensor camera.
 
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aly324 said:
Evil, you're right. 24-105+SB on cropped sensor retains the FOV of a 24-105mm on FF sensor.

When Gene says the SB turns the 24-105 into a 17-75, he's not talking about FOV, but focal length. He's also right. And he's saying this 17-75mm lens on cropped sensor gives the FOV of a 24-105 lens on FF sensor... i.e. the same thing as you're saying.

You're saying we should all speak in terms of FOV on 35mm sensor. That may be a good suggestion, but that's not what Gene has been doing. (BTW, I also think it'd hard to follow that rule strictly. I mean, it'd require us to call the SEL18200 an "27-300 35mm-equiv FOV lens" for example... It's easier to call it a 18-200 Focal Length lens.)

To me there's no substantive disagreement, just a disagreement of how to describe things.
Click to expand...

Exactly, you are all saying the same thing, just describing it differently.
 
evilthought said:
Funny some of the responses people have been claiming that we should not think about field of view in 35mm still camera term. That's funny as the only reason speedbooster works is because the lens you are using has a wider image circle made for larger 35mm camera. The speedbooster would not work with the lenses designed with smaller image circle for APSC/ super35mm.

When we think about field of view (not just still but video too) we are always thinking in 35mm film term. This is universally accepted standard on every lens/camera (even cell phonewith camera) sites. Why do people (even in video forums) talk about crop factor if super 35mm was a new standard to define FOV? This is absolutely absurd and gene made it up.

So what I said was absolutely correct. With the speedbooster, 24-105mm retains 24-105mm field of view (instead of giving 36-157mm field of view).
Click to expand...

You are correct that the reason the speed booster works is that the lens is a FF lens and would not
work with a APSC lens. But you are incorrect that 'when we think about field of view we always think
in 35mm terms.' I certainly think in Super 35 FOV cause that's what I'm familiar with, I know
what a 50mm looks like on Super 35, not so much on a FF cause I don't use FF.
I have worked as an AC on big shoots using a RED or an Alexa and the DP does NOT
ever ask me to 'put on the lens that gives a FF field of view of 35mm' or 'I need the lens that looks
like what an 85mm looks like on a FF camera'. They just say 'switch the lens to a 50mm' or
'give me the 105mm'. So for every DP I've worked with, they are not changing everything
to FF terms, they just call the lens what it is.
 
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Serge also mentioned, wanted to make clear. The SpeedBooster on the FS700 with the 24-105 behaves like a 26-114 on a full frame camera (5D3 etc.): 1.09 crop factor (for film guys: focal length multiplier or FLM if you don't like the term crop factor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_factor).

Regarding light performance, the SB definitely increases performance by around 1 T-stop on the FS700. Compared to the 5D3 with high pixel count (not Alexa-style fat pixels), pretty sure the FS700 with SB outperforms the 5D3 in low light (especially with the latest FS700 firmware/hardware upgrade).

This isn't a great test- handheld at my desk, but shows the 5D3 vs. the FS700 with the 24-105: https://vimeo.com/57994446
 
Ok, this discussion went haywire quickly ;)

Does it really matter? The C100 and FS700 both use Super 35mm sensors. If using the same lens you will have the same FOV with both cameras. If you use the SB on the FS700 you will have a wider FOV than the C100. And it will get more light. Thus the FS700 will have more choices when it comes to lenses than the C100. Why complicate it and start talking FF when none of the cameras are FF, what it's like compared to FF is totally irrelevant.

But what I wanna know is: Gene_can_sing, you said it's easy to make the FS700 look like the C100 with grading? Looking at most videos online, the C100 generally feels more filmic to me, but on the other hand it's difficult to find anything shot with the FS700 that is not super slow motion!
I currently have the Sony EA50 but was aiming for the FS700 eventually but seeing footage from the C100 has made me start thinking maybe it's not the best for me. But if it's just a question of picture profiles and grading then the FS700 is the better choice, cause I don't mind grading.

Cheers

DZ
 
Honestly dmitrizigany, a good subtle grade is a lot harder than one thinks. There's a reason why the color shops in Los Angeles charge $1500+ an hour. It's a difficult art form. Most FS700 grades I've seen are just too overdone and saturated IMO, which is why Canon's are nice because the images come pre-graded and they look great.

You can check out my URL below as it has lots of FS700 stuff, some even in regular speed (Gasp) both graded and ungraded. Feel free to ask me any questions. Coming from Canon, I love the FS700.
 
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